Chris Sale traded to Braves

[cp176]

Well the good news about Grissom, the "centerpiece" of the Sale trade is that he was the 21st ranked prospect in the Braves' farm system.

 

The bad thing about Grissom is that his ratings are decidedly mediocre.

 

Scouting grades: Hit: 45 | Power: 50 | Run: 50 | Arm: 55 | Field: 45 | Overall: 45

 

Article:

Braves Top Prospects | MLB.com

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The Official Site of Major League Baseball

 

But he is only 22 so who knows he does have room for improvement on those ratings.

 

Here's a scouting report that came out on Vaughn last February:

 

https://www.batterypower.com/2023/2/22/23608895/vaughn-grissom-metrics-say-atlanta-braves

 

It sounds like his numbers started slumping after a hot start. A negative -.3 dwar doesn't seem promising, neither does his -.7 WAR for the season of 2023. Sounds like his inability to hit the breaking pitch was one of the reasons he started slumping hard.

 

Thanks for this. As a stand alone trade, it really doesn't make much sense to me. Even if Chris Sale performs at a mediocre level for him, trading him for a middle infield prospect who isn't a very good fielder just doesn't work for me.

[Hugh2]

Well the good news about Grissom, the "centerpiece" of the Sale trade is that he was the 21st ranked prospect in the Braves' farm system.

 

The bad thing about Grissom is that his ratings are decidedly mediocre.

 

Scouting grades: Hit: 45 | Power: 50 | Run: 50 | Arm: 55 | Field: 45 | Overall: 45

 

Article:

Braves Top Prospects | MLB.com

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The Official Site of Major League Baseball

 

But he is only 22 so who knows he does have room for improvement on those ratings.

 

Here's a scouting report that came out on Vaughn last February:

 

https://www.batterypower.com/2023/2/22/23608895/vaughn-grissom-metrics-say-atlanta-braves

 

It sounds like his numbers started slumping after a hot start. A negative -.3 dwar doesn't seem promising, neither does his -.7 WAR for the season of 2023. Sounds like his inability to hit the breaking pitch was one of the reasons he started slumping hard.

 

And what does his 2022 scouting report say? WIthout looking it up I know for a fact his hit tool went up to 55.

 

I like prospects who have upward mobility at a young age. Those are the guys who turn into stars, not that he will, but he has youth and performance on his side.

 

I also wouldn't say he "slumped hard" in only 75 PA's Grissom was rushed to the majors. He effectively got a month at AA before making the season jump starting in A ball all the way to the majors. In 2022 he was 21 and had a .921 OPS.

 

I have zero concerns this kid is going to hit, but I'am a little concerned about his fringey bat speed and the defense. Get him in the weight room, with his age and athetlcism it's very reasonable to project improvements in those fields with the right people around him.

 

I'll take 6 years of that for one year of Sale.

Edited January 2, 2024 by A Red Sox fan named Hugh

[Hugh2]

Found the 2022:

 

Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 50 | Run: 50 | Arm: 55 | Field: 45 | Overall: 55

Braves Top Prospects | MLB.com

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The Official Site of Major League Baseball

In 2019, the main attraction at Hagerty High School in Florida was Riley Greene, who went No. 5 overall that June to the Tigers. Grissom was that school's shortstop, and while he wasn’t as highly regarded, the Braves liked him enough to go over the $125K limit in the 11th round and sign him for $347,500. He’s rewarded their investment by hitting pretty much everywhere as a pro -- from his summer debut in the Rookie-level Gulf Coast League to the alternate site, where he was one of the youngest players, to a full-season debut in 2021 in which he raked in A ball and earned a late promotion to High-A.

Grissom routinely displays outstanding bat-to-ball skills with a very good approach. He has a strong feel for the barrel from the right side of the plate, manages his at-bats well, draws walks and rarely strikes out. He’s short to the ball with relatively simple hitting mechanics and has solid bat speed. The Braves hope he’ll continue to fill out his 6-foot-3 frame and grow into more power as he matures.

