Best Red Sox SS of All Time

[moonslav59]

Some are still crying about Fred Lynn.

 

Let's not forget a guy named Mookie Betts.

 

Isn't it okay to cry if you think they're the wrong moves? Don't we all do that?

 

I have never said it's not okay to cry. I "cried" over losing Lester and was the poster who was okay giving Betts $400M/14, at one point.

 

Again, my point was not to disparage crying or emotional complaining, although the worst crybabies among us can get annoying, but to point out that, in my opinion, some of our not-so-good decisions have been at least partially influenced by the fear of stirring them up, which is part of doing business and not necessarily unjustified, either.

 

I get the point about us not being as competitive had we traded Bogey a year or two ago. It's a valid point. It was also a business choice.

 

I'm not saying being better going forward had we traded Bogey a year or two ago vs being better in 2022 or 2021 and 2022 would have been the best choice, but I do think we'd be better off now, had we done it (assuming we don't re-sign him.)

 

If anyone wants to say Red or I'm crying about us not trading Bogey earlier, they are free to do so, and they'd have proper standing. (I don't think I've gone on and on and on about it, and I can understand why we didn't do it and recognize not trading him has serious merit, too.)

[moonslav59]

That wasn’t the question. It was a simple hypothetical question…

 

You'll have to explain that in more detail.

[notin]

If it works, people are fine with it. However, it's hard to justify the Betts trade when it's followed up in the near term with seasons like 2020 and 2022. Unfortunately, they didn't quite make it in 2021 (didn't win the division, lost in the ALCS). If they don't win soon, how can ownership explain away losing Betts (who won a ring in LA), Xander and potentially Raffy?

 

No specifics.

 

It’s a question of priorities for you as a fan.

 

Do you prefer a winning team or a team of favorite players? It’s great when you have both. And keeping known names is certainly easier than rolling the dice to build a winner. But what would fans prefer?

 

If you like the Betts example, would he have made 2020 justifiably better? Or 2022?

[notin]

You'll have to explain that in more detail.

 

Why? You think he’d actually answer?

[moonslav59]

Why? You think he’d actually answer?

 

No. Nor do I think he'd care to hear about what a hypothetical question is. He has his own alternative meaning for words.

[moonslav59]

And I answered my way.

 

Yes, not answering the actual question is "your way."

[Bellhorn04]

No specifics.

 

It’s a question of priorities for you as a fan.

 

Do you prefer a winning team or a team of favorite players? It’s great when you have both. And keeping known names is certainly easier than rolling the dice to build a winner. But what would fans prefer?

 

If you like the Betts example, would he have made 2020 justifiably better? Or 2022?

 

With Betts it's not about him being a favorite, it's about him being one of the best players in the game, who got a deal that we can see was absolutely reasonable in terms of today's market.

[Old Red]

Why? You think he’d actually answer?

 

I answered it my way, and much to the chagrin of the few that it bothers. A winner every time.

[moonslav59]

I answered it my way, and much to the chagrin of the few that it bothers. A winner every time.

 

You confuse laughter with bother.

[moonslav59]

With Betts it's not about him being a favorite, it's about him being one of the best players in the game, who got a deal that we can see was absolutely reasonable in terms of today's market.

 

Yes, I have to think, in his case, keeping the "favorite" at a reasonable market rate would have also made us more likely to win.

[Old Red]

With Betts it's not about him being a favorite, it's about him being one of the best players in the game, who got a deal that we can see was absolutely reasonable in terms of today's market.

 

And a deal that JH didn’t want to pay, and now comes the next ones up in Bogey, and Raffy, and will JH give them a reasonable deal in todays market?

[notin]

With Betts it's not about him being a favorite, it's about him being one of the best players in the game, who got a deal that we can see was absolutely reasonable in terms of today's market.

 

You could say the same thing about Harper, but Washington won the year after he left…

[notin]

I answered it my way, and much to the chagrin of the few that it bothers. A winner every time.

