Chris Sale traded to Braves

[moonslav59]

People can have their own opinions. Their own beliefs. Their own ideologies. Their own preferences. Their own sources of information. And their own ideas of how to build a baseball team. But they should never let that replace what is the actual reality. And that often is what happens. Call it " context" , " spin" or whatever. But it does not change the reality. You can have a doctorate in physics or you can be a fourth grade arithmetic student, but two and two still makes four. And Chris Sale is a great pitcher, albeit an often injured one. Grissom is young , but is still an unproven prospect/suspect who is not close to being in Sale's league. And that is a reality.

 

Does anyone disagree with this?

[Hugh2]

Okay, pal. We will have to check back in a few years. But today is happening now. The present.

 

Absof***inglutely, right now this trade doesn’t look good. Sale is much more valuable than Grissom.

 

This trade is all about the future, and I think there are some of us who just don’t want to jump on the criticism wagon yet with that in mind.

 

I do wonder if Breslow still makes this trade in hindsight given how Sale, and the Red Sox have performed this year.

[Bellhorn04]

Here's a simple way to express why trading Sale was not a good idea:

 

You don't trade off starting pitching unless you have a major surplus of it. The Red Sox clearly did not have a major surplus of it.

[Old Red]

Absof***inglutely, right now this trade doesn’t look good. Sale is much more valuable than Grissom.

 

This trade is all about the future, and I think there are some of us who just don’t want to jump on the criticism wagon yet with that in mind.

 

I do wonder if Breslow still makes this trade in hindsight given how Sale, and the Red Sox have performed this year.

 

As Cora keeps saying the future is right now 2024. I’d be very surprised if Grissom is penciled in as the Red Sox 2B for the next 5-6 yrs. Mayer is getting closer to possibly sometime next year, and you’ve still got 3 years left of Story Land’s contract. 2024 is what counts now, and 2025 can be worried about after this season is over.

[Bellhorn04]

As Cora keeps saying the future is right now 2024. I’d be very surprised if Grissom is penciled in as the Red Sox 2B for the next 5-6 yrs. Mayer is getting closer to possibly sometime next year, and you’ve still got 3 years left of Story Land’s contract. 2024 is what counts now, and 2025 can be worried about after this season is over.

 

And how exactly does Grissom fit into a 2025 infield that has Story, Mayer and a number of other candidates?

 

This trade makes less sense the more you think about it.

[Randy Red Sox]

And how exactly does Grissom fit into a 2025 infield that has Story, Mayer and a number of other candidates?

 

This trade makes less sense the more you think about it.

 

it was ALL about dumping salary

[Bellhorn04]

it was ALL about dumping salary

 

Randy, that's all I can come up with too. It was all about that precious $10 million.

[Bellhorn04]

With Bello and Pivetta now looking like crap, we're down to Houck and Crawford as reliable starters. And those two are getting into uncharted territory innings-wise. They're already trying to get Houck a bit more rest.

[notin]

Randy, that's all I can come up with too. It was all about that precious $10 million.

 

Well, if it was about dumping salary, why give $17mill and take back Grissom when you can include less money and get back a lesser prospect? Because despite what you think, Grissom was a highly regarded prospect at the time.

 

Also, if it was only about saving money, why spend on Giolito to replace Sale?

 

It seems obvious the Red Sox did not buy into Sale pitching 43 innings without any sort of injury as the indication that his health problems were clearly over and he was going to be able to pitch a full season. With the money to get the better prospect plus the money spent on Giolito to replace Sale, they didn’t save money. In fact, they would up spending about $7mill more…

[Bellhorn04]

Well, if it was about dumping salary, why give $17mill and take back Grissom when you can include less money and get back a lesser prospect? Because despite what you think, Grissom was a highly regarded prospect at the time.

 

Also, if it was only about saving money, why spend on Giolito to replace Sale?

 

Pretty simple. Breslow wanted to sign Giolito, but he couldn't do that, keep Sale and make his other desired moves and stay within the budget he was given.

[notin]

Pretty simple. Breslow wanted to sign Giolito, but he couldn't do that, keep Sale and make his other desired moves and stay within the budget he was given.

 

But why take back Grissom when you can include less money and take back a lesser prospect?

[Bellhorn04]

We all expected them to add starting pitching. What they actually did was subtract one and add one. And the guy they added had a 4.9 ERA over the last 2 seasons.

 

It was one more amazingly underwhelming offseason in the starting pitching department.

 

Of course the rotation got off to a great start this year and Bailey seemed to be a magician. But the magic has been wearing off.

[Bellhorn04]

But why take back Grissom when you can include less money and take back a lesser prospect?

 

Only Breslow knows all the whys and wherefores. Obviously somebody thought highly of Grissom.

[notin]

We all expected them to add starting pitching. What they actually did was subtract one and add one. And the guy they added had a 4.9 ERA over the last 2 seasons.

 

It was one more amazingly underwhelming offseason in the starting pitching department.

 

Of course the rotation got off to a great start this year and Bailey seemed to be a magician. But the magic has been wearing off.

 

 

So what was the point of dropping Sale to add Giolito? Clearly not to save money, since keeping Sale was $7mill cheaper.

 

It seems to obvious to point out, but just because WE expected them to add starting pitching didn’t mean it was on their radar. And this Sale/Giolito swap also points out they really didn’t add anything. They swapped out two plsyers and spent money to do it…

Edited June 29, 2024 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

Red Sox team ERA by month:

 

March-April 2.62

May 4.12

June 4.33

[Bellhorn04]

So what was the point of dropping Sale to add Giolito? Clearly not to save money, since keeping Sale was $7mill cheaper…

 

Somebody really like Giolito.