As solid as Grissom has been at the plate, it’s been less clear where he might belong long-term defensively. He’s still seen more time at shortstop than any other position, but he’s also played a fair amount at third as well as a little at second. He has the arm to stay on the left side of the infield, where he’s more comfortable and while he doesn’t always have silky-smooth actions, he’s a solid defender. If he can’t play short, he might need to raise his power profile a bit to be a fit at the hot corner as a regular.

 

[jacksonianmarch]

A decidedly average player at a position where average is actually a plus is a win. I was surprised they could get anything for Sale. Yes, he had a reasonable year last year, but his stuff lagged and he still missed time. Sale is a broken down old horse and the sox turned him into a guy who should be your starting 2b for the next 6 years.

 

I am absolutely, 100% convinced the sox are heading into a rebuild here. I thought they'd build on a faulty but functional team that had just a few major needs and instead they seem to be cost conscious and shedding.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

 

I have zero concerns this kid is going to hit, but I'am a little concerned about his fringey bat speed and the defense. Get him in the weight room, with his age and athetlcism it's very reasonable to project improvements in those fields with the right people around him.

 

I'll take 6 years of that for one year of Sale.

 

Red Sox fans should be happy that Breslow acquired a young hitter with star potential for second base, instead of journeymen in their 30s like Merrifield or Drury.

 

Grissom can be part of the new core in the rebuild, and all he cost was a broken-down pitcher, whose exit closes an agonizing chapter of convalescence (at least for part of the starting rotation).

 

Edit: just read Jax, echo-echo...

[Hugh2]

BTV accepts Grissom to the Braves for Sale and 4 million in cash lol. Grissom has a higher value, but (according to BTV) we overpaid in cash by about 13 million.

 

Heres' the thing, a team like Atlanta needed that to avoid the highest tax line, team evaluations of players can vary wildly.

 

If the Sox believe Grissom can turn into an everday second baseman, this is an absolute STEAL. If he's a bust, then it's not the trade that was bad....it's the Sox ability to evaluate and assimilate talent into their organization that's the problem. It's not just about having the right guys, but having the right guys around those guys. Unfortunately, only time will tell how good Breslow and company is, and we will judge him now, although perhaps at this point the fan base is more readily accepting of shiting that blame onto ownership.

[moonslav59]

A decidedly average player at a position where average is actually a plus is a win. I was surprised they could get anything for Sale. Yes, he had a reasonable year last year, but his stuff lagged and he still missed time. Sale is a broken down old horse and the sox turned him into a guy who should be your starting 2b for the next 6 years.

 

I am absolutely, 100% convinced the sox are heading into a rebuild here. I thought they'd build on a faulty but functional team that had just a few major needs and instead they seem to be cost conscious and shedding.

 

Nothing can be "decidedly" at his age and sample size in the bigs.

[moonslav59]

BTV accepts Grissom to the Braves for Sale and 4 million in cash lol. Grissom has a higher value, but (according to BTV) we overpaid in cash by about 13 million.

 

 

No. BTV has this:

 

ATL

-5.7 Sale

17M Cash

(11.3 total)

 

BOS

17.1 Grissom

 

NET: BOS +5.8

 

[Hugh2]

No. BTV has this:

 

ATL

-5.7 Sale

17M Cash

(11.3 total)

 

BOS

17.1 Grissom

 

NET: BOS +5.8

 

 

I didn’t do what the trade was I did what made it equal. Of course, I had to trade to get Sale back.

 

Regardless, point is, the value of this trade comes down to Boston’s evaluation process with Grissom.

[moonslav59]

I didn’t do what the trade was I did what made it equal. Of course, I had to trade to get Sale back.

 

Regardless, point is, the value of this trade comes down to Boston’s evaluation process with Grissom.

 

To make it equal, we'd have had to give $5.8M more than we did.