 

Your way was a non-answer…

[moonslav59]

And a deal that JH didn’t want to pay, and now comes the next ones up in Bogey, and Raffy, and will JH give them a reasonable deal in todays market?

 

The Sox actually offered Betts very close to what he finally took from LAD, so I'm not so sure we can say that about JH, prior to trading him.

 

After the trade, with COVID and salary amounts in question, maybe the market fell to about the level JH's final offer was, but I think JH would have been okay with us taking on Mookie's current contract.

 

IMO, and I'm just speculating, I don't think we will say the same about whatever Bogey signs for. It will be significantly higher than whatever the Sox last offer was, if we ever find out for sure.

[mvp 78]

The Sox actually offered Betts very close to what he finally took from LAD, so I'm not so sure we can say that about JH, prior to trading him.

 

After the trade, with COVID and salary amounts in question, maybe the market fell to about the level JH's final offer was, but I think JH would have been okay with us taking on Mookie's current contract.

 

IMO, and I'm just speculating, I don't think we will say the same about whatever Bogey signs for. It will be significantly higher than whatever the Sox last offer was, if we ever find out for sure.

 

Betts got 20% more from LA. That's not very close IMO.

[mvp 78]

You could say the same thing about Harper, but Washington won the year after he left…

 

What do the Nats look like after Harper, Max and Turner have all left?

[Old Red]

What do the Nats look like after Harper, Max and Turner have all left?

 

Soto couldn’t save them either.

[mvp 78]

No specifics.

 

It’s a question of priorities for you as a fan.

 

Do you prefer a winning team or a team of favorite players? It’s great when you have both. And keeping known names is certainly easier than rolling the dice to build a winner. But what would fans prefer?

 

If you like the Betts example, would he have made 2020 justifiably better? Or 2022?

 

The Red Sox would be better with Betts on it for sure.

[moonslav59]

Betts got 20% more from LA. That's not very close IMO.

 

I'm always thinking AAV.

 

Also, differed money saves owners a ton.

[notin]

What do the Nats look like after Harper, Max and Turner have all left?

 

The Nats chose to tank.

 

Do you think the Sox will let Bogaerts walk and go into tank mode? There is an advantage to letting stats walk as well s a disadvantage…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

No specifics.

 

It’s a question of priorities for you as a fan.

 

Do you prefer a winning team or a team of favorite players? It’s great when you have both. And keeping known names is certainly easier than rolling the dice to build a winner. But what would fans prefer?

 

If you like the Betts example, would he have made 2020 justifiably better? Or 2022?

 

For me, 2020 would have been better watching Mookie in a Red Sox uniform. He wouldn't have won the World Series for Boston, though he maybe would've made the difference in three or four more Ws (if WAR actually translates to Wins Above Redsoxrecord). But being a fan of any team that Betts plays for is definitely more fun than not.

 

Overall, if fans are given a choice to think before responding, it's ultimately about winning -- if not, why even keep score?

 

Flashback to the offseason after 2004: no one wanted to see Pedro go, but logically most knew his days of dominance were numbered. I remember rationalizing that keeping Derek Lowe would be a better investment longterm. But can any Sox fan on the planet truthfully say s/he predicted the actual accurate contributions of the '04 champs' 5-man rotation going forward?

 

Post-04 WAR

8.8 Martinez

9.9 Schilling

11.1 Wakefield

14.4 Lowe

21.2 ARROYO

[mvp 78]

The Nats chose to tank.

 

Do you think the Sox will let Bogaerts walk and go into tank mode? There is an advantage to letting stats walk as well s a disadvantage…

 

Sox have recent history of tanking intentionally (12, 14, 20) so who knows?

[notin]

For me, 2020 would have been better watching Mookie in a Red Sox uniform. He wouldn't have won the World Series for Boston, though he maybe would've made the difference in three or four more Ws (if WAR actually translates to Wins Above Redsoxrecord). But being a fan of any team that Betts plays for is definitely more fun than not.

 

Overall, if fans are given a choice to think before responding, it's ultimately about winning -- if not, why even keep score?

