Chris Sale traded to Braves

[moonslav59]

There are some here convinced what Brez really liked was the price of Gio, compared to what it would cost for more coveted starting pitchers on that free agent market.

 

Maybe what he gave Giolito was all Breslow was allowed to spend on the rotation.

 

And Brez did not easily about to brush off Sale’s recent 4 year history. He thought he was stabilising the rotation, but if failed on 3 sides at once:

Gio out for the yr

Sale pitching like Chris Freakin’ Sale

Grissom looking like Jeter Downs the second

[moonslav59]

Actually when I look back at the first part of this thread moon was the one raising the most doubts about this trade. Largely because he was very dubious they would spend the $10 million they saved.

 

Yes but later I started to see the reasoning of getting 5 years of a promising 2Bman, a position where we were like the worst for 3-4 year, for a guy we rolled the dice and lost for 4 straight years.

 

Of course, in hindsight, the deal failed on many levels, at least for now on some parts, but there was some logic to the choices made.

[moonslav59]

Whoa, Nellie. Count me as one who thought last year that the old Sale was emerging and that he would be pretty decent this year. What kept him out longer than expected was that bicycle accident in ST. But the TJ surgery did in fact give Sale a new lease on life, good enough for the Braves to commit to two more years, 2025 and 2026.

 

He did look more likely to be healthy in 2024 than some previous seasons, but there were just so many times he let us down, that I had reached the point of having very little hope or confidence he’d pitch over 100-120 IP at even a 3.50 ERA. This from a poster who defended the Sale extension for over 2-3 years- remember my point about the 5 year deal still being okay knowing he’d likely just give us 4 seasons.

 

I probably had more faith in Grissom than most, and his book is far from finished (maybe)

 

I can understand how many feel any move giving up a pitcher for an everyday player could make any sense for the Sox, who pretty much had its biggest winter need in the rotation. But, I do think the Sale savings were used to justify the Gio signing. When that part backfired, too, it only made the deal look more stupid.

 

[Hugh2]

And Brez did not easily about to brush off Sale’s recent 4 year history. He thought he was stabilising the rotation, but if failed on 3 sides at once:

Gio out for the yr

Sale pitching like Chris Freakin’ Sale

Grissom looking like Jeter Downs the second

 

 

Gio pitched almost 5 times the amount of innings as Sale the last few years. If his problems were more mental than physical, heck even if they were physical the staff may have seen a mechanical adjustment needed to be made to get him right. I can see their mindset for making the trade. It just looks really bad now that Sale is good and Gio is hurt.

 

If Gio was healthy and pitching like crap, I'd have a much easier time bashing the trade.

[moonslav59]

Gio pitched almost 5 times the amount of innings as Sale the last few years. If his problems were more mental than physical, heck even if they were physical the staff may have seen a mechanical adjustment needed to be made to get him right. I can see their mindset for making the trade. It just looks really bad now that Sale is good and Gio is hurt.

 

If Gio was healthy and pitching like crap, I'd have a much easier time bashing the trade.

 

Agreed, but for some it’s not so much in hindsight. They hated the trade from day one, for various reasons.

 

Even I was highly sceptical, at first but eventually saw the reasoning behind the trade. Of course the trade looks awful now, but it was a clear attempt to add stability to the staff while making a major attempt at fixing the god-awful 2B situation we have had for 3-4 years, all for about $7M net, less if you factor in cutting salary with the Verdugo, Urias and Schreiber deals in the overall scheme of the winter spending budget.

 

(The O’Neill trade added some.)

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I didn't mind the trade, just felt like Chris Sale was done and I thought they got a really good young player who filled a need at 2b. But times have changed--the Red Sox don't seem to be so desperate at 2b anymore, with a number of young players competing for the position in the future: Hamilton, Campbell, Yorke, and Mediroth.

 

Maybe the lesson of this trade is that you never give up on a SP with Sale's background, even if he has been getting injured every single year for the past 4-5 seasons (or so). Starters are just so valuable and so even when you have one who is fragile and getting older, you don't trade him and instead keep him and hope for the best.

 

Also, the story is not yet over. Chris Sale could blow out his shoulder a month from now and miss the rest of the season and no one would be surprised.

