Chris Sale traded to Braves

[Randy Red Sox]

Now if the Sox use that $10mill on Paxton.

 

Paxton (1.0 fWAR) was less effective than Sale (2.1 fWAR), but can Grissom improve on the (-0.9) fWAR the Sox got from 2b?

 

And if they can just get one more SP for Duran…

 

 

Duran WILL NOT bring back a decent SP at least by himself.

[Randy Red Sox]

It would not shock me to see us gear up for 2026.

 

 

I have said all along that this was Henry's plan. Sprinkle in enough veteran type 1 yr deals to insure the team stays in the mushy middle to placate all us STUPID GULLIBLE fans and yes I consider myself in that category

[notin]

Duran WILL NOT bring back a decent SP at least by himself.

 

Duran makes league minimum and has 5 years of control left and showed MLB how to weaponize his speed last year. Anything hit into any gap went for extra bases. He was actually an exciting player.

 

I could absolutely see a team with pitching depth and struggling to add offensive pieces that fit their budget giving up a SP for Duran, especially if said pitcher is getting pricier.

 

Cleveland, San Diego and Miami all fit this scenario to a tee. Seattle doesn’t have the same financial limitations, but does have the pitching depth and needs bats.

[moonslav59]

BTV:

 

-5.7 Sale

17M cash

Total: $11.3M

 

For

 

17.1 Grissom

[moonslav59]

Duran makes league minimum and has 5 years of control left and showed MLB how to weaponize his speed last year. Anything hit into any gap went for extra bases. He was actually an exciting player.

 

I could absolutely see a team with pitching depth and struggling to add offensive pieces that fit their budget giving up a SP for Duran, especially if said pitcher is getting pricier.

 

Cleveland, San Diego and Miami all fit this scenario to a tee. Seattle doesn’t have the same financial limitations, but does have the pitching depth and needs bats.

 

I could also see us trade Duran plus Wikelman or Perales for a SP.

 

One could imagine Duran plus Crawford for a real good one.

[a700hitter]

It is better to trade a player too early rather than too late. It would be nice if we didn’t have to pay so much of his salary. I fully expect that Sale will stick it to us and return to form in 24.

[Randy Red Sox]

Duran makes league minimum and has 5 years of control left and showed MLB how to weaponize his speed last year. Anything hit into any gap went for extra bases. He was actually an exciting player.

 

I could absolutely see a team with pitching depth and struggling to add offensive pieces that fit their budget giving up a SP for Duran, especially if said pitcher is getting pricier.

 

Cleveland, San Diego and Miami all fit this scenario to a tee. Seattle doesn’t have the same financial limitations, but does have the pitching depth and needs bats.

 

The first 2 factors you mention are exactly why they WON'T trade Duran.

[Old Red]

It would not shock me to see us gear up for 2026.

 

It wouldn’t shock you to se them gear up for 2036.🙈

[cp176]

But equally, Yorke is still at least a season away maybe two. We need a 2nd baseman now. We've picked up a guy that is more than likely quite a bit better than Yorke (with the same years of control), which then allows us to trade Yorke for the controllable starting pitching that we badly need.

 

Doesn't that make any sense to you?

 

I get why you're disillusioned for what it's worth. These past few years have tested even the most ardent fan's patience, but this move is indicative of having someone with some courage and decisiveness in charge at last.

 

I understand what you are saying. If Grissom can field the position, and they pick up the pitching that we desperately need, I'll go along with it and buy in to the courage and decisiveness part of your statement. Now on the other hand if the moves are not made, it will be right back to suck city for me. Trading Sale for the sake of cutting payroll alone ain't going to make it for me. Gearing up and getting ready for next, next, next, next year just is lame. I don't have your faith.

[cp176]

I'm proud of the fact that I am and will continue to be a fan of Chris Sales. I also think that the man can and will pitch effectively again. Two big ifs for me - can this kid field the position or will he add to an already pathetic defense. When I think of anybody playing one of the "up the middle" positions, I think defense first in a very big way. If one comes along who can hit too, it's a bonus. Secondly, what happens next? I'm not as confident as others here who think that unloading Sale's contract is going serve as a launching pad for better things to come. I will say that this move has the potential to be something that makes a little sense. That alone makes it a great deal more significant than any moves that have been made in quite some time.

