Chris Sale traded to Braves

[notin]

Your welcome! Your diagnosis was he was going through a divorce, so how long did you examine Gio?

 

Oh I just acknowledged the possibility, as did a few others. I never said anything was “most likely”, especially on a player who was examined by two teams in the second half of last season alone…

[Bellhorn04]

Did you feel this way when the Sox dealt Price?

 

Not about Mookie, whom we all wanted. Just Price…

 

I was ambivalent about trading Price. But I was too much in shock about trading Betts to devote much of my attention to the Price part, honestly.

 

One thing I'll always remember is that Kimmi, who hates bloated contracts more than anyone, didn't understand trading Price. Why? Because we needed the pitching. My guess is she didn't like the Sale trade much either, for the same reason.

[Old Red]

Oh I just acknowledged the possibility, as did a few others. I never said anything was “most likely”, especially on a player who was examined by two teams in the second half of last season alone…

 

The difference is that I said most likely after the fact long after he had surgery where you did it in real time when he was signed, and before surgery was needed. The divorce theory was just what some wanted it to be instead of a physical problem on why Gio was pitching HR derby. All for the low, low price of $38M🙈🤭🤮

[notin]

I was ambivalent about trading Price. But I was too much in shock about trading Betts to devote much of my attention to the Price part, honestly.

 

One thing I'll always remember is that Kimmi, who hates bloated contracts more than anyone, didn't understand trading Price. Why? Because we needed the pitching. My guess is she didn't like the Sale trade much either, for the same reason.

 

 

I can understand sort of blowing past Price. If anything, the inclusion of Price dragged down Mookie.

 

There was one big difference between Price and Sale before their respective trades - Price was actually pitching. In his 4 years prior to being dealt, Ptice through nearly 4 times as many innings as Sale did in a corresponding stretch. Both had similar seasons before the trade. But in his last 3 years after being dealt, Price only threw some 20 more IP than Sale has already given Atlanta.

 

Trading Price didn’t come back to haunt them. (This cannot be said for the rest of that trade.)

 

Sale was much less risky to deal. It just blew up. There’s a reason if you go back through this thread, very few people actually thought trading Sale was a bad idea at the time. Including you…

Edited July 1, 2024 by notin

[Hugh2]

A medical diagnosis!! We are all so glad you took time out of your busy schedule to examine Mr. Giolito…

 

As someone who went thru a divorce I can personally attest to how much of an effect it can have on a man. How anyone can discount that? I just don't know.

 

It's also well known that every single mlb deal that ever happens requires a physical. Giolito has had an elbow injury that has been pre-existing dating back to HS, if there was a change in there they would have seen it.

 

If he blew his elbow out we would have known about it earlier than March of 2024. THere's no way he tore that thing and pitched/worked out on it for the next 6-7 months. You'd expect a guy who is a gym rat to have some basic knowledge of human physiology and be able to understand that......but here we are.

 

Also, if Giolito had torn his elbow in 2023 and that is what caused his 2nd half regression there would be a drop in his velocity. HIS VELOCITY ACTUALLY WENT UP.

 

The facts support the exact opposite of what some posters are implying. Pitchers get injured, it happens today more than any other day. When one is a donny downer, they tend to find the alternative facts they need to support their theories to critisize the people they want.

[notin]

The difference is that I said most likely after the fact long after he had surgery where you did it in real time when he was signed, and before surgery was needed. The divorce theory was just what some wanted it to be instead of a physical problem on why Gio was pitching HR derby. All for the low, low price of $38M

 

Yes it was all after the fact, which of course is true about his divorce stuff as well. Not like any of us predicted it.

 

But Giolito pitched for two teams after July last year and then reached free agency. That’s a lot of medical exams in a short time. Health when the Sox signed him should have been well documented…

[Hugh2]

Giolito's velocity went up at the end of last year. End of argument, anyone implying he blew his elbow out and pitched worse all while magically somehow pitching faster is just not facing the facts of the matter.

[Bellhorn04]

Sale was much less risky to deal. It just blew up. There’s a reason if you go back through this thread, very few people actually thought trading Sale was a bad idea at the time. Including you…

 

I said little about this trade at the time because I was waiting to see what other moves were coming. I assumed this meant we would making some significant additions to the rotation. They did tell us they would be. I never dreamed it would only be Giolito. And I said if they signed Giolito I would puke.