 

I'll feel better about the loss of Sale if the Red Sox sign a major free agent starter in the off-season, which they probably plan to do.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Maxbialystock]

I think the Sale/Giolito/Grissom deals demonstrate we still have one of dumbest FO's in MLB.

 

The Braves FO, on the other hand, has been pretty crafty, especially about pitching, where our FO has been consummately stupid in recent years. I include DD in the stupid category because he left CB with Sale and Price who turned out both to be pricey and useless, 2019-2022.

 

Let's not forget that Sale had the right to refuse the trade and therefore insisted that, whoever got him, had to sign him for 3 years, not just 2024. Apparently the Braves found this acceptable and the Sox thought it was so stupid--by the Braves--they agreed to pay $17M to Sale this year to seal the deal. Free at last! Free at last!

 

These days TJ surgery is so common it's being done younger and younger. It's not a matter of whether any more, but when. In Sale's case, there were clear signs in both 2017 and 2018 that something was wrong because both seasons he turned back into a pumpkin in August-September-October. But such was his determination that the need didn't fully show itself until 2019.

 

Last year Giolito was showing signs, late in the season, something was amiss, and the Sox ignored them. At the same time Giolito was struggling, Sale finally showed signs that he just might have a good year in 2024.

 

TJ surgery almost always gives the pitcher new life and additional seasons. Because of the bicycle accident, last year, 2023, became Sale's first real post-Tommy John season. Also, not only does he keep himself in shape, he is probably the most professional pitcher I've seen pitch for the Sox.

 

To me the Braves simply understood Sale better than the Sox did. Plus they may have been helped by John Henry, who quite possibly might have said, "dump him, now."

At the same time the Sox did not recognize the semi-inevitability of TJ surgery for Giolito or any of the signs there was a reason why, with all those good seasons under his belt, he was now completely available.

 

Grissom might turn out to be OK, but his good year was 2022 when his WAR was +0.9 for 41 games. Last year it was -0.7 for 23 games. This year is a dead ringer for last year: 23 games, WAR -0.6. His MLB OPS's have been .792 in 2022, .659 last year, and .367 in 2024.

 

Meanwhile, going into this season the Sox already had Story and their top prospect, Marcelo Mayer, who is reported to be gifted defensively. Plus, as we now know, the Sox also had/have adequate guys like Hamilton, Gonzalez, Valdez, and even Rafaela to fill the two middle infield positions.

[moonslav59]

Max, we’ve had the worst 2B WAR over the last 3-4 years, combined. Let’s not pretend we knew Valdez, DHam and others was going to change that.

 

Let’s not pretend we knew Story was going to play150+ games at SS.

 

Let’s not count on Mayer while saying we were dumb to count on Grissom.

 

Our FO attempted to fix our worst position on paper and felt they stabilised the rotation with a more durable SPer.

 

Gio got hurt makes the FO dumb?

 

Sale surprising everybody in the world makes Brez dumb?

 

Grissom surprising almost everyone makes Brez dumb?

[moonslav59]

Was it wise to sign Richards and Kluber?

 

Both had been great or very good pitchers for extended times, but has been injured often or recently before their signings? Both had hardly pitched in previous seasons.

 

Not many liked the signings at the time, and nobody liked them in hindsight.

 

Had we signed Sale to a $27M/1 deal, last winter, how many posters would have been happy with yet another gamble at nearly 3x what Kluber or Richards cost? Be honest with yourself.

 

How about Sale at $10M/1? (With or without another addition like Gio?)

 

I think the FO got fed up with hoping injured pitchers might regain form AND give 150+ IP in the upcoming season.

 

Hell, even the recent SPer additions that kinda worked out never gave us both.

Wacha and Hill pitched okay but no 150+ IP.

Perez gave us IP but not quality pitching.

Pivetta came closest, but is really just a decent #4.

[Bellhorn04]

Was it wise to sign Richards and Kluber?

 

Both had been great or very good pitchers for extended times, but has been injured often or recently before their signings? Both had hardly pitched in previous seasons.

 

Not many liked the signings at the time, and nobody liked them in hindsight.

 

Had we signed Sale to a $27M/1 deal, last winter, how many posters would have been happy with yet another gamble at nearly 3x what Kluber or Richards cost? Be honest with yourself.

