Chris Sale traded to Braves

[Dipre]

You seem to be suggesting he's applying a one size fits all approach.

 

All the quotes I see from Bailey emphasize tailoring the approach to each pitcher, finding out what they do well and having them do it a lot.

 

No what I'm implying at all. I'm saying the negatives outweighed the positives. And I agree.

[Bellhorn04]

No what I'm implying at all. I'm saying the negatives outweighed the positives. And I agree.

 

You said "even if what he's doing is working for the Braves, it didn't fit for this system."

 

Sorry man, but I really hate this statement. And I refuse to believe that's the way Bailey works.

[Dipre]

You said "even if what he's doing is working for the Braves, it didn't fit for this system."

 

Sorry man, but I really hate this statement. And I refuse to believe that's the way Bailey works.

 

I didn't mean on pitch selection alone. He's a frail, older guy who looked like he hated the end of his time here, hence the "he's not a robot" comment.

[Bellhorn04]

I didn't mean on pitch selection alone. He's a frail, older guy who looked like he hated the end of his time here, hence the "he's not a robot" comment.

 

Pure unfounded speculation about what he looked like. He said was he was frustrated with his injuries and not living up to his contract.

[Dipre]

Pure unfounded speculation about what he looked like. He said was he was frustrated with his injuries and not living up to his contract.

 

Most of what we say here is pure unfounded speculation. But pure unfounded specualtion becomess more logically acceptable after facts align with theoretical thinking. A new GM and pitching coach came in, and he was traded. If you ask me, it makes sense that it could have been a mutual decision.

[Bellhorn04]

Most of what we say here is pure unfounded speculation. But pure unfounded specualtion becomess more logically acceptable after facts align with theoretical thinking. A new GM and pitching coach came in, and he was traded. If you ask me, it makes sense that it could have been a mutual decision.

 

And my pet theory is that the budget they gave Breslow forced him to free up some money somehow. Giolito was signed just days after they traded Sale.

[Old Red]

And my pet theory is that the budget they gave Breslow forced him to free up some money somehow. Giolito was signed just days after they traded Sale.

 

Boy wouldn’t Sale look good in that rotation right now. Better than using an opener at the very least.

[Bellhorn04]

Boy wouldn’t Sale look good in that rotation right now. Better than using an opener at the very least.

 

Right. And that bullpen game pretty much led to Cora having to use Campbell last night. Fortunately it all worked out for us.

[Dipre]

...and Houck would probably be in the bullpen. So good for him, but also good for us.

 

Also Bellhorn, do realize you keep feeding the forum troll. Always important when formulating opinions.

[Bellhorn04]

...and Houck would probably be in the bullpen. So good for him, but also good for us.

 

Somehow I think Houck would have found his way into the 2024 rotation.

[Bellhorn04]

The good news is, in spite of bombing out so far on the Sale trade and the Giolito signing, Breslow is still looking pretty damn good with his overall performance.

[Dipre]

Somehow I think Houck would have found his way into the 2024 rotation.

 

Pure unfounded speculation about what would have happened.

[Bellhorn04]

Pure unfounded speculation about what would have happened.

 

Tit for tat.

[Dipre]

You stepped right into that one.

[cp176]

Somehow I think Houck would have found his way into the 2024 rotation.

 

I think that you are absolutely right. He has worked too hard not to be right where he is. Look how long it took him to break the unwritten rule about the third time through the lineup. Maturity has helped. He's always had the stuff.

[Dipre]

Yeah you can work as hard as you want, but you also need the opportunity, which is kinda the point we're touching here. In that respect, losing Sale/Giolito might have been somewhat of a blessing in disguise. Then again, we're all speculating here.

[Bellhorn04]

fWAR's at the season's halfway point:

 

Sale 3.0

Grissom -0.9

[Maxbialystock]

Right. And that bullpen game pretty much led to Cora having to use Campbell last night. Fortunately it all worked out for us.

 

The Sox won the bullpen game vs Cincinnati, won the next game (when Campbell gave up 3 ER's vs the Jays), and then lost to the Jays because Bello had an awful start, 7 ER in 2.1 innings. Cora's managing in all 3 games was faultless. Indeed, in the game Bello lost, Winckowski pitching 6 innings, giving up 2 runs and throwing 91 pitches. He is now in the rotation replacing Criswell. So is Bello. And the bullpen is rested.

[Hugh2]

Pure unfounded speculation about what would have happened.

 

 

Yeah I just don't see how we can say otherwise, our opinions are based on the biased view of how this season has unfolded.

 

If we had Sale and Gio and he was healthy he certianly would never of gotten a shot. If he got a spot start in late May maybe he's not stretched out and not as effective and never shines like he has. I think it's a very real liklihood we never see this version of Tanner in an alternate universe.

[Maxbialystock]

fWAR's at the season's halfway point:

 

Sale 3.0

Grissom -0.9

 

Sale's old, Grissom's young, but I agree the deal currently looks really stupid.

On the other hand, the Sox pitching, halfway through the season and without Sale, Giolito, or Whitlock, has the 6th best ERA in MLB, 3.54, which is the lowest Sox team ERA in the John Henry era. However, the 2007 Sox ERA was ranked 2d in MLB and the 2017 Sox ERA was ranked 4th in MLB.

 

I think there can be no question the Sox would be better off with Sale and without Giolito (or Grissom). However, Atlanta was prepared to give Sale a 3 year contract, and I understand the Sox reluctance to do so.

[Bellhorn04]

Sale's old, Grissom's young, but I agree the deal currently looks really stupid.

On the other hand, the Sox pitching, halfway through the season and without Sale, Giolito, or Whitlock, has the 6th best ERA in MLB, 3.54, which is the lowest Sox team ERA in the John Henry era. However, the 2007 Sox ERA was ranked 2d in MLB and the 2017 Sox ERA was ranked 4th in MLB.

