Chris Sale traded to Braves

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It looks painfully obvious Sale’s injury risk was a driving factor here, not just part of the calculus. That the main contribution of his replacement is the ability to rack up IP also lends some support to this.

 

In this trade and subsequent transactions, the Sox

 

1. Moved on from Sale, who gave them 150IP in the past 4 years.

2. Replaced him with a pitcher whose thrown nearly 600 IP in that same timeframe

3. And added an MLB-ready 2b who was ranked as highly as #3 in a stacked Atlanta farm system to fill what had been a void in their infield.

 

The one thing they didn’t do was save money; they spent an additional $7mill for these moves.

 

The downsides are multiple, as Murphy’s Law just ran wild on the Sox here. Sale bounced back. The normally durable Giolito got injured. Grissom got off to a slow start and battled injuries and illness. The middle infielders that made him necessary (Valdez, Hamilton) all got off to great starts and leapfrogged him. But not one item on this list looked like any sort of obvious outcome…

 

Spot-on description of the two-steps sideways, two steps back moves of a big-market franchise at a mid-market dance.

 

1. A new CBO completed his predecessor's dismantling of the 2018 statues -- and a half decade of relying on an unreliable ace -- with a big-market move, paying 63% of Sale's salary to play elsewhere.

 

However, points #2 and 3 reek of mid-market hoping...

 

2. Replacing one presumably past-prime pitcher with another -- a guy who'd gobble innings like a glutton at a hot dog-eating contest, acid reflex be damned! (does any reasonable fan really think a "contender" would leave a starter on the mound for 150-180 innings if he gave up five runs a game, like Giolito averaged the past two seasons?).

 

3. Handing a starting position to a new guy who's never even been a regular on a big league roster for an entire season, nor even proven himself as a regular position player for any stretch of time for a Red Sox affiliate...

 

If it was a longshot that Sale would instantly transform back into Cy Young the minute he put on a different uniform, wasn't it the same for Giolito? And Grissom was a total unknown, despite gaudy minor league stats and the Braves' GM praises.

 

Even if the worst possible outcomes didn't occur with all three -- which they basically have -- there are still tons of alternate routes that could've been taken, especially for a hypocritical club that can always afford larger investments, and supposedly bases team-building strategies so much on the odds.

[Hugh2]

If they had signed Giolito AND another legit starter, trading Sale would make more sense, because the numbers would have become unwieldy. I thought that's what they were going to do.

 

But they didn't sign one even after Giolito got injured.

 

That tells you it's all about the budget.

 

I think most of us thought that was the plan.

 

The lowest common denominator lately is that Henry sucks

[notin]

Do we have more depth without him?

 

Well the plan at the time was Giolito was much less likely to get injured. Just because you think she and injury history are irelevant with the health of a pitcher doesn’t change the reality that they are.

 

The plan was to swap out a pitcher who was averaging less than 40 IP per season with one averaging 150 IP per season, and in the process fixing their weakest starting position from 2023. And those two combined upgrades only cost $7mill-ish.

 

Obviously, nothing has worked out so far. But none of that was as obvious in December as you seem to think it was. And this trade has exploded with everything going wrong that could have gone wrong. But no one knew that was going to happen. And their idea was to get more IP plus get a 2b option out of the $27.5mill they spent on Sale.

 

Did you enjoy the depth Sale gave the Sox last year? Because they were reportedly offered a trade in which they gave up Sale’s whole contract at the 2022 trade deadline, and Bloom turned it down. Apparently he wanted a legit prospect for Sale. And then Sale followed up the Sox keeping him by going for a bike ride and ending his season…

[Bellhorn04]

They had a clear shot at signing Imanaga. All they had to beat was 4/53. And they were reportedly very interested. They decided to add to their growing legacy as Interest Kings.

[Hugh2]

Giolito is also more than 5 years younger than Sale.

 

One could be forgiven for thinking he had more of a chance of returning to form. Given Baileys track record, I’m curious what he can do with Lucas next year.

[Randy Red Sox]

Spot-on description of the two-steps sideways, two steps back moves of a big-market franchise at a mid-market dance.

 

1. A new CBO completed his predecessor's dismantling of the 2018 statues -- and a half decade of relying on an unreliable ace -- with a big-market move, paying 63% of Sale's salary to play elsewhere.

 

However, points #2 and 3 reek of mid-market hoping...

 

2. Replacing one presumably past-prime pitcher with another -- a guy who'd gobble innings like a glutton at a hot dog-eating contest, acid reflex be damned! (does any reasonable fan really think a "contender" would leave a starter on the mound for 150-180 innings if he gave up five runs a game, like Giolito averaged the past two seasons?).

