Best Red Sox SS of All Time

[notin]

Is this a trick question? The answer is pretty obvious.

 

Only if you pretend to know everything about these negotiations.

 

We’ve all heard the lowball offer story, but really none of us knows if that really was the offer. So far, the source everyone likes to cite is the New York Post. Why just them?

 

We never heard anything else about Bogaerts’ demands.

 

We’ve heard numerous stories that Bogaerts was the Sox “top priority,” but not one story about upping the lowball offer?

 

It’s reached the point where every aspect of this story is suspect…

[mvp 78]

I would say this is mostly on JH, but I don’t know if Bloom was specifically told what offer to give Bogey last offseason. At any rate that sent a very bad message especially to Bogey.

 

I guarantee that JH has the final say on all of these large contract offers. Bloom isn't doing that alone. There's too much money involved.

[mvp 78]

Numerous times we have heard from Red Sox management that the signing of Bogaerts was a very very high priority. I think going forward, if he signs with anyone else for a number that the Red Sox could have matched if they had chosen to, then in the future they just should say nothing to us about their goals. It is a crappy way to do business and they will stand the chance of alienating even more of their fan base.

 

Yup.

[Hugh2]

I guarantee that JH has the final say on all of these large contract offers. Bloom isn't doing that alone. There's too much money involved.

 

I think this is right, but probably in reverse of what red said. He’s not off, but I think it’s on Bloom to negotiate a deal, but with so much money involved he has to go back to John Henry, with that said he probably has an ideal or a window of how high he can go and if negotiations go beyond those figures he has to go up through ownership

[moonslav59]

If he signs for $200M/8 or $190/7, I'd like to know the final Sox offer. If it was a fair offer, I'll have no beef with not outbidding an overpay, but I'll still think they botched letting him go for just a com pick.

[Old Red]

Only if you pretend to know everything about these negotiations.

 

We’ve all heard the lowball offer story, but really none of us knows if that really was the offer. So far, the source everyone likes to cite is the New York Post. Why just them?

 

We never heard anything else about Bogaerts’ demands.

 

We’ve heard numerous stories that Bogaerts was the Sox “top priority,” but not one story about upping the lowball offer?

 

It’s reached the point where every aspect of this story is suspect…

I haven’t heard anyone refute the low offer either. We have always differed on this, where you think Bogey should have come back with a counter offer, and my stance has been the offer was way to low to warrant a counter offer.

[Hugh2]

I haven’t heard anyone refute the low offer either. We have always differed on this, where you think Bogey should have come back with a counter offer, and my stance has been the offer was way to low to warrant a counter offer.

 

Bogey wasn’t going to negotiate though, he already cut a deal once he wasn’t going to do it again.

 

What I want to know is what his demands where, because that’s likely what the Sox would have had to offer to stop him from opting out.

 

If that number is $250/8 are you still upset the Sox didn’t sign him for that? Regardless, for both opinions, it would be useful to know.

[moonslav59]

Bogey wasn’t going to negotiate though, he already cut a deal once he wasn’t going to do it again.

 

What I want to know is what his demands where, because that’s likely what the Sox would have had to offer to stop him from opting out.

 

If that number is $250/8 are you still upset the Sox didn’t sign him for that? Regardless, for both opinions, it would be useful to know.

 

The final criticism and mayb e most important will probably be why didn't we trade him knowing we were so far apart on salary numbers.

[Bellhorn04]

The final criticism and mayb e most important will probably be why didn't we trade him knowing we were so far apart on salary numbers.

 

You know the answer. The same reason they didn't trade JD and Eovaldi.

[Hugh2]

You know the answer. The same reason they didn't trade JD and Eovaldi.

 

They were counting on a clean bill of health the second half to make a run. To be fair it worked in 2021…well they fell two games short of a World Series, but that was their plan.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The final criticism and mayb e most important will probably be why didn't we trade him knowing we were so far apart on salary numbers.

 

Does anyone want this inscribed on his tombstone: "while Chief Baseball Officer of the Red Sox, oversaw departures of beloved fan favorites Mookie Betts, Xander Bogaerts and Rafael Devers" ?

[Old Red]

Does anyone want this inscribed on his tombstone: "while Chief Baseball Officer of the Red Sox, oversaw departures of beloved fan favorites Mookie Betts, Xander Bogaerts and Rafael Devers" ?

 

3 future HOF.

[Old Red]

You know the answer. The same reason they didn't trade JD and Eovaldi.

 

And now the big question is if the Red Sox, and Raffy so far apart that they don’t think they can sign him do you trade him this off season? Trading now may be better for the team in the long run, but not good for the PR especially if Bogey leaves too.

[Bellhorn04]

And now the big question is if the Red Sox, and Raffy so far apart that they don’t think they can sign him do you trade him this off season? Trading now may be better for the team in the long run, but not good for the PR especially if Bogey leaves too.

 

Letting Raffy walk might be the worst of the three, considering how young he is.

[Hugh2]

People forget how often these big contracts go bad on you. The tigers paid miggy a boatload of money, but after an 8 year 240 million dollar extension he turned into a sub .800 OPS guy who was hurt half the time.

 

Albert Pujols was good in LA but he put up a decade of sub-.800 OPS after being paid for being a perennial MVP candidate. 1/2 the reason this team is in trouble is because they signed the wrong guys.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't sign Bogey, but this team could be forgiven for letting Bogey walk if the money gets outrageous if they end up extending Devers.

[Hugh2]

3 future HOF.

 

That might be insanely premature. Bogaerts put up a 34 WAR his first 10 years in the majors, he will have to replicate that production for another 10 years to be considered a contender for the HOF. Can he do that late into his 30's?

[moonslav59]

You know the answer. The same reason they didn't trade JD and Eovaldi.