 

Flashback to the offseason after 2004: no one wanted to see Pedro go, but logically most knew his days of dominance were numbered. I remember rationalizing that keeping Derek Lowe would be a better investment longterm. But can any Sox fan on the planet truthfully say s/he predicted the actual accurate contributions of the '04 champs' 5-man rotation going forward?

 

Post-04 WAR

8.8 Martinez

9.9 Schilling

11.1 Wakefield

14.4 Lowe

21.2 ARROYO

 

That’s a solid answer.

 

The absolutely reasons to want long time players around forever. Fans of the Tigers had very little to root for this year, but you know they were there to see Miggy get hit number 3,000.

 

It’s a tough call for me. I want a winner and enjoy watching the team do well, but I’ve watched some bad teams with players I always loved like Rice and Boggs. I wanted the Sox to keep Mookie, and was calling for his extension since David Price signed. I hate watching the Sox spend on all these players from other teams and obligate themselves to them for 6, 7, or 8 years (except Manny, who just knew how to win fans over).

 

But on the other hand, anyone who grew up watching players like Jackie Jensen or Frank Malzone saw good players every year for a slew of awful teams.

 

Building a winner is certainly harder than just keeping players. I think at some point, I’d like to have a winner as opposed to the same stars every year.

 

But get a deal done with Devers, s that could be a path to both…

[mvp 78]

The big difference was Pedro was clearly heading towards the end of his career. Betts and Xander still have several more years ahead of them. This is more Fisk/Lynn territory of watching beloved players leave and have All Star seasons elsewhere. When Clemens and Boggs left, the team was in a lot of turmoil, so it kind of made sense. Now? The Sox are supposedly a big market team, but they don't seem to act like it. Why only give big $$$ to players outside of the organization (Price/Story) and let homegrown guys leave?

[mvp 78]

But get a deal done with Devers, s that could be a path to both…

 

And if they don't get a deal done and let him go to FA too? Should we just put our hands up next offseason and say oh well?

[moonslav59]

The big difference was Pedro was clearly heading towards the end of his career. Betts and Xander still have several more years ahead of them. This is more Fisk/Lynn territory of watching beloved players leave and have All Star seasons elsewhere. When Clemens and Boggs left, the team was in a lot of turmoil, so it kind of made sense. Now? The Sox are supposedly a big market team, but they don't seem to act like it. Why only give big $$$ to players outside of the organization (Price/Story) and let homegrown guys leave?

 

They also knew Pedro's arm was hanging by a thread.

 

They were a big market team when they did the Dodger dump trade of CC with & Beckett & AGon, too.

[Hugh2]

They also knew Pedro's arm was hanging by a thread.

 

They were a big market team when they did the Dodger dump trade of CC with & Beckett & AGon, too.

 

Mookie probably breaks the cycle (age helps him) but the Sox actually have an above average track record of knowing when to move on from a guy.

 

Still, if Henry has a time machine I don’t think it’s 100% unreasonable to see Sale gone and Mookie locked up.

[Hugh2]

The big difference was Pedro was clearly heading towards the end of his career. Betts and Xander still have several more years ahead of them. This is more Fisk/Lynn territory of watching beloved players leave and have All Star seasons elsewhere. When Clemens and Boggs left, the team was in a lot of turmoil, so it kind of made sense. Now? The Sox are supposedly a big market team, but they don't seem to act like it. Why only give big $$$ to players outside of the organization (Price/Story) and let homegrown guys leave?

 

Does Xander really have that many years in front of him?

 

I could see him being a MLBer for another ten years! But I wouldn’t be surprised to see him hit a wall and no longer be an everyday player in just a few years.

 

It’s not unreasonable to assume something inbetween.

[notin]

And if they don't get a deal done and let him go to FA too? Should we just put our hands up next offseason and say oh well?

 

That does depend on other moves, doesn’t it?

[notin]

Sox have recent history of tanking intentionally (12, 14, 20) so who knows?

 

The Sox also have a history of winning titles in those non-tank years, right?