 

3. Handing a starting position to a new guy who's never even been a regular on a big league roster for an entire season, nor even proven himself as a regular position player for any stretch of time for a Red Sox affiliate...

 

If it was a longshot that Sale would instantly transform back into Cy Young the minute he put on a different uniform, wasn't it the same for Giolito? And Grissom was a total unknown, despite gaudy minor league stats and the Braves' GM praises.

 

Even if the worst possible outcomes didn't occur with all three -- which they basically have -- there are still tons of alternate routes that could've been taken, especially for a hypocritical club that can always afford larger investments, and supposedly bases team-building strategies so much on the odds.

 

you seem to have forgotten that John Henry no longer operates the Red Sox that way. He is counting on his GM to build a winner through the farm on entry level contracts sprinkled in with a few 1 yr deals on veterans either coming off an injury or a bounce back candidate.

[notin]

I’m not painting you in this corner. I also would have been ok keeping Sale and banking on him staying healthy, I would have preferes it but I understood the rationale behind the trade.

 

With Story, given the hypothetical we all know how the narrative around here goes

 

Actually, I’d say Yoshida would be a better example. If the Sox traded him and his bat was awesome for two years some of the people that bashed him and wanted his contract dumped would be the same ones saying the Sox should never have traded him.

 

I’ll admit, I would have been disappointed if they counted on Sale being healthy again for another year. So I would right now be pleasantly surprised with the results…

[notin]

They had a clear shot at signing Imanaga. All they had to beat was 4/53. And they were reportedly very interested. They decided to add to their growing legacy as Interest Kings.

 

And Imanaga would have been great, although

I admit his success to date is extremely surprising.

 

But adding more pitchers only strengthens the argument that it made sense to try to move on from Sale…

[Bellhorn04]

Well the plan at the time was Giolito was much less likely to get injured. Just because you think she and injury history are irelevant with the health of a pitcher doesn’t change the reality that they are.

 

You'e 100% full of s*** with this. Over and over I have conceded the injury risk with Sale, never once denied it. Go ahead and check my posting history.

 

But you have that straw man built and you're not letting it go. Pathetic.

[Old Red]

You'e 100% full of s*** with this. Over and over I have conceded the injury risk with Sale, never once denied it. Go ahead and check my posting history.

 

But you have that straw man built and you're not letting it go. Pathetic.

 

👍👍👍. That’s NNN for you.🙈🤭

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

you seem to have forgotten that John Henry no longer operates the Red Sox that way. He is counting on his GM to build a winner through the farm on entry level contracts sprinkled in with a few 1 yr deals on veterans either coming off an injury or a bounce back candidate.

 

I haven't forgotten anything -- the first 15 years of Henry's ownership nor the Bloom Era. The latter made me sick from the beginning, and I love Raffy -- but loved Mookie more.

 

Case in point: Schwarber -- one of Bloom's good moves -- and he's just a two-month rental. A big-market Boston club financed by an owner who wants to win would always find a way to keep a home run king in his prime.

 

Now I read where Breslow is driven by the odds -- so fans should expect the Sox to be sellers in the next few weeks. At least we'll have that to look forward to...

[notin]

You'e 100% full of s*** with this. Over and over I have conceded the injury risk with Sale, never once denied it. Go ahead and check my posting history.

 

But you have that straw man built and you're not letting it go. Pathetic.

 

I did.

 

Your viewpoint comes across like you think Sale was just as likely to get injured as anyone else, despite his losing significant time 4 seasons in a row. And in post 663, you state you find injury histories to be all but irrelevant. Exact quote ”What seems clear to me is that past injuries do not necessarily predict future injuries”

 

Also, earlier you downplayed that Sale was 35, after it was pointed out that’s is not uncommon for players at that age often lose effective quickly and without warning. Your response was along the lines of that can happen at any age.

 

I agree budget had an impact, but I totally understand why the Sox felt the need to move on. He was a gamble, pure and simple. Injury histories are absolutely relevant. And his high cost made him a logical candidate to find a buyer.

 

Grissom hasn’t worked out, but I was glad they at least tried to get something for Sale, rather than trading him and less money for a 30yo AAAA player or equivalent.

 

And if Sale’s 2024 was looking like his 2020, 2021, 2022, or 2023, no one is disagreeing with this trade. If you look back at this thread to when it happened, the overwhelming majority of the posts at least understood why it was being done…

[notin]

You'e 100% full of s*** with this. Over and over I have conceded the injury risk with Sale, never once denied it. Go ahead and check my posting history.

 

But you have that straw man built and you're not letting it go. Pathetic.