 

Dare I be politically incorrect and answer, "cry baby fans?"

 

How happy will they be, if we walk away with nothing for the 3 and end up signing Andrus, Conforto, and a couple or three decent but not great pitchers?

[moonslav59]

They were counting on a clean bill of health the second half to make a run. To be fair it worked in 2021…well they fell two games short of a World Series, but that was their plan.

 

So, they valued that more than what they could have gotten for Bogey?

 

I also mentioned trading him a year or two ago. Same answer, I guess.

[moonslav59]

Letting Raffy walk might be the worst of the three, considering how young he is.

 

They also tried to get something in return for Betts and were able to dump half-price Price along the way.

 

If they get just 2 comp picks for Bogey and Raffy, something is seriously wrong at the top,

[moonslav59]

Does anyone want this inscribed on his tombstone: "while Chief Baseball Officer of the Red Sox, oversaw departures of beloved fan favorites Mookie Betts, Xander Bogaerts and Rafael Devers" ?

 

It might read:

 

"Died Trying to Please Talksox Bashers"

[Hugh2]

So, they valued that more than what they could have gotten for Bogey?

 

I also mentioned trading him a year or two ago. Same answer, I guess.

 

If you look at the market for rentals at the deadline, it's not what it once was. Teams don't want to pony up for 1/2 a year of control. The teams that got PAID were the ones who traded away guys with the extra year of team control.

 

The chance to make the playoffs is worth a boatload more than what two months of Bogey would have returned.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Letting Raffy walk might be the worst of the three, considering how young he is.

 

Sox fans still have to have some doubt about the next decade of Raffy. He's already had weight issues and nagging injuries, and his defense -- while improved -- is still below a replacement player's. When he becomes a multi-kajillionaire set for nine lives, will he get complacent or more intense, to prove his worth? We just don't know.

 

Personally, I never had any of these doubts for Mookie -- the best hitter, best runner, and best fielder -- who always appeared a fine, upstanding individual from good stock, and a five-tool athlete in the best condition because of healthy lifestyles. His height or weight is not why he's suffered a few aches and pain; it's that breakneck style of play.

 

Devers won't be Beltre 93.5 WAR! or Miggy, but closer to a lefty Ramirez would be ok (statistically) -- hopefully more Manny 69.3 than Hanley 38.

[Hugh2]

They also tried to get something in return for Betts and were able to dump half-price Price along the way.

 

If they get just 2 comp picks for Bogey and Raffy, something is seriously wrong at the top,

 

I think there's a time and a place for everything. Lets say Devers ends up walking after next year but the Sox make a WS run.....was it worth it holding onto him? I'm all for trading players away for something before you lose them for next to nothing, but sometimes it's worth just having one more season of an elite player in his prime.

[Hugh2]

A Devers extension likely will have some type of opt-out, meaning it will guarantee he's here for another 2-3 years but then after that he will be in the same boat Bogaerts is in this year.

 

I'm ok with that, I'd rather take Devers in his 20's than his 30's.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It might read:

 

"Died Trying to Please Talksox Bashers"

 

Is the title of this thread An Unrealistic View?

[moonslav59]

If you look at the market for rentals at the deadline, it's not what it once was. Teams don't want to pony up for 1/2 a year of control. The teams that got PAID were the ones who traded away guys with the extra year of team control.

 

The chance to make the playoffs is worth a boatload more than what two months of Bogey would have returned.

 

The return would still likely beat the comp pick value, plus we'd have reset the tax, which has real value, too.

 

Again, I was speaking more to the trading 2-3 years ago, if you don't value him like you think other GMs do.

[Bellhorn04]

Dare I be politically incorrect and answer, "cry baby fans?"

 

How happy will they be, if we walk away with nothing for the 3 and end up signing Andrus, Conforto, and a couple or three decent but not great pitchers?

 

It's not a question of being happy. The front office decided they had enough of a chance to make the playoffs not to fire sale. Blame it on the continually expanding playoffs if you want. The Phillies scraped in at 87-75 and nearly won it all.

 

You're calling fans crybabies for not giving up, and for not being forward-looking enough. Including fans who go to the park and pay the highest prices in baseball and generate a lot of revenue for the team.

[moonslav59]

I think there's a time and a place for everything. Lets say Devers ends up walking after next year but the Sox make a WS run.....was it worth it holding onto him? I'm all for trading players away for something before you lose them for next to nothing, but sometimes it's worth just having one more season of an elite player in his prime.

 

Making a WS run would mean we probably brought B ogey back or one of the other bid 3 SSs or someone like Judge or deGrom.

 

In theory, I'd take the a strong WS run a comp pick and over what we could get for him, this winter.

 

I'm not seeing a WS run in 2023, unless we do some serious upgrading at 2-3 positions while trying to stay close to even at SS, C and DH.

[moonslav59]

It's not a question of being happy. The front office decided they had enough of a chance to make the playoffs not to fire sale. Blame it on the continually expanding playoffs if you want. The Phillies scraped in at 87-75 and nearly won it all.

 

You're calling fans crybabies for not giving up, and for not being forward-looking enough. Including fans who go to the park and pay the highest prices in baseball and generate a lot of revenue for the team.

 

That's not my meaning at all. It is meant to describe precisely what many fans would do, if we traded him or him and Nate or JD. There are many of them. I heard them on sports talk radio and am sure they are a majority. They'd be crying and cancelling their season tickets and NESN subscriptions by the boatloads.

 

[cp176]

So, is this the way of the future for the fans. You get as much as you can out of home grown talents and if they happen to be very very good, you trade them for fear of them not being able to perform for the remainder of any new contract unless of course they take the discount offered by management? I don't think that it is unusual for people to be upset by this. This I think would be a huge change with respect to the way the Sox have operated. There are some players you just don't let get away.