Best Red Sox SS of All Time

[Old Red]

It's not a question of being happy. The front office decided they had enough of a chance to make the playoffs not to fire sale. Blame it on the continually expanding playoffs if you want. The Phillies scraped in at 87-75 and nearly won it all.

 

You're calling fans crybabies for not giving up, and for not being forward-looking enough. Including fans who go to the park and pay the highest prices in baseball and generate a lot of revenue for the team.

 

Ah the Crybaby Fans comment the gift that keeps on giving. We consider the source, and move along, because complaining about other fans, because they don’t want to give up sounds like being a crybaby to me. Cheese with that whine?

Edited December 1, 2022 by Old Red

[Old Red]

So, is this the way of the future for the fans. You get as much as you can out of home grown talents and if they happen to be very very good, you trade them for fear of them not being able to perform for the remainder of any new contract unless of course they take the discount offered by management? I don't think that it is unusual for people to be upset by this. This I think would be a huge change with respect to the way the Sox have operated. There are some players you just don't let get away.

 

Agree 100%, and especially future HOF.

[notin]

Gammons on Bogaerts

 

 

[moonslav59]

Ah the Crybaby Fans comment the gift that keeps on giving. We consider the source, and move along, because complaining about other fans, because they don’t want to give up sounds like being a crybaby to me. Cheese with that whine?

 

Sounds like I struck a crybaby nerve

[moonslav59]

So, is this the way of the future for the fans. You get as much as you can out of home grown talents and if they happen to be very very good, you trade them for fear of them not being able to perform for the remainder of any new contract unless of course they take the discount offered by management? I don't think that it is unusual for people to be upset by this. This I think would be a huge change with respect to the way the Sox have operated. There are some players you just don't let get away.

 

There is a team that lets big stars go and still win. The Astros let Springer, Correa and Cole go.

[notin]

I haven’t heard anyone refute the low offer either. We have always differed on this, where you think Bogey should have come back with a counter offer, and my stance has been the offer was way to low to warrant a counter offer.

 

But you’re biased.

 

It s does make no sense for the Sox to refute the offer, as they would still have to continue negotiating. Publicly calling Scott Boras a liar does really throw a snag into that. It’s also very obvious which side leaked the story, and that type of thing is only done for political gain. It’s not done to keep people accurately informed.

 

And as Boras is a very experienced agent, I’m sure he has methods of dealing with lowball offers that is more involved than simply walking away. Of course, he does have a very well-known strategy (per an SI article many years ago) of simply saying “no!” to any and all offers and forcing suitors to bid against themselves. No idea if he still does this. But keeping Boston engaged to drive up the league wide price certainly only benefits him and his client. So that feels unlikely.

 

I’ve kept an open mind that they’re are more possibilities. You, as usual, assume you know everything.

 

I do acknowledge the possibility that the Sox simply don’t think Bogaerts will last at shortstop very well. Heck, I agree there. But unlike me, they would actually be aware of whether or not Bogaerts is willing to change positions. Maybe he just isn’t. Maybe not today anyway.

 

Or maybe they just like Correa better…

[Bellhorn04]

It's anybody's guess until something happens, that's for sure.

 

This other leak about Abreu being the Red Sox "number one outside target" is a real head-scratcher. Where did that come from?

 

If true, it's grim news...

[Bellhorn04]

There is a team that lets big stars go and still win. The Astros let Springer, Correa and Cole go.

 

Very true. OTOH they extended Altuve, Bregman and Alvarez...

[Old Red]

But you’re biased.

 

It s does make no sense for the Sox to refute the offer, as they would still have to continue negotiating. Publicly calling Scott Boras a liar does really throw a snag into that. It’s also very obvious which side leaked the story, and that type of thing is only done for political gain. It’s not done to keep people accurately informed.

 

And as Boras is a very experienced agent, I’m sure he has methods of dealing with lowball offers that is more involved than simply walking away. Of course, he does have a very well-known strategy (per an SI article many years ago) of simply saying “no!” to any and all offers and forcing suitors to bid against themselves. No idea if he still does this. But keeping Boston engaged to drive up the league wide price certainly only benefits him and his client. So that feels unlikely.