[Hugh2]

To make it equal, we'd have had to give $5.8M more than we did.

 

I thought I just reversed engineered it in BTV

[mvp 78]

Well the good news about Grissom, the "centerpiece" of the Sale trade is that he was the 21st ranked prospect in the Braves' farm system.

 

The bad thing about Grissom is that his ratings are decidedly mediocre.

 

Scouting grades: Hit: 45 | Power: 50 | Run: 50 | Arm: 55 | Field: 45 | Overall: 45

 

Article:

Braves Top Prospects | MLB.com

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The Official Site of Major League Baseball

 

But he is only 22 so who knows he does have room for improvement on those ratings.

 

Here's a scouting report that came out on Vaughn last February:

 

https://www.batterypower.com/2023/2/22/23608895/vaughn-grissom-metrics-say-atlanta-braves

 

It sounds like his numbers started slumping after a hot start. A negative -.3 dwar doesn't seem promising, neither does his -.7 WAR for the season of 2023. Sounds like his inability to hit the breaking pitch was one of the reasons he started slumping hard.

 

He's projected to have a 2+ fWAR this year and a 778 OPS. Yeah, he had a -0.7 fWAR in '23, but a 0.7 fWAR in a small sample as a 21 year old in '22. A lot of people are ignoring that sample for some reason. He had a 920 OPS in AAA last year. He's not a complete slouch and moving him off of SS will help his defensive metrics.

[Old Red]

He's projected to have a 2+ fWAR this year and a 778 OPS. Yeah, he had a -0.7 fWAR in '23, but a 0.7 fWAR in a small sample as a 21 year old in '22. A lot of people are ignoring that sample for some reason. He had a 920 OPS in AAA last year. He's not a complete slouch and moving him off of SS will help his defensive metrics.

 

The Braves said he is a work in progress with the glove, and were even having him play some OF in Winter Ball. He only 23, and can get better, but just, because he’s moving to 2B doesn’t mean he’ll play better D there.

[notin]

The Braves said he is a work in progress with the glove, and were even having him play some OF in Winter Ball. He only 23, and can get better, but just, because he’s moving to 2B doesn’t mean he’ll play better D there.

 

While true, we figure he can at least be a step up over the (-0.9) fWAR the Sox got from the reliving door of players there in 2023…

[mvp 78]

The Braves said he is a work in progress with the glove, and were even having him play some OF in Winter Ball. He only 23, and can get better, but just, because he’s moving to 2B doesn’t mean he’ll play better D there.

 

He was playing OF because he was blocked in ATL by Ozzie and Riley. It was the only way he'd get AB's there.

 

If a guy is poor at SS because of a lack of range, his defense will be considered better at 2B. Less is demanded at that position. Also, his numbers at 2B are already better than SS in their small sample sized way going back to '22 (only had 19 G at 2B prior to being called up in '22).

 

2023 in AAA:

SS 967 Fldg% 70 starts, 9 errors

2B 992 Fldg% 31 starts, 1 error

[moonslav59]

He's projected to have a 2+ fWAR this year and a 778 OPS. Yeah, he had a -0.7 fWAR in '23, but a 0.7 fWAR in a small sample as a 21 year old in '22. A lot of people are ignoring that sample for some reason. He had a 920 OPS in AAA last year. He's not a complete slouch and moving him off of SS will help his defensive metrics.

 

I think his defense at 2B may be the deciding factor and is the big unknown with his overall value.

 

I'm not sure what past history shows, but my guess is many so-so SSs on D become plus 2Bmen.

[mvp 78]

The '22 report on Grissom:

 

 

Braves Top Prospects | MLB.com

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The Official Site of Major League Baseball

Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 50 | Run: 50 | Arm: 55 | Field: 45 | Overall: 55

Grissom routinely displays outstanding bat-to-ball skills with a very good approach. He has a strong feel for the barrel from the right side of the plate, manages his at-bats well, draws walks and rarely strikes out. He’s short to the ball with relatively simple hitting mechanics and has solid bat speed. The Braves hope he’ll continue to fill out his 6-foot-3 frame and grow into more power as he matures.