 

Sale's injury risk was obviously part of the calculus.

 

I think the spreadsheets had the final say.

[notin]

Only Breslow knows all the whys and wherefores. Obviously somebody thought highly of Grissom.

 

And that’s fine. But it also means this trade was not solely about saving money. They could have traded Sale for much less and included less cash, right?

[Bellhorn04]

And that’s fine. But it also means this trade was not solely about saving money. They could have traded Sale for much less and included less cash, right?

 

Not solely, no. But I think the budget played a very big role.

 

We kept hearing the stories about the Red Sox having to shed payroll before they could sign Player X.

 

And Sam Kennedy practically bragged that the payroll was going to be lower than the previous year.

[notin]

Somebody really like Giolito.

 

Sale's injury risk was obviously part of the calculus.

 

I think the spreadsheets had the final say.

 

It looks painfully obvious Sale’s injury risk was a driving factor here, not just part of the calculus. That the main contribution of his replacement is the ability to rack up IP also lends some support to this.

 

In this trade and subsequent transactions, the Sox

 

1. Moved on from Sale, who gave them 150IP in the past 4 years.

2. Replaced him with a pitcher whose thrown nearly 600 IP in that same timeframe

3. And added an MLB-ready 2b who was ranked as highly as #3 in a stacked Atlanta farm system to fill what had been a void in their infield.

 

The one thing they didn’t do was save money; they spent an additional $7mill for these moves.

 

The downsides are multiple, as Murphy’s Law just ran wild on the Sox here. Sale bounced back. The normally durable Giolito got injured. Grissom got off to a slow start and battled injuries and illness. The middle infielders that made him necessary (Valdez, Hamilton) all got off to great starts and leapfrogged him. But not one item on this list looked like any sort of obvious outcome…

Edited June 29, 2024 by notin

[notin]

Not solely, no. But I think the budget played a very big role.

 

We kept hearing the stories about the Red Sox having to shed payroll before they could sign Player X.

 

And Sam Kennedy practically bragged that the payroll was going to be lower than the previous year.

 

Explain to me how trading Sale and singing Giolito saved money?

 

The Sox are playing Sale and Giolito a total of about $35mill this season. Before the deal, that number was only about $27.5 mill…

[Bellhorn04]

Explain to me how trading Sale and singing Giolito saved money?

 

The Sox are playing Sale and Giolito a total of about $35mill this season. Before the deal, that number was only about $27.5 mill…

 

The point is that with the budget he was given, Breslow couldn't both keep Sale and sign Giolito. It's not that complicated.

[Hugh2]

The point is that with the budget he was given, Breslow couldn't both keep Sale and sign Giolito. It's not that complicated.

 

I don’t think it was just about Giolito over Sale. There wasn’t a great market for up the middle defenders and the Sox had a gaping hole at 2nd base.

 

Breslow and Bailey probably thought they could get Giolito right, and given their track record one has to wonder how good he may have been this year if he didn’t get hurt.

[notin]

Only Breslow knows all the whys and wherefores. Obviously somebody thought highly of Grissom.

 

Most of the main points look painfully obvious.

 

If the Sox had as much faith in Sale’s 40IP August/September last year as you think they should have, do you think they really trade him and sign Giolito?

 

They had no faith in him bouncing back, and he gave them very little reason to have any in recent years…

[Bellhorn04]

I don’t think it was just about Giolito over Sale. There wasn’t a great market for up the middle defenders and the Sox had a gaping hole at 2nd base.

 

Yeah, but Grissom was and is a prospect, and you said it was about the future, so it's all kind of muddled.

[notin]

The point is that with the budget he was given, Breslow couldn't both keep Sale and sign Giolito. It's not that complicated.

 

But Giolito made things MORE EXPENSIVE. Why was Giolito involved in this at all?

[Bellhorn04]

Most of the main points look painfully obvious.

 

If the Sox had as much faith in Sale’s 40IP August/September last year as you think they should have, do you think they really trade him and sign Giolito?

 

They had no faith in him bouncing back, and he gave them very little reason to have any in recent years…

 

I don't blame them for not having faith. I blame them for throwing away the possibility of him having a decent season.

 

Like I said, it's not like they had a surplus of reliable starters.

[Bellhorn04]

But Giolito made things MORE EXPENSIVE. Why was Giolito involved in this at all?

 

Giolito was projected as an innings eater, which the staff definitely needed.

[notin]

Yeah, but Grissom was and is a prospect, and you said it was about the future, so it's all kind of muddled.

 

It all makes a ton of sense when you admit they really had no reason to have faith in Sale. None of us did (except cp). Because every Spting Training since 2020, I’ve said the upcoming season depends heavily on Sale, and 100% of the responses said “you can’t count on Sale.”

 

If Sale had been pitching, they don’t trade him and don’t sign Giolito…

[notin]

Giolito was projected as an innings eater, which the staff definitely needed.

 

Did they need one if Sale was healthy?

[Bellhorn04]

Did they need one if Sale was healthy?

 

Time to say it again: You can never have enough pitching.

 

There's not a pitcher in MLB who is guaranteed to get through a whole season healthy and effective.

 

The more you have the better your chances. Again, it's not complicated stuff.