 

I think there can be no question the Sox would be better off with Sale and without Giolito (or Grissom). However, Atlanta was prepared to give Sale a 3 year contract, and I understand the Sox reluctance to do so.

 

Atlanta gave Sale a 2 year deal for $38 million, plus they have a club option for a third year at $18 million.

 

The Red Sox are paying $17 million of the guaranteed $38 million.

 

Thus Atlanta has control over Sale for 3 years but are only actually on the hook for $21 million.

[Bellhorn04]

Yeah I just don't see how we can say otherwise, our opinions are based on the biased view of how this season has unfolded.

 

If we had Sale and Gio and he was healthy he certianly would never of gotten a shot. If he got a spot start in late May maybe he's not stretched out and not as effective and never shines like he has. I think it's a very real liklihood we never see this version of Tanner in an alternate universe.

 

I think your hypothetical has to include Giolito getting injured.

 

Besides, they would have seen in spring that Houck had taken a giant leap forward.

[notin]

fWAR's at the season's halfway point:

 

Sale 3.0

Grissom -0.9

 

He had 4 years to do that here. Why couldn’t he?

 

If Sale had shown anything since 2018, don’t you think he’d still be here?

[Old Red]

He had 4 years to do that here. Why couldn’t he?

 

If Sale had shown anything since 2018, don’t you think he’d still be here?

 

A change of scenery has done wonders for Sale, and just like I said when Sale got traded to the Braves I thought he would stay healthy, and have a big year for the Braves. BINGO!

[notin]

A change of scenery has done wonders for Sale, and just like I said when Sale got traded to the Braves I thought he would stay healthy, and have a big year for the Braves. BINGO!

 

Post 15 of this thread, Old Red said

 

“ I’m definitely not sad to see Sale get traded, but I don’t like paying $17M to do it.”

 

 

So now your story is you thought he was not only going to be healthy, but also to bounce back. Yet you still were not sad to see him go.

 

I suppose it’s nice to see you attributing your made up quotes to yourself now instead of making up quotes and attributing them to others…

[Bellhorn04]

He had 4 years to do that here. Why couldn’t he?

 

If Sale had shown anything since 2018, don’t you think he’d still be here?

 

We've already gone over the fact that his fWAR was good when he pitched.

 

2019-2023 298.33 IP 6.7 fWAR

 

Saying he didn't "show anything" since 2018 only clinches that you're not interested in being fair about it.

Edited June 28, 2024 by Bellhorn04

[Old Red]

Post 15 of this thread, Old Red said

 

“ I’m definitely not sad to see Sale get traded, but I don’t like paying $17M to do it.”

 

 

So now your story is you thought he was not only going to be healthy, but also to bounce back. Yet you still were not sad to see him go.

 

I suppose it’s nice to see you attributing your made up quotes to yourself now instead of making up quotes and attributing them to others…

You are such a NUMB Nuts,and it’s really pathetic. We’ve gone over this many times already, and it’s amazing that you mentioned post 15, but you conveniently left out post 333 where I mentioned exactly where I said I thought Sale would stay healthy' and have a BIG year for the Braves. I also mentioned on post 333 that I was told I couldn’t say I thought Sale would stay healthy, because I didn’t say that when he was with the Red Sox, and called him Frail. Post 333 NNN.

[notin]

We've already gone over the fact that his fWAR was good when he pitched.

 

2019-2023 298.33 IP 6.7 fWAR

 

Saying he didn't "show anything" since 2018 only clinches that you're not interested in being fair about it.

 

“When he pitched” is not a qualifier; it’s the point. Ignoring that Sale rarely pitched and considering one 40 inning stretch (that followed missing 8 weeks) is like saying “if you ignore the iceberg, the Titanic was a success!”

 

Also, 40 innings at the end of an off-and-on 5 year stretch is proof he’s back? Do Grissom and Giolito get 40 AB/IP to “dazzle” as well?

[Bellhorn04]

“When he pitched” is not a qualifier; it’s the point. Ignoring that Sale rarely pitched and considering one 40 inning stretch (that followed missing 8 weeks) is like saying “if you ignore the iceberg, the Titanic was a success!”

 

Also, 40 innings at the end of an off-and-on 5 year stretch is proof he’s back? Do Grissom and Giolito get 40 AB/IP to “dazzle” as well?

 

Of course I never said anything about "proof" or "dazzle". Seems like all you have is straw man arguments.

 

What seems clear to me is that past injuries do not necessarily predict future injuries. The Dodgers traded for and extended Tyler Glasnow, who pitched fewer innings than Sale from 2019-2023. We still have hope for Trevor Story. And so on.

Edited June 28, 2024 by Bellhorn04

[notin]

Of course I never said anything about "proof" or "dazzle". Seems like all you have is straw man arguments.

 

What seems clear to me is that past injuries do not necessarily predict future injuries. The Dodgers traded for and extended Tyler Glasnow, who pitched fewer innings than Sale from 2019-2023. We still have hope for Trevor Story. And so on.

 

1. Nice statistical crafting, making sure we count Sale’s 2019 in there. That way we can ignore that Glasgow’s 272 IP from 2020 to 2023 was nearly double Sale’s total over that period.

 

2. So do you now think past injuries are completely unrelated to future injuries? This isn’t a coin flip, where 10 heads in a row means nothing towards the outcome of the 11th flip.

 

Plenty of pitchers are having good years despite injury-plagued pasts. But after this season, should the Sox sign Luis Severino for 4-5 years? Or Max Fried for 7-10? Are you that confident with your 2 pitcher sample size that past injuries are potentially irrelevant?