 

I’ve kept an open mind that they’re are more possibilities. You, as usual, assume you know everything.

 

I do acknowledge the possibility that the Sox simply don’t think Bogaerts will last at shortstop very well. Heck, I agree there. But unlike me, they would actually be aware of whether or not Bogaerts is willing to change positions. Maybe he just isn’t. Maybe not today anyway.

 

Or maybe they just like Correa better…

 

You have your whack a doodle take, and I’ll keep mine. Past Red Sox history like with Lester to me is the same thing, so coming out with a low offer would not be any kind of surprise, and nor would it be any kind of surprise the Red Sox would say how bad they want to keep Bogey for PR purposes. I don’t think it has anything to do with if Bogey will change positions either, and to think the Red Sox would pay even more money for Correa, who has no ties, or tangibles to Boston like Bogey does to me is a pipe dream. Since I’m supposed to assume I know everything I’m sure all my assumptions are correct. The part that doesn’t make any sense is why would the Red Sox make an offer that low if they really wanted to keep Bogey in the first place? I think no I know Bogey’s reaction to the offer told most that the reported offer was true.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Old Red

[Old Red]

Very true. OTOH they extended Altuve, Bregman and Alvarez...

 

Correa is pretty good, but they also has a pretty good SS ready to take his place.

[moonslav59]

Very true. OTOH they extended Altuve, Bregman and Alvarez...

 

Yes, some of them before arbs began.

 

They also have let some very key role players go to free agency, including Verlander (Cy Young winner), Brantley and Gurriel, this year, although there is talk they may bring Gurriel back, if Contreras is not signed.

 

Grenke

Keuchel

Morton

Osuna

Miley

Mchugh

[notin]

You have your whack a doodle take, and I’ll keep mine. Past Red Sox history like with Lester to me is the same thing, so coming out with a low offer would not be any kind of surprise, and nor would it be any kind of surprise the Red Sox would say how bad they want to keep Bogey for PR purposes. I don’t think it has anything to do with if Bogey will change positions either, and to think the Red Sox would pay even more money for Correa, who has no ties, or tangibles to Boston like Bogey does to me is a pipe dream. Since I’m supposed to assume I know everything I’m sure all my assumptions are correct. The part that doesn’t make any sense is why would the Red Sox make an offer that low if they really wanted to keep Bogey in the first place? I think no I know Bogey’s reaction to the offer told most that the reported offer was true.

 

Hey you said Bogaerts was too insulted to counteroffer.

 

Me? I doubt he was involved at all. Players don’t hire agents so everyone can talk money, and I’d be very surprised if any players sat in on negotiations. I’d actually suspect Boras prefer players not do so since he might figure all they can do is screw up his negotiation strategy.

 

The Lester case is irrelevant. Everyone in the Sox organization between owner and organist is different now. And certainly the “No 30 year old free agent pitcher” policy they had back then is long gone, as Price was 31 when they signed him for seven years…

[mvp 78]

3 future HOF.

 

Betts is probably a HOFer unless he gets some horrific injury. Bogaerts is off the ballot in one year unless he ages very well. Devers remains to be seen.

[mvp 78]

Hey you said Bogaerts was too insulted to counteroffer.

 

Me? I doubt he was involved at all. Players don’t hire agents so everyone can talk money, and I’d be very surprised if any players sat in on negotiations. I’d actually suspect Boras prefer players not do so since he might figure all they can do is screw up his negotiation strategy.

 

The Lester case is irrelevant. Everyone in the Sox organization between owner and organist is different now. And certainly the “No 30 year old free agent pitcher” policy they had back then is long gone, as Price was 31 when they signed him for seven years…

 

Even saying that once, just sets you up to look dumb.

[mvp 78]

Sox fans still have to have some doubt about the next decade of Raffy. He's already had weight issues and nagging injuries, and his defense -- while improved -- is still below a replacement player's. When he becomes a multi-kajillionaire set for nine lives, will he get complacent or more intense, to prove his worth? We just don't know.