 

How about Sale at $10M/1? (With or without another addition like Gio?)

 

I think the FO got fed up with hoping injured pitchers might regain form AND give 150+ IP in the upcoming season.

 

Hell, even the recent SPer additions that kinda worked out never gave us both.

Wacha and Hill pitched okay but no 150+ IP.

Perez gave us IP but not quality pitching.

Pivetta came closest, but is really just a decent #4.

 

All those guys Bloom signed were dumpster dives.

 

They don't really have much to do with Sale, who was a sunk cost and has to be evaluated as such.

 

Giolito was yet another dumpster dive, or project, considering how badly he pitched the last two months.

 

The issue is that they only signed Giolito, and when he got injured they didn't do anything to replace him.

 

Now we have to pray Houck and Crawford hold up as they pitch more innings than they ever have.

 

Winckowski might step up, we can hope so.

[Dipre]

Giolito had a 3.45 ERA in the first half with 117 K in 112.1 IP, got into a messy divorce, and his numbers plummeted. He also had negative run values on an overused 4-seamer. Dude was Breslow's wet dream.

 

We can argue this until we're blue in the face, but making the right trade and the results of the trade being terrible are not mutually exclusive things.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Giolito had a 3.45 ERA in the first half with 117 K in 112.1 IP, got into a messy divorce, and his numbers plummeted. He also had negative run values on an overused 4-seamer. Dude was Breslow's wet dream.

 

We can argue this until we're blue in the face, but making the right trade and the results of the trade being terrible are not mutually exclusive things.

 

I'm olive in the face, but isn't there also speculation floating around that the increase in TJs could be caused by an industry increase in breaking pitches?

 

Or maybe it's just coincidence that a career workhorse like Giolito suddenly blows out his elbow in his first month throwing for Breslow and Bailey's Offspeed Circus...

[notin]

I'm olive in the face, but isn't there also speculation floating around that the increase in TJs could be caused by an industry increase in breaking pitches?

 

Or maybe it's just coincidence that a career workhorse like Giolito suddenly blows out his elbow in his first month throwing for Breslow and Bailey's Offspeed Circus...

 

I have my doubts breaking pitches have lead to an increase in TJ surgery. Isn’t the procedure also becoming increasingly necessary among position players? They don’t throw breaking pitches…

[Bellhorn04]

Giolito had a 3.45 ERA in the first half with 117 K in 112.1 IP, got into a messy divorce, and his numbers plummeted. He also had negative run values on an overused 4-seamer. Dude was Breslow's wet dream.

 

We can argue this until we're blue in the face, but making the right trade and the results of the trade being terrible are not mutually exclusive things.

 

You're right, but I think it's fair to question their overall approach in assembling the 2024 rotation, and these moves are part of that.

 

They didn't do anything about replacing Giolito, so in effect they decided we would get by with the same rotation as last year, minus Sale.

 

That seems like a recipe for disaster. The disaster has been postponed so far by the performances and health of Houck and Crawford holding up.

[Dipre]

You're right, but I think it's fair to question their overall approach in assembling the 2024 rotation, and these moves are part of that.

 

They didn't do anything about replacing Giolito, so in effect they decided we would get by with the same rotation as last year, minus Sale.

 

That seems like a recipe for disaster. The disaster has been postponed so far by the performances and health of Houck and Crawford holding up.

 

Absolutely. They should have signed more pitching. But we can assess moves individually. I think the trade and sign was fine, the rest of the offseason was not.

[Bellhorn04]

Absolutely. They should have signed more pitching. But we can assess moves individually. I think the trade and sign was fine, the rest of the offseason was not.

 

And my opinion is that because their intentions were obviously not to spend much on the rotation-again-it makes their intentions in trading Sale more questionable.

[Dipre]

And my opinion is that because their intentions were obviously not to spend much on the rotation-again-it makes their intentions in trading Sale more questionable.

 

I don't agree with the Sale part because I personally thought he was done.

[notin]

You're right, but I think it's fair to question their overall approach in assembling the 2024 rotation, and these moves are part of that.

 

They didn't do anything about replacing Giolito, so in effect they decided we would get by with the same rotation as last year, minus Sale.