 

As solid as Grissom has been at the plate, it’s been less clear where he might belong long-term defensively. He’s still seen more time at shortstop than any other position, but he’s also played a fair amount at third as well as a little at second. He has the arm to stay on the left side of the infield, where he’s more comfortable and while he doesn’t always have silky-smooth actions, he’s a solid defender. If he can’t play short, he might need to raise his power profile a bit to be a fit at the hot corner as a regular.[/i]

[mvp 78]

Grissom '23 AAA:

Home 820 OPS

Road 999 OPS

 

His home stadium is one of the most pitcher friendly in the International League.

[mvp 78]

Keith Law: On defense, he has struggled at shortstop and projects to be average to a tick above at second base, although I could see him improving at the keystone once he plays there consistently.

 

From Mass Live:

 

SCOUT 1: “I think he got into the habit of being too fast on some routine plays in the infield and is in need of more game-speed experience. I guess I see him as an offense-first shortstop option who would, ultimately, fit better at second base.”

 

SCOUT 2: “Carries the profile of an offensive second baseman, but his defense can be underwhelming. Still, he should have everyday, run-producing value at Fenway.”

 

SCOUT 3: “I’m luke-warm on him. He really can’t play shortstop, and I see him being limited to either second base or a corner outfield spot. He has contact skills, but the power is not there. For me, not an impact guy.”

 

SCOUT 4: “It’s all about upside and patience with him. He has the talent to be a productive major league bat in the No. 2 hole in need of an OBP upgrade, strike zone (recognition) and walks. Has some defensive versatility and could play at second, short and the outfield, but we had some concerns about his ability to play shortstop. He should be able to hit and play second base. Has a good work ethic and can be tough on himself. Brings some instincts and attitude to develop. He’ll need some time (to develop further) at the major league level, sort of like (Triston) Casas did.”

[Old Red]

Keith Law: On defense, he has struggled at shortstop and projects to be average to a tick above at second base, although I could see him improving at the keystone once he plays there consistently.

 

From Mass Live:

 

SCOUT 1: “I think he got into the habit of being too fast on some routine plays in the infield and is in need of more game-speed experience. I guess I see him as an offense-first shortstop option who would, ultimately, fit better at second base.”

 

SCOUT 2: “Carries the profile of an offensive second baseman, but his defense can be underwhelming. Still, he should have everyday, run-producing value at Fenway.”

 

SCOUT 3: “I’m luke-warm on him. He really can’t play shortstop, and I see him being limited to either second base or a corner outfield spot. He has contact skills, but the power is not there. For me, not an impact guy.”

 

SCOUT 4: “It’s all about upside and patience with him. He has the talent to be a productive major league bat in the No. 2 hole in need of an OBP upgrade, strike zone (recognition) and walks. Has some defensive versatility and could play at second, short and the outfield, but we had some concerns about his ability to play shortstop. He should be able to hit and play second base. Has a good work ethic and can be tough on himself. Brings some instincts and attitude to develop. He’ll need some time (to develop further) at the major league level, sort of like (Triston) Casas did.”

 

To sum it up he’ll be 23 in a couple of days, and has lots of potential.what can go wrong?

[mvp 78]

To sum it up he’ll be 23 in a couple of days, and has lots of potential.what can go wrong?

 

At worst, they wasted one year of Chris Frail Sale on a guy with upside that flames out. They weren't going to give him a QO at year end and I don't think Sale was going to be bringing back a crazy return at the deadline. I think the trade is fine. Grissom should be better at 2B than any guy they currently have on the 40 man roster. He hits RH and doesn't have a significant split against LHP/RHP. He's younger than Rafaela. After 2 mediocre seasons for Yorke, Sox needed someone else to give the reps to.