[moonslav59]

I'm proud of the fact that I am and will continue to be a fan of Chris Sales. I also think that the man can and will pitch effectively again. Two big ifs for me - can this kid field the position or will he add to an already pathetic defense. When I think of anybody playing one of the "up the middle" positions, I think defense first in a very big way. If one comes along who can hit too, it's a bonus. Secondly, what happens next? I'm not as confident as others here who think that unloading Sale's contract is going serve as a launching pad for better things to come. I will say that this move has the potential to be something that makes a little sense. That alone makes it a great deal more significant than any moves that have been made in quite some time.

 

I’m far from writing off Sale’s career, too. He could easily put pitch Giolito.

 

MLBTR reports that the money saved from the Sale, Dugo and Urias trades equals the 2024 salary of Giolito. Of course, we got players and prospects, too.

[notin]

The first 2 factors you mention are exactly why they WON'T trade Duran.

 

The main reason they will trade him is he has nowhere to play. He isn’t much in CF and presumably the Sox want to add Teoscar Hernandez at some point. That would leave Duran with no position..,

[moonslav59]

The main reason they will trade him is he has nowhere to play. He isn’t much in CF and presumably the Sox want to add Teoscar Hernandez at some point. That would leave Duran with no position..,

 

It scares me to think they may slot him in Cf.

[Randy Red Sox]

The main reason they will trade him is he has nowhere to play. He isn’t much in CF and presumably the Sox want to add Teoscar Hernandez at some point. That would leave Duran with no position..,

 

from what have heard Hernandez s not a g00d defensive 0f

[Dipre]

I don't get the fascination with Hernandez. He doesn't walk, strikes out a ton, and isn't good on D.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't get the fascination with Hernandez. He doesn't walk, strikes out a ton, and isn't good on D.

 

And you left out "he's expected to get about 80 million".

[Randy Red Sox]

I don't get the fascination with Hernandez. He doesn't walk, strikes out a ton, and isn't good on D.

 

i agree with that

[notin]

from what have heard Hernandez s not a g00d defensive 0f

 

He isn’t. You might have heard that from me…

[Hitch]

I understand what you are saying. If Grissom can field the position, and they pick up the pitching that we desperately need, I'll go along with it and buy in to the courage and decisiveness part of your statement. Now on the other hand if the moves are not made, it will be right back to suck city for me. Trading Sale for the sake of cutting payroll alone ain't going to make it for me. Gearing up and getting ready for next, next, next, next year just is lame. I don't have your faith.

 

Totally agree with that stance. It would be utterly perplexing to me to not see more major moves, especially as Breslow keeps saying it's coming. So I'm pretty confident we'll bee feeling pretty good in a month or so. But if not, then I'll be right there with you.

 

I get the emotional attachment to Sale, too. I was travelling around Nicaragua in '18 and ended up chatting with an older Bostonian gent in a bar late at night for a few hours about Sale's absolute mastery on the mound, and how no other pitcher could make you awe like him since Pedro. But unfortunately, we didn't get that Sale through his extension. I'm not sure he's in there any longer, but I'll always be in awe of what he was before his injury.

[Hitch]

Let’s see if we spend that $10M before counting it as a big part of the trade.

 

When we traded Betts and Price, we never replaced their contract cost savings.

When Porcello left-same.

Last season we were $6M under, so didn’t spend all the Bogey bolting money, either.

 

If we get a 1-2 pitcher with that money plus more, the trade looks fine. If we end up almost $10M under and left a hole unfilled or a position not upgraded, then the “savings” mean nothing, except to JH’s already fat wallet.

 

 

I see this differently to you. I don't really care if it gets spent, as long as the best team is on the field. For example, if a better pitchers with smaller contracts are available through trade, I'd far prefer we get them rather than a Montgomerie just to spend the 10m.

 

If we spend it, great. If we don't, as long as it is because the best team cost less in overall money because of trade, fine by me. There's little point spending it just to say you've spent it.

 

It gives extra payroll flexibility if nothing else at the moment, which is no bad thing and opens up options.

[Bellhorn04]

I see this differently to you. I don't really care if it gets spent, as long as the best team is on the field. For example, if a better pitchers with smaller contracts are available through trade, I'd far prefer we get them rather than a Montgomerie just to spend the 10m.

 

If we spend it, great. If we don't, as long as it is because the best team cost less in overall money because of trade, fine by me. There's little point spending it just to say you've spent it.

 

It gives extra payroll flexibility if nothing else at the moment, which is no bad thing and opens up options.

 

Right now I'm seeing everything through the filter of the Sox owners imposing an unjustifiably tight budget.