 

That seems like a recipe for disaster. The disaster has been postponed so far by the performances and health of Houck and Crawford holding up.

 

Just ending the search for pitching at Giolito was a definite problem..

[Bellhorn04]

I don't agree with the Sale part because I personally thought he was done.

 

I'm giving credit to the Braves for thinking that he wasn't.

[Bellhorn04]

Just ending the search for pitching at Giolito was a definite problem..

 

It's the same problem that's been going on since Bloom was hired. They refuse to sign starting pitchers other than dumpster dives/reclamation projects.

[Hugh2]

So Trevor Story is the next Chris Sale right?

 

So lets hope we keep him and he comes back healthy next year and plays like it's 2019

[notin]

It's the same problem that's been going on since Bloom was hired. They refuse to sign starting pitchers other than dumpster dives/reclamation projects.

 

Yes.

 

It’s possible they view starting pitching as the riskiest among MLB investments, and Commodity Boy didn’t like risky investments.

 

But when I saw experienced MLB arms like Lauer, German and Odorizzi going for MiLB contracts, I couldn’t help but wonder why Boston still wasn’t involved…

[notin]

So Trevor Story is the next Chris Sale right?

 

So lets hope we keep him and he comes back healthy next year and plays like it's 2019

 

If we keep him and he comes back, then he definitely isn’t the next Chris Sale…

[notin]

I'm giving credit to the Braves for thinking that he wasn't.

 

Even if they thought he wasn’t done, in no way did the expect him to be as good as he has been…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I have my doubts breaking pitches have lead to an increase in TJ surgery. Isn’t the procedure also becoming increasingly necessary among position players? They don’t throw breaking pitches…

 

I haven't seen that so much, but maybe those who need TJ are regulars throwing irregular? Ly?

 

... not counting Trevor Alternative-Ending Story, who gets hurt doing all kinds of shortstop things.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I haven't seen that so much, but maybe those who need TJ are regulars throwing irregular? Ly?

 

... not counting Trevor Alternative-Ending Story, who gets hurt doing all kinds of shortstop things.

 

I have to reply to myself cuz it would let me edit, but also: the prevailing wisdom the past half century for adolescent ballplayers was a strict avoidance of snapping off curveballs... at least, until their ligaments and tendons were full-grown -- which may have been an old coach's tale (like red meat as a healthy source of protein... or rap "singers").

[notin]

I haven't seen that so much, but maybe those who need TJ are regulars throwing irregular? Ly?

 

... not counting Trevor Alternative-Ending Story, who gets hurt doing all kinds of shortstop things.

 

Bryce Harper just had TJ a couple years ago. Also Aaron Hicks, Didi Grigorius, Corey Seager.

 

I wonder if the increased frequency is more a function of the increased availability of the surgery…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Bryce Harper just had TJ a couple years ago. Also Aaron Hicks, Didi Grigorius, Corey Seager.

 

I wonder if the increased frequency is more a function of the increased availability of the surgery…

 

Probably - remember reading some high school pitchers were getting it done, just to add velo... but not everyone comes back better than ever from surgery. I know at least one kid who was never the same after TJ, and his pro career ended shortly after recovery.

 

There's also only one Doctor Re-attache out there...

[Hugh2]

Probably - remember reading some high school pitchers were getting it done, just to add velo... but not everyone comes back better than ever from surgery. I know at least one kid who was never the same after TJ, and his pro career ended shortly after recovery.

 

There's also only one Doctor Re-attache out there...

 

Not discrediting what you read, but if someone is performing surgery that a kid doesn't require they should be losing their medical license and should be sued for malpractice.

 

From my understanding, the surgery itself doesn't make someone strogner and add velocity but rather the extensive training they undertake to recover from the surgery often adds velocity to a lot of guys.

[notin]

Probably - remember reading some high school pitchers were getting it done, just to add velo... but not everyone comes back better than ever from surgery. I know at least one kid who was never the same after TJ, and his pro career ended shortly after recovery.

 

There's also only one Doctor Re-attache out there...

 

That was an incredibly stupid trend.

 

TJ surgery doesn’t add velocity. It does help some pitchers recover velocity they have lost due to wear and tear on their pitching arm, but that’s NOT the same thing…