 

Many people on here hated Sale UNTIL he was traded apparently. Somehow he's going to be great for ATL, but was going to be utter s*** here. Maybe the Sox can deal Grissom and the same people will lament the loss of him as well?

[Old Red]

At worst, they wasted one year of Chris Frail Sale on a guy with upside that flames out. They weren't going to give him a QO at year end and I don't think Sale was going to be bringing back a crazy return at the deadline. I think the trade is fine. Grissom should be better at 2B than any guy they currently have on the 40 man roster. He hits RH and doesn't have a significant split against LHP/RHP. He's younger than Rafaela. After 2 mediocre seasons for Yorke, Sox needed someone else to give the reps to.

 

Many people on here hated Sale UNTIL he was traded apparently. Somehow he's going to be great for ATL, but was going to be utter s*** here. Maybe the Sox can deal Grissom and the same people will lament the loss of him as well?

 

I was all for trading Sale, but just didn’t like still paying him $17M to do it, but I’m over it, so I’m fine with the trade, and will feel even better if Grissom works out.

[mvp 78]

I was all for trading Sale, but just didn’t like still paying him $17M to do it, but I’m over it, so I’m fine with the trade, and will feel even better if Grissom works out.

 

Not sure anyone was going to pay Sale's full salary and give back anything worthwhile. We all know his limitations health wise.

[moonslav59]

The '22 report on Grissom:

 

 

Braves Top Prospects | MLB.com

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The Official Site of Major League Baseball

Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 50 | Run: 50 | Arm: 55 | Field: 45 | Overall: 55

Grissom routinely displays outstanding bat-to-ball skills with a very good approach. He has a strong feel for the barrel from the right side of the plate, manages his at-bats well, draws walks and rarely strikes out. He’s short to the ball with relatively simple hitting mechanics and has solid bat speed. The Braves hope he’ll continue to fill out his 6-foot-3 frame and grow into more power as he matures.

 

As solid as Grissom has been at the plate, it’s been less clear where he might belong long-term defensively. He’s still seen more time at shortstop than any other position, but he’s also played a fair amount at third as well as a little at second. He has the arm to stay on the left side of the infield, where he’s more comfortable and while he doesn’t always have silky-smooth actions, he’s a solid defender. If he can’t play short, he might need to raise his power profile a bit to be a fit at the hot corner as a regular.[/i]

 

I think someone had him as the Braves #3 prospect in 2022.

[notin]

Not sure anyone was going to pay Sale's full salary and give back anything worthwhile. We all know his limitations health wise.

 

We’re not even sure anyone would take Sale and his full salary, let alone give anything back…

[Bellhorn04]

We’re not even sure anyone would take Sale and his full salary, let alone give anything back…

 

Big Tony Vincenzo says no one would do that.

[mvp 78]

I think someone had him as the Braves #3 prospect in 2022.

 

7 on the MLB list (behind Strider, Harris, Waters, Muller, Elder and Shoemake). At the time of his callup in August of '22, he was probably their best prospect. He was named their MiLB Player of the Year in '22.

[mvp 78]

Big Tony Vincenzo says no one would do that.

 

"I'd give yuh a bag uh ballz dat wuz left outside in da rain last night."

[moonslav59]

Not sure anyone was going to pay Sale's full salary and give back anything worthwhile. We all know his limitations health wise.

 

I am certain nobody would take him at his full contract cost.

 

It's interesting that BTV had the value of Grissom at $17M, and the Sox with a net gain of $5.8M balance on the deal.

 

The more I read about Grissom, the more I like him, but we all know about the good things we read about Downs, too.

 

The part of the trade that upsets me the most is about the idea we will not really be spending the money saved on the trade, unless we contort our thinking to convince ourselves we will.

 

If the club was thinking we are losing Sale's full contract, next year and we could add $10M AAV to what we thinking we could pay for a FA SP'er in AAV for 2024, it could make a big difference, but sadly, it does not look like that is how the team budget thoughts are like, right now.