 

Personally, I never had any of these doubts for Mookie -- the best hitter, best runner, and best fielder -- who always appeared a fine, upstanding individual from good stock, and a five-tool athlete in the best condition because of healthy lifestyles. His height or weight is not why he's suffered a few aches and pain; it's that breakneck style of play.

 

Devers won't be Beltre 93.5 WAR! or Miggy, but closer to a lefty Ramirez would be ok (statistically) -- hopefully more Manny 69.3 than Hanley 38.

 

I disagree that he's had weight issues or that his nagging injuries are anything worse than what Betts has gone through during his career. Arguably, Betts has had worse injuries that has impacted his game more severely (see 2021).

[Old Red]

Hey you said Bogaerts was too insulted to counteroffer.

 

Me? I doubt he was involved at all. Players don’t hire agents so everyone can talk money, and I’d be very surprised if any players sat in on negotiations. I’d actually suspect Boras prefer players not do so since he might figure all they can do is screw up his negotiation strategy.

 

The Lester case is irrelevant. Everyone in the Sox organization between owner and organist is different now. And certainly the “No 30 year old free agent pitcher” policy they had back then is long gone, as Price was 31 when they signed him for seven years…

Lester is not irrelevant, because JH is still the owner, and it was JH who met Lester out in the parking lot, and it is Still JH who writes the checks, so that being the case JH was, and STILL is the most important in the organization, and last I looked is still there. Bogey made the decision to resign with Boston before, and it will be Bogey’s decision again to stay, or leave Boston.

[mvp 78]

Sounds like I struck a crybaby nerve

 

Crybabies , pinkhats, pollyannas... What will you guys think of next? Very productive discourse!

[Old Red]

Crybabies , pinkhats, pollyannas... What will you guys think of next? Very productive discourse!

 

No it is not, but when you call out legions of fans as crybabies, because they don’t think like you, and you think it’s, because of them the Red Sox didn’t do what you wanted them to do like a fire sale that speaks volumes, and it’s not the first time he has called out fans as crybabies either.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I disagree that he's had weight issues or that his nagging injuries are anything worse than what Betts has gone through during his career. Arguably, Betts has had worse injuries that has impacted his game more severely (see 2021).

 

You're right, I shouldn't have called it an "issue." That's my own subjective reality, since everyone I've ever known who was told to lose a few pounds eventually had it turn into an issue when they put them back on.

 

But Raffy's a young man and pro athlete, so should have proper guidance, including trainers and nutritionists, to keep him fit at least through the next decade of a rich contract.

 

The injuries that happen to all these guys are typical, but how they adapt is what separates them as they mature. For example, if you rely on speed, pick your spots as a baserunner, because every slide is another body-slam into the earth. Or if you have a sore elbow or hammy, don't try to freaking crush every pitch...

[mvp 78]

You're right, I shouldn't have called it an "issue." That's my own subjective reality, since everyone I've ever known who was told to lose a few pounds eventually had it turn into an issue when they put them back on.

 

But Raffy's a young man and pro athlete, so should have proper guidance, including trainers and nutritionists, to keep him fit at least through the next decade of a rich contract.

 

The injuries that happen to all these guys are typical, but how they adapt is what separates them as they mature. For example, if you rely on speed, pick your spots as a baserunner, because every slide is another body-slam into the earth. Or if you have a sore elbow or hammy, don't try to freaking crush every pitch...

 

I can see the argument that Raffy COULD gain weight and hurt his career. However, a lot of the negative perception is due to the shape of his face and the fact that he's just generally a bigger guy. I think if he didn't come right after Pablo Sandoval, we wouldn't be as concerned.

 

I think Betts plays hard, but I wouldn't say he's as reckless as Pedroia, who often had shorter seasons due to nagging injuries and had a knack for diving headfirst into first base or whatever.

 

I think there's a bigger risk that a guy like Casas doesn't age well. He's already had a few injuries, carried a lot of weight when he was younger and is generally unathletic. If I had to bet money on someone having a shorter career, it'd be him.

[notin]

Even saying that once, just sets you up to look dumb.

 

Hey that was the rumored policy at the time. Obviously if it was an actual policy, it didn’t last.