 

Also in your posting history, you bring up the Dodgers gambling on Glasnow. The Dodgers, very much like the Braves, are loaded with starting pitching in the upper minors, which is why those teams can make those gambles. The Red Sox are not, largely due to questionable drafting by Bloom, Cherington, and (to a much lesser extent) Dombrowski. The Sox just aren’t in the same place…

Edited June 29, 2024 by notin

[notin]

You'e 100% full of s*** with this. Over and over I have conceded the injury risk with Sale, never once denied it. Go ahead and check my posting history.

 

But you have that straw man built and you're not letting it go. Pathetic.

 

Also in post 546, you ask if I don’t think the Sox could have gambled on Sale. I responded that they lost that gamble four times already, referring to him getting injured in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023. Your response? “Makes zero sense.”

 

I’m fairly certain you and I did not view Sale as the same level of injury risk, and you do seem to be strongly downplaying his injury history. At least that’s what is coming across here…

[Randy Red Sox]

I haven't forgotten anything -- the first 15 years of Henry's ownership nor the Bloom Era. The latter made me sick from the beginning, and I love Raffy -- but loved Mookie more.

 

Case in point: Schwarber -- one of Bloom's good moves -- and he's just a two-month rental. A big-market Boston club financed by an owner who wants to win would always find a way to keep a home run king in his prime.

 

Now I read where Breslow is driven by the odds -- so fans should expect the Sox to be sellers in the next few weeks. At least we'll have that to look forward to...

 

i think you are going to be disappointed. Just a day or 2 ago Cora said he was aiming high and not just the 3rd W/C either. With the new format Sox will still be alive at the deadline so they won't be selling and other than their 3 prized prospects don't really have much to offer in trades although I do expect a MINOR addition or 2.

[Hugh2]

i think you are going to be disappointed. Just a day or 2 ago Cora said he was aiming high and not just the 3rd W/C either. With the new format Sox will still be alive at the deadline so they won't be selling and other than their 3 prized prospects don't really have much to offer in trades although I do expect a MINOR addition or 2.

 

The Sox have plenty to offer other than their “3 prized prospects” who shouldn’t even be in the conversation for a deadline rental anyways.

[a700hitter]

How anyone can argue that the Sale trade was anything other than a colossal f*** up is mind boggling. Too funny.And the same goes for the Mookie trade.

[Maxbialystock]

Great discussion about trades in the last 2 or 3 pages!!!

 

I have said repeatedly that giving up Sale--and paying $17M of his salary this season--and signing Giolito for 2 years and $36M and getting Grissom (for Sale) from the Braves were all stupid. But I now agree that six months ago there was indeed a rationale for all 3 moves/trades and that no one could have foreseen that Sale would be so good this season and that Giolito would miss this entire season after undergoing almost-TJ surgery. Correction: I think the Braves saw that Sale could be good this season.

 

And maybe the real point is that, last night's horrible start by Pivetta notwithstanding, the Sox rotation this year has been pretty good without Sale and without Giolito.

 

I also think the recent quote from Cora is important. He wants the front office to make some trades to help this Sox team this season.

 

Right now the Sox offense is ranked 12th in MLB in runs scored and 6th in team OPS. So maybe a good righty bat would help if one is obtainable.

 

However, the Sox team ERA, which was 1st/best in MLB for most of the first two months of this season, is now 8th. So one or more good arms would also be useful.

[dgalehouse]

How anyone can argue that the Sale trade was anything other than a colossal f*** up is mind boggling. Too funny.And the same goes for the Mookie trade.

 

Bingo. A plain, straightforward, common sense statement. No ifs,ands, buts , maybes, might haves, could be's or what ifs. No gobbledygook. Just the plain truth.

[notin]

How anyone can argue that the Sale trade was anything other than a colossal f*** up is mind boggling. Too funny.And the same goes for the Mookie trade.

 

No one is saying the trade has worked out. Just that it made more sense in January when no one knew Sale would actually be healthy and Giolito wouldn’t…

[notin]

Great discussion about trades in the last 2 or 3 pages!!!

 

I have said repeatedly that giving up Sale--and paying $17M of his salary this season--and signing Giolito for 2 years and $36M and getting Grissom (for Sale) from the Braves were all stupid. But I now agree that six months ago there was indeed a rationale for all 3 moves/trades and that no one could have foreseen that Sale would be so good this season and that Giolito would miss this entire season after undergoing almost-TJ surgery. Correction: I think the Braves saw that Sale could be good this season.

 

And maybe the real point is that, last night's horrible start by Pivetta notwithstanding, the Sox rotation this year has been pretty good without Sale and without Giolito.

 

I also think the recent quote from Cora is important. He wants the front office to make some trades to help this Sox team this season.

 

Right now the Sox offense is ranked 12th in MLB in runs scored and 6th in team OPS. So maybe a good righty bat would help if one is obtainable.