[Hitch]

Right now I'm seeing everything through the filter of the Sox owners imposing an unjustifiably tight budget.

 

Yeah, I totally get that. As I've mentioned in other posts, there's certainly enough past behaviour to be pissed about, but I'm cautiously optimistic we'll be a lot happier in a month.

[moonslav59]

I don't get the fascination with Hernandez. He doesn't walk, strikes out a ton, and isn't good on D.

 

I don 't either.

 

We already have these players, whose best position is LF (or DH:)

Yoshida

Duran

O'Neill

Refsnyder

 

Why add one more.

 

Get an OF'er who can play RF or CF (or both.)

[moonslav59]

I see this differently to you. I don't really care if it gets spent, as long as the best team is on the field. For example, if a better pitchers with smaller contracts are available through trade, I'd far prefer we get them rather than a Montgomerie just to spend the 10m.

 

If we spend it, great. If we don't, as long as it is because the best team cost less in overall money because of trade, fine by me. There's little point spending it just to say you've spent it.

 

It gives extra payroll flexibility if nothing else at the moment, which is no bad thing and opens up options.

 

Certainly, everyone will agree it was a good trade, if Sale gets hurt or underperforms, and/or Grissom does well, but that will be in hindsight. Right now, I see the trade as being a big risk. Brez seems to like hard throwers. I get the injury risk factor is off the charts, but to me, the balance of the trade flips to to a nicer deal, if we use that $10M to get a better SP'er or OF'er, or whatever.

[Bellhorn04]

Certainly, everyone will agree it was a good trade, if Sale gets hurt or underperforms, and/or Grissom does well, but that will be in hindsight. Right now, I see the trade as being a big risk. Brez seems to like hard throwers. I get the injury risk factor is off the charts, but to me, the balance of the trade flips to to a nicer deal, if we use that $10M to get a better SP'er or OF'er, or whatever.

 

If the reports are true, they have a firm budget and they're going to stick to it. So the $10 mill will get spent.

[Dipre]

Right now I'm seeing everything through the filter of the Sox owners imposing an unjustifiably tight budget.

 

Assumed

[moonslav59]

If the reports are true, they have a firm budget and they're going to stick to it. So the $10 mill will get spent.

 

Hard to know, but it sounds correct.

[Randy Red Sox]

Hard to know, but it sounds correct.

 

And what will the 10 million get us ?

[moonslav59]

And what will the 10 million get us ?

 

Tough question.

 

$10M AAV can get us something good, by itself. Adding $10M AAV to a tight budget can mean we spend $25M on a pitcher not $15M. That difference could be huge. Our total remaining winter budget is not likely $10M or less.

 

It could mean signing 2 player at $5M more a piece and getting 2 better players.

 

If you count it as only $10M total, not much. It gets us the next Kluber or Richards, but it's also almost enough to get the 2022 Wacha plus Hill.

 

In 2024, $10M gets you guys like this:

$11M/1 Lance Lynn

$10.5M Kiermaier

$9M/1 J Heywood

$8.5M Wade Miley

$5M/1 Will Smith + $4M for Maldanado or Austing Hedges.

 

[vjcsmoke]

I understand what you are saying. If Grissom can field the position, and they pick up the pitching that we desperately need, I'll go along with it and buy in to the courage and decisiveness part of your statement. Now on the other hand if the moves are not made, it will be right back to suck city for me. Trading Sale for the sake of cutting payroll alone ain't going to make it for me. Gearing up and getting ready for next, next, next, next year just is lame. I don't have your faith.

 

Well the good news about Grissom, the "centerpiece" of the Sale trade is that he was the 21st ranked prospect in the Braves' farm system.

 

The bad thing about Grissom is that his ratings are decidedly mediocre.

 

Scouting grades: Hit: 45 | Power: 50 | Run: 50 | Arm: 55 | Field: 45 | Overall: 45

 

Article:

Braves Top Prospects | MLB.com

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The Official Site of Major League Baseball

 

But he is only 22 so who knows he does have room for improvement on those ratings.

 

Here's a scouting report that came out on Vaughn last February:

 

https://www.batterypower.com/2023/2/22/23608895/vaughn-grissom-metrics-say-atlanta-braves

 

It sounds like his numbers started slumping after a hot start. A negative -.3 dwar doesn't seem promising, neither does his -.7 WAR for the season of 2023. Sounds like his inability to hit the breaking pitch was one of the reasons he started slumping hard.

Edited January 2, 2024 by vjcsmoke