 

But the bottom line is everything was different with Lester and all the names below Henry have changed since then…

[notin]

Lester is not irrelevant, because JH is still the owner, and it was JH who met Lester out in the parking lot, and it is Still JH who writes the checks, so that being the case JH was, and STILL is the most important in the organization, and last I looked is still there. Bogey made the decision to resign with Boston before, and it will be Bogey’s decision again to stay, or leave Boston.

 

So you think Henry takes no advice from his underlings on these matters?

 

If that’s the case, Bloom, Cherington and Dombrowski are all irrelevant…

[Old Red]

Hey that was the rumored policy at the time. Obviously if it was an actual policy, it didn’t last.

 

But the bottom line is everything was different with Lester and all the names below Henry have changed since then…

 

You still don’t get that Henry the guy with the checkbook, and the most important is still there, and he is the one that says yes, or no. Henry’s underlings doesn’t matter. The only thing different is Henry didn’t meet Bogey out in the parking lot like he did Lester. Maybe the parking lot attendant has changed. Does that count?

[moonslav59]

No it is not, but when you call out legions of fans as crybabies, because they don’t think like you, and you think it’s, because of them the Red Sox didn’t do what you wanted them to do like a fire sale that speaks volumes, and it’s not the first time he has called out fans as crybabies either.

 

They are crybabies not because they don't think like me.

 

They are crybabies because they wail, weep and bawl every time a move is made that is focused on the future and not instant gratification.

 

Yes, those who disagree with you also whine, cry or whatever you prefer to call it, but the term fits many posters after certain actions are taken or posts are made. If you want to include me as a crybaby or whiner, go ahead.

[mvp 78]

Hey that was the rumored policy at the time. Obviously if it was an actual policy, it didn’t last.

 

But the bottom line is everything was different with Lester and all the names below Henry have changed since then…

 

Let's go look and see what Management looked like in 2014.

 

VP, Asssistant GM Brian O'Halloran

 

Director, Player Development Ben Crockett

 

Assistant Director, Amateur Scouting Gus Quattlebaum

 

Senior Director, Minor League Operations Raquel Ferreira

 

I guess these are the 4 Horsemen that we can blame?

[Old Red]

So you think Henry takes no advice from his underlings on these matters?

 

If that’s the case, Bloom, Cherington and Dombrowski are all irrelevant…

Spin away to fit your narrative on this. Who said Henry doesn’t take advice from anyone? The answer is wait for it NO ONE. Henry has the final answer on if the check will clear, or not, so no matter who he has negotiate for him is maybe the irrelevant part, so you may have something right. I’m sure some are better negotiators though than others.

[mvp 78]

They are crybabies not because they don't think like me.

 

They are crybabies because they wail, weep and bawl every time a move is made that is focused on the future and not instant gratification.

 

Yes, those who disagree with you also whine, cry or whatever you prefer to call it, but the term fits many posters after certain actions are taken or posts are made. If you want to include me as a crybaby or whiner, go ahead.

 

I think if the future focused moves worked out, there'd be less need for crying. Unfortunately, a lot of the prospect deals haven't amounted to much.

[Old Red]

Let's go look and see what Management looked like in 2014.

 

VP, Asssistant GM Brian O'Halloran

 

Director, Player Development Ben Crockett

 

Assistant Director, Amateur Scouting Gus Quattlebaum

 

Senior Director, Minor League Operations Raquel Ferreira

 

I guess these are the 4 Horsemen that we can blame?

But through all of that it is Henry who writes the checks, and has the final decision, and that has been the answer all along, and still is.

[mvp 78]

But through all of that it is Henry who writes the checks, and has the final decision, and that has been the answer all along, and still is.

 

Henry doesn't do the drafting or implement overall strategy. He sets the budget and may have the final say on larger long term contracts. I don't think he gets involved in the Joelys of the world.

[mvp 78]

And if you truly believe Henry, then you have to remember what he said on air that he disagreed with the CC signing, but still agreed to the contract. He gets out of the way of the people that makes the decisions. He has said that he doesn't run the operations.