 

However, the Sox team ERA, which was 1st/best in MLB for most of the first two months of this season, is now 8th. So one or more good arms would also be useful.

 

This team would be much better without this trade and the subsequent Giolito signing. No one disputes that.

 

But there is a difference between a stupid trade and one that simply doesn’t work out…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Great discussion about trades in the last 2 or 3 pages!!!

 

I have said repeatedly that giving up Sale--and paying $17M of his salary this season--and signing Giolito for 2 years and $36M and getting Grissom (for Sale) from the Braves were all stupid. But I now agree that six months ago there was indeed a rationale for all 3 moves/trades and that no one could have foreseen that Sale would be so good this season and that Giolito would miss this entire season after undergoing almost-TJ surgery. Correction: I think the Braves saw that Sale could be good this season.

 

And maybe the real point is that, last night's horrible start by Pivetta notwithstanding, the Sox rotation this year has been pretty good without Sale and without Giolito.

 

I also think the recent quote from Cora is important. He wants the front office to make some trades to help this Sox team this season.

 

Right now the Sox offense is ranked 12th in MLB in runs scored and 6th in team OPS. So maybe a good righty bat would help if one is obtainable.

 

However, the Sox team ERA, which was 1st/best in MLB for most of the first two months of this season, is now 8th. So one or more good arms would also be useful.

 

Cora made some other comments, too, regarding the future -- he said it was all about his family. Fans might perceive that to mean he will take the most money offered to manage somewhere next year, and that won't be in Boston.

 

Not that the front office or ownership really cares, but what will look worse, just before he leaves: acquiring significant reinforcements next month to help boost Cora into the postseason, or selling impending free agents and letting him finish in last place again?

[Old Red]

Bingo. A plain, straightforward, common sense statement. No ifs,ands, buts , maybes, might haves, could be's or what ifs. No gobbledygook. Just the plain truth.

 

And as time goes on, and Sale continues to wheel, and deal it looks worse, and worse. Where’s Gus (Grissom)?

[Old Red]

Great discussion about trades in the last 2 or 3 pages!!!

 

I have said repeatedly that giving up Sale--and paying $17M of his salary this season--and signing Giolito for 2 years and $36M and getting Grissom (for Sale) from the Braves were all stupid. But I now agree that six months ago there was indeed a rationale for all 3 moves/trades and that no one could have foreseen that Sale would be so good this season and that Giolito would miss this entire season after undergoing almost-TJ surgery. Correction: I think the Braves saw that Sale could be good this season.

 

And maybe the real point is that, last night's horrible start by Pivetta notwithstanding, the Sox rotation this year has been pretty good without Sale and without Giolito.

 

I also think the recent quote from Cora is important. He wants the front office to make some trades to help this Sox team this season.

 

Right now the Sox offense is ranked 12th in MLB in runs scored and 6th in team OPS. So maybe a good righty bat would help if one is obtainable.

 

However, the Sox team ERA, which was 1st/best in MLB for most of the first two months of this season, is now 8th. So one or more good arms would also be useful.

 

Max, Cora has wanted this team to make moves the past 2 seasons as well. The starting rotation that everyone has been touting since the season started, and crowning Bailey as the best has been coming apart. Big Baby Bello, and Pivetta especially have not been that good their last four starts apiece with Big Baby being the worst, so it’s not just Pivetta’s last night’s horrible start. A recent BP game that used 8 pitches, and the BP is getting way overly used too.

[Duran Is The Man]

There was still a real chance of him staying healthy and pitching well again - obviously. The Braves wouldn't have done the deal otherwise.

 

Do we think Trevor Story's career is over because he's had a horrible run of injuries?

 

knowing the stupid motherf***ers running this front office, i fully expect them, after Story is completely healthy, to trade him for a suspect AND pay his salary like Sale.

[Randy Red Sox]

The Sox have plenty to offer other than their “3 prized prospects” who shouldn’t even be in the conversation for a deadline rental anyways.

 

not to get anything decent they don't

[Old Red]

knowing the stupid motherf***ers running this front office, i fully expect them, after Story is completely healthy, to trade him for a suspect AND pay his salary like Sale.

 

And throw in NOshida too.

[Hugh2]

not to get anything decent they don't

 

No one is paying for a 1/3 year rental with a top 40 prospect. That rarely happens.

[illinoisredsox]

And as time goes on, and Sale continues to wheel, and deal it looks worse, and worse. Where’s Gus (Grissom)?

 

The attempted humor in that question is in extremely poor taste.

[Old Red]

The attempted humor in that question is in extremely poor taste.

 

Just the facts Jack, and as usual you added nothing to the conversation. Another goose egg for goose.