Chris Sale traded to Braves

[notin]

Giolito was projected as an innings eater, which the staff definitely needed.

 

Did they need one if Sale was healthy?

 

Sale had multiple chances and simply never stayed on the mound. Sure he gave them 40 IP at the end of 2023. He did the same thing in 2021, and then followed up the next year with FIVE INNINGS PITCHED for the season.

 

And all this started when he was 30. Sale is 35 now. Why would anyone think his inability to stay healthy at ages 30 through 34 would suddenly disappear at 35?

 

If the Sox brought back Rick Porcello, you’d probably think “this guy hasn’t pitched in years and is getting older.” And if you didn’t think that, I certainly would have. But he’s also only pitched about 90 less IP than Sale in the previous 4 seasons and is only 3 months older. Also, he hasn’t been on a team since 2020. (And if 2020 was a full season, Porcello’s total IP in the last 4 years very likely exceeds Sale’s total.)

[Hugh2]

Yeah, but Grissom was and is a prospect, and you said it was about the future, so it's all kind of muddled.

 

Yes, I would expect any trade for a young player is about the future, that’s sort of the point. What muddles the waters is Grissom getting hurt this year.

 

I also wonder what the Sox expected to get back for Sale if they figured him to be a good pitcher with one year of control left in a year they didn’t figure to compete AND he could likely get injured.

 

Grissom is probably the expected to be an all star caliber 2nd and anything short is a bust; while I definitely had(have) my hopes on his ceiling I think that’s unfair to him.

 

Atlanta, with probably the deepest position roster in baseball, was in the midst of turning Grissom into a utility type . If Story comes back and healthy and Mayers ready that may be what Grissom is here.

 

But if he’s healthy and can hit that’s fine…that’s fine if he can do that for 5 years. Maybe even fill in a season or two here and there when a guy goes down. A la Brock Holt.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, I would expect any trade for a young player is about the future, that’s sort of the point. What muddles the waters is Grissom getting hurt this year.

 

I also wonder what the Sox expected to get back for Sale if they figured him to be a good pitcher with one year of control left in a year they didn’t figure to compete AND he could likely get injured.

 

They had two years of control over Sale.

[notin]

Time to say it again: You can never have enough pitching.

 

There's not a pitcher in MLB who is guaranteed to get through a whole season healthy and effective.

 

The more you have the better your chances. Again, it's not complicated stuff.

 

Agreed. You can never have enough pitching.

 

So why are you advocating tying up $27.5mill for a pitcher who has pitched 150 IP in the past 4 years? Wouldn’t it make sense to allocate that money to someone more likely to actually pitch?

 

Sale has been paid about $800K per inning for 4 seasons now. What part of this says it makes sense to hope he gets healthy and bounces back effectively?

[notin]

They had two years of control over Sale.

 

I’m not sure that was viewed as positively as you think it is.

 

If he’s healthy, it’s great. If he keeps getting hurt, it’s not a bonus…

[Bellhorn04]

Did they need one if Sale was healthy?

 

Sale had multiple chances and simply never stayed on the mound. Sure he gave them 40 IP at the end of 2023. He did the same thing in 2021, and then followed up the next year with FIVE INNINGS PITCHED for the season.

 

And all this started when he was 30. Sale is 35 now. Why would anyone think his inability to stay healthy at ages 30 through 34 would suddenly disappear at 35?

 

There was still a real chance of him staying healthy and pitching well again - obviously. The Braves wouldn't have done the deal otherwise.

 

Do we think Trevor Story's career is over because he's had a horrible run of injuries?

[Hugh2]

They had two years of control over Sale.

 

Let’s be honest bro. No one on earth was talking about exercising that option pre 2024.

[Hugh2]

There was still a real chance of him staying healthy and pitching well again - obviously. The Braves wouldn't have done the deal otherwise.

 

Do we think Trevor Story's career is over because he's had a horrible run of injuries?

 

Wouldn’t Story be the new Sale?

 

If Sale can do it, so can Story. Story can come back and play like an All Star next year.

 

Who complains?????

[Bellhorn04]

Agreed. You can never have enough pitching.

 

So why are you advocating tying up $27.5mill for a pitcher who has pitched 150 IP in the past 4 years? Wouldn’t it make sense to allocate that money to someone more likely to actually pitch?

 

Sale has been paid about $800K per inning for 4 seasons now. What part of this says it makes sense to hope he gets healthy and bounces back effectively?

 

You're just hammering away at the same basic point, which has already been conceded many times over.

 

What about the Story comparison - are you hoping he gets healthy again, or do you wish they would unload him and eat a big chunk of his salary?

[Bellhorn04]

Wouldn’t Story be the new Sale?

 

If Sale can do it, so can Story. Story can come back and play like an All Star next year.

 

Who complains?????

 

Exactly my point, Hugh. You hope and you cross your fingers.

[Bellhorn04]

Let’s be honest bro. No one on earth was talking about exercising that option pre 2024.

 

Of course not. Team options are advantageous to the team precisely because they can take a wait and see approach.

[notin]

Exactly my point, Hugh. You hope and you cross your fingers.

 

If the Sox traded Story this off-season, and Story bounced back with a 4 or 5 fWAR season, what would your opinion be?

[Hugh2]

Exactly my point, Hugh. You hope and you cross your fingers.

 

I also have higher expectations of the Sox competing in 2025

[notin]

There was still a real chance of him staying healthy and pitching well again - obviously. The Braves wouldn't have done the deal otherwise.