[Bellhorn04]

Actually when I look back at the first part of this thread moon was the one raising the most doubts about this trade. Largely because he was very dubious they would spend the $10 million they saved.

[Old Red]

Giolito's velocity went up at the end of last year. End of argument, anyone implying he blew his elbow out and pitched worse all while magically somehow pitching faster is just not facing the facts of the matter.

 

Number 1 it’s not an argument much to you trying to make it one. Just theories being thrown out there. Maybe Gio was just practicing to be a HR derby pitcher with the coincidence that he was going through a divorce. At any rate Brez saw fit to pay him $38M. What a deal. As always so nice to hear from you.🤫

[Old Red]

Actually when I look back at the first part of this thread moon was the one raising the most doubts about this trade. Largely because he was very dubious they would spend the $10 million they saved.

 

I keep hearing about $10M that was saved, but paying Gio $18M, and Sale $17M doesn’t seem like a savings to me.

[notin]

Actually when I look back at the first part of this thread moon was the one raising the most doubts about this trade. Largely because he was very dubious they would spend the $10 million they saved.

 

Post 130, you clearly state you were on board because you liked that they acquired Grissom and it wasn’t a straight sales dump.

 

And that’s fine. That’s how I felt about the deal. And almost everyone else, with very few notable exceptions. It seemed like a good plan,and a low risk plan, even if Giolito was taking steps backwards.

 

But Murphy’s Law just ran amok on it…

Edited July 1, 2024 by notin

[notin]

I keep hearing about $10M that was saved, but paying Gio $18M, and Sale $17M doesn’t seem like a savings to me.

 

That’s why I can’t call it was a salary dump. This deal increased spending slightly…

[Bellhorn04]

Post 130, you clearly state you were on board because you liked that they acquired Grissom and it wasn’t a straight sales dump.

 

Yes I did. I also thought at the time full throttle was a real thing, that the hype about Grissom was well founded, and that there were some big moves yet to come. If I knew at the time the sum total of starter acquisitions would be Giolito, my opinion of this move would have been much different, I believe.

[Bellhorn04]

That’s why I can’t call it was a salary dump. This deal increased spending slightly…

 

You're combining two deals into one.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Even though Gio didn't earn a penny pitching for the Red Sox this season, he gets to opt-in and stick around for another year.

 

Divorce sucks so much, maybe marriage contracts should include an opt-in clause.

 

The next time someone wants to kick me out of the house, I'm going to opt-in. Maybe she'll let me earn back a starting position... after a rehab assignment, of course. Wait a minute...

[Hugh2]

That’s why I can’t call it was a salary dump. This deal increased spending slightly…

 

The problem with this argument is you can attribute that money to anything. Maybe they used that money saved to extend Bello, or Rafaela? If it was done last year we could of said the money was used to sign Yoshida OR Turner or Jansen.

 

I think it should be good enough just to say that Giolito has turned out to be a bad signing.

[notin]

Yes I did. I also thought at the time full throttle was a real thing, that the hype about Grissom was well founded, and that there were some big moves yet to come. If I knew at the time the sum total of starter acquisitions would be Giolito, my opinion of this move would have been much different, I believe.

 

Ok.

 

In hindsight, this deal has blown up in multiple ways. I had a good amount of faith in Crawford, Houck and Bello that to me, just adding an innings eater was enough to give this rotation a serious boost. So I liked this deal a lot more when I thought Giolito would pitch, Sale probably wouldn’t, and Grissom would step right in.

 

I will say that despite his rocky start, Grissom appears to still be a favorite of Lou Merloni’s, not only as a player but as a person. And even if 2024 is a wasted year, he still might be worthwhile…

[notin]

The problem with this argument is you can attribute that money to anything. Maybe they used that money saved to extend Bello, or Rafaela? If it was done last year we could of said the money was used to sign Yoshida OR Turner or Jansen.

 

I think it should be good enough just to say that Giolito has turned out to be a bad signing.

 

I was just talking about saying $10mil from Sale and then spending an additional $18mill just to replace Sale…

[notin]

You're combining two deals into one.

 

Yes, because I’m theorizing that they are connected…

[Old Red]

That’s why I can’t call it was a salary dump. This deal increased spending slightly…

 

When I first heard about the trade I didn’t know the Red Sox were paying Atlanta $17M, but after learning about the $17M it didn’t make sense to me financially when I thought the Red Sox were watching what came out of JH wallet.