 

I certainly had grown tired of wishing and wishing on Sale's return. Then, we never knew if he ever did return, what would he look like?

 

He did look pretty good in his last 15 starts to the season- a pretty significant sample size, but not really enough to know for sure, he can pitch really well for a whole season.

 

I wish him luck. I liked how he seemed to be a fierce competitor. We seem to be lacking in those types of players. If he does great in 2024, the deal might look real bad, but Grissom has many years to balance out of plus side this deal.

 

Another factor might be about what we might or could get by trading from our 2B depth. BTV has these values for our middle IF'ers:

 

44.5 Mayer

17.1 Grissom (29.7 AFV)

13.3 Yorke

8.1 E Valdez (20.3)

7.1 Cespedes

4.2 Romero & Zanetello

3.3 Meidroth (3B, too)

2.6 Alcantara

2.3 Paulino

2.3 Reyes (8.5)

2.0 DHam (5.9) & A Anderson

 

I could see us trading EValdez and or Yorke, perhaps as part of a larger package.

 

[sk7326]

From Law's breakdown of the trade and the Giolito pickup: https://theathletic.com/5170577/2023/12/30/law-chris-sale-trade-atlanta-boston/

 

In Grissom, the Red Sox get a potential solution to their hole at second base for 2023, although he comes with some question marks as well. Grissom’s debut in 2022 was outstanding, especially given how little experience he had in the minors, but he struggled in a brief opportunity as Atlanta’s shortstop in April and May last year and was optioned to Triple A on May 9 when Arcia came off the injured list. He spent nearly the remainder of 2023 in the minors, posting a .330/.419/.501 line for Triple-A Gwinnett with a high line-drive rate that bodes well for his ability to keep his average up in the majors. He’s overly aggressive at the plate, chasing pitches out of the zone at a 34.6 percent rate in the majors, per Baseball Savant (the MLB average in that time is 28.5 percent), and was around 33 percent in the minors last year as well.

 

He has also had a ton of trouble with changeups, with consistently poor results at both levels last year; even when he did make contact on changeups, he didn’t do much with them. On defense, he has struggled at shortstop and projects to be average to a tick above at second base, although I could see him improving at the keystone once he plays there consistently. Red Sox president Craig Breslow said they see Grissom as the team’s everyday second baseman in 2024, and I could see a 1.5-2 WAR season from him (Grissom, not Breslow) … but I see some wide error bars around any projection given his issues with ball, strike and changeup recognition.

 

....

 

Nick Yorke was Boston’s first-round pick in 2020, a huge surprise since he was generally considered a third-round talent or below by other teams. Yorke had a huge year in 2021 and a down year in 2022, and in 2023 he hit .268/.350/.435 for Double-A Portland with a 24 percent strikeout rate. That’s probably a good indicator of the type of player he’ll be next season.

 

He has a beautiful right-handed swing that should produce a higher line-drive rate than it has in the past two years, and he’s a fringy defender at second base and doesn’t have an obvious place to go if he can’t play there.

 

Grissom’s addition could mean Yorke is available via trade, and since he’ll turn 22 in April and could debut this year, he should have significant value to any team looking to move veterans for guys making the minimum.

 

Ceddanne Rafaela is a natural infielder who took to center field like he’d been playing there since he could walk, so Breslow giving Grissom the imprimatur at second implies Rafaela will move to center permanently — which makes sense, as he might be an 80 defender (at the top of the scale) out there.

 

That just adds to the logjam in Boston’s outfield soon, with four guys already in the four spots between the outfield and DH, along with its No. 2 prospect, Roman Anthony, speeding toward the majors. Masataka Yoshida isn’t going anywhere with that contract and Tyler O’Neill just arrived, which might mean Jarren Duran and/or Wilyer Abreu would be available, now or at the trade deadline.