 

Do we think Trevor Story's career is over because he's had a horrible run of injuries?

 

I will admit my faith in Story dwindles every season. And he’s a shortstop, where injuries end fewer careers than pitchers. He’s also not even 35 yet, when production can fall off rapidly and without warning…

[Bellhorn04]

If the Sox traded Story this off-season, and Story bounced back with a 4 or 5 fWAR season, what would your opinion be?

 

Explain the pertinence of the question.

[Bellhorn04]

I will admit my faith in Story dwindles every season. And he’s a shortstop, where injuries end fewer careers than pitchers. He’s also not even 35 yet, when production can fall off rapidly and without warning…

 

It can fall off rapidly and without warning at any age...

[Hugh2]

Of course not. Team options are advantageous to the team precisely because they can take a wait and see approach.

 

Which also illustrates the fact that 2024 isn’t over. Still plenty of time for Sale to get hurt.

 

Also, given how little he has pitched over the last few years due to injuries one has to wonder how many miles he can put on that arm in a single season before it blows up again.

 

Of course, if he makes it through this year and has a full healthy offseason one might feel more optimistic about his 2025

[notin]

You're just hammering away at the same basic point, which has already been conceded many times over.

 

What about the Story comparison - are you hoping he gets healthy again, or do you wish they would unload him and eat a big chunk of his salary?

 

I’m hoping Story gets healthy, but my faith in him being healthy for 2025 is less than it was for 2024, which was less than it was for 2023, which was less than it was for 2022, which was where is all began.

 

If the Sox moved on from Story, I would understand why. I might not like it, but I would certainly understand it. Just like I understand why they moved on from Sale…

Edited June 29, 2024 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

Which also illustrates the fact that 2024 isn’t over. Still plenty of time for Sale to get hurt.

 

As with every player in the game.

[notin]

It can fall off rapidly and without warning at any age...

 

I bet I can name more 35yos where it happened than you can name 25yos who did…

[Hugh2]

If the Sox traded Story this off-season, and Story bounced back with a 4 or 5 fWAR season, what would your opinion be?

 

Well we know WHO would say they called Trevor a Bastion of health retroactively

[notin]

As with every player in the game.

 

Are all your arguments going to hinge on Sale being just as likely to get injured as any player in MLB? And that injury history is meaningless?

[Bellhorn04]

I’m hoping Story gets healthy, but my faith in him being healthy for 2024 is less than it was for 2023, which was less than it was for 2022.

 

If the Sox moved on from Story, I would understand why. I might not like it, but I would certainly understand it. Just like I understand why they moved on from Sale…

 

Moving on from Sale would have made sense if they had a surplus in starting pitching. But of course they don't.

[Hugh2]

As with every player in the game.

 

True, but Sale is 35, a pitcher, and has an extensive injury history. The risk of injury for him is much higher than average.

[Bellhorn04]

Well we know WHO would say they called Trevor a Bastion of health retroactively

 

So it's time for the real ******** to start.

[Hugh2]

So it's time for the real ******** to start.

 

I’m not painting you in this corner. I also would have been ok keeping Sale and banking on him staying healthy, I would have preferes it but I understood the rationale behind the trade.

 

With Story, given the hypothetical we all know how the narrative around here goes

 

Actually, I’d say Yoshida would be a better example. If the Sox traded him and his bat was awesome for two years some of the people that bashed him and wanted his contract dumped would be the same ones saying the Sox should never have traded him.

[Bellhorn04]

If they had signed Giolito AND another legit starter, trading Sale would make more sense, because the numbers would have become unwieldy. I thought that's what they were going to do.

 

But they didn't sign one even after Giolito got injured.

 

That tells you it's all about the budget.

[notin]

Moving on from Sale would have made sense if they had a surplus in starting pitching. But of course they don't.

 

 

I think the plan was to use Sale’s salary to increase the volume of starting pitching, which they did.

 

Having a surplus of starting pitching was why Atlanta was in a better position to take on Sale, despite your refusal to believe it. If Boston kept Sale and he went down again, who steps up? Atlanta had Bryce Elder, Spencer Schwellenback, Dylan Dodd, AJ Smith-Shawver, Hurston Waldrep, etc. all in AAA waiting to step up.

 

Let this fact about the comparative depth of both teams - the Braves had more MLB All Stars pitching in AAA at the start of the year than the Red Sox had in Boston.

 

If the Sox kept Sale, they feared their depth below him made them too exposed…

[notin]

If they had signed Giolito AND another legit starter, trading Sale would make more sense, because the numbers would have become unwieldy.

 

But they didn't sign one even after Giolito got injured.

 

That tells you it's all about the budget.

 

Yes. They had budget limitations. That’s why gambling on Sale was not the obvious solution…

[Bellhorn04]

I think the plan was to use Sale’s salary to increase the volume of starting pitching, which they did.

 

Having a surplus of starting pitching was why Atlanta was in a better position to take on Sale, despite your refusal to believe it. If Boston kept Sale and he went down again, who steps up? Atlanta had Bryce Elder, Spencer Schwellenback, Dylan Dodd, AJ Smith-Shawver, Hurston Waldrep, etc. all in AAA waiting to step up.

 

Let this fact about the comparative depth of both teams - the Braves had more MLB All Stars pitching in AAA at the start of the year than the Red Sox had in Boston.

 

If the Sox kept Sale, they feared their depth below him made them too exposed…

 

Do we have more depth without him?