[Bellhorn04]

I would love to know what some of the front office conversations about this were like. I'm guessing someone raised the possibility of Sale doing exactly what he's doing, and is quietly in "told you so" mode these days...

[notin]

When I first heard about the trade I didn’t know the Red Sox were paying Atlanta $17M, but after learning about the $17M it didn’t make sense to me financially when I thought the Red Sox were watching what came out of JH wallet.

 

I wasn’t surprised. Even in a lot of “salary dump” deals, the team trading the player away still pays the larger share. They take their savings where they can…

[notin]

I would love to know what some of the front office conversations about this were like. I'm guessing someone raised the possibility of Sale doing exactly what he's doing, and is quietly in "told you so" mode these days...

 

Oh no doubt.

 

And how will it impact further salary dump trades? Because what not many are discussing is just how ridiculously improbable this Sale bounce back has been…

[Old Red]

I wasn’t surprised. Even in a lot of “salary dump” deals, the team trading the player away still pays the larger share. They take their savings where they can…

 

I don’t think they sign Gio without trading Sale, so that amounts to around $35M compared to just keeping Sale at $27M.

[Bellhorn04]

Oh no doubt.

 

And how will it impact further salary dump trades? Because what not many are discussing is just how ridiculously improbable this Sale bounce back has been…

 

I don't think the Braves believed that him having a good season was ridiculously improbable, but I'm sure he's exceeding their expectations.

[Maxbialystock]

Oh no doubt.

 

And how will it impact further salary dump trades? Because what not many are discussing is just how ridiculously improbable this Sale bounce back has been…

 

Whoa, Nellie. Count me as one who thought last year that the old Sale was emerging and that he would be pretty decent this year. What kept him out longer than expected was that bicycle accident in ST. But the TJ surgery did in fact give Sale a new lease on life, good enough for the Braves to commit to two more years, 2025 and 2026.

[notin]

Whoa, Nellie. Count me as one who thought last year that the old Sale was emerging and that he would be pretty decent this year. What kept him out longer than expected was that bicycle accident in ST. But the TJ surgery did in fact give Sale a new lease on life, good enough for the Braves to commit to two more years, 2025 and 2026.

 

“Pretty decent” is one thing. At this point, Sale is a Cy Young candidate.

 

 

If I asked you to find another example of a pitcher who, at age 35, suddenly started pitching like he did at age 29, despite having pitched much less effective and much less often from ages 30-34, could you? Sale was nowhere this good back in 2019, and that was five years ago.

 

Even Luis Tiant was younger when he had his very successful bounce back. He was only 31 when it started and by age 35, he was starting to decline again.

 

Granted, Sale was always in better physical shape than Luis. But to do this at his current age is probably unprecedented….

[notin]

Whoa, Nellie. Count me as one who thought last year that the old Sale was emerging and that he would be pretty decent this year. What kept him out longer than expected was that bicycle accident in ST. But the TJ surgery did in fact give Sale a new lease on life, good enough for the Braves to commit to two more years, 2025 and 2026.

 

It’s also extremely possible the Braves committed those extra years to get Sale to approve the trade. This is very common, and since the extension happened so quickly - within a couple days of the trade, it had very likely been mentioned before the deal was completed, which almost always means the player is insisting on it before approving the deal.

 

As Sale was a 10/5 player at the time, he absolutely had that right…

[moonslav59]

The real question is whether the Red Sox 2023-2024 offseason plan for the rotation made sense as a whole, the plan being to remove Chris Sale and add Lucas Giolito and do nothing else. If you were told before the offseason that was the entirety of the plan, what grade would you give it on a 1 to 10 scale, from terrible to awesome?

 

I made myself very clear all through the winter I was not happy with our winter moves on pitching.

 

That does not mean I think the Sale deal “made no sense at all.”

 

I was not a Gio fan but appreciated the effort to go more than$10M/1. It was a major swing and miss but an effort, nonetheless.

 

I was the guy that wanted 3 SPers added and guys like Whitlock and Crawford starting in the pen. I knew it would never happen but I thought maybe 2 would be nice. I had hoped for Lugo and Imanaga but also liked the idea of Monty or Gray.

 

We fell way short of my wishes. I’d probably have given the totality of our rotation moves a 2.