Best Red Sox SS of All Time

[dgalehouse]

Nomar was a really , really good ballplayer. As far as character goes , he is the kind of guy who would jump in the water to save someone who is drowning. Orlando Cabrera couldn't carry Nomar's jockstrap as a player or as a human being.

[notin]

Nomar was a really , really good ballplayer. As far as character goes , he is the kind of guy who would jump in the water to save someone who is drowning. Orlando Cabrera couldn't carry Nomar's jockstrap as a player or as a human being.

 

 

The bad teammate stories surrounding Orlando Cabrera are much, much worse.

 

I assumed the Sox simply moved from him in order to take advantage of loopholes in the free agent compensation system (and maybe they did), but the White Sox moved from him for reasons related to him being a selfish a-hole…

[moonslav59]

The bad teammate stories surrounding Orlando Cabrera are much, much worse.

 

I assumed the Sox simply moved from him in order to take advantage of loopholes in the free agent compensation system (and maybe they did), but the White Sox moved from him for reasons related to him being a selfish a-hole…

 

Hitting on other players' wives wasn't very good for the clubhouse, either.

 

The trade could not have been to improve team character, although Doug M. might have helped, a little. It was all about improving SS defense and stability, which it did, and that, IMO, made the difference in the end. Plus, OCab gave us more offense than we bargained for.

[Bellhorn04]

The bad teammate stories surrounding Orlando Cabrera are much, much worse.

 

I assumed the Sox simply moved from him in order to take advantage of loopholes in the free agent compensation system (and maybe they did), but the White Sox moved from him for reasons related to him being a selfish a-hole…

 

Well, whether the stories are all true or not, I can't say, but that's exactly what Nomar was accused of being in 2004 - selfish.

[moonslav59]

Well, whether the stories are all true or not, I can't say, but that's exactly what Nomar was accused of being in 2004 - selfish.

 

Apparently, he came to ST'ing already hurt, but pretended he got hurt there. I think that upset management from the start, and refusing the extension combined to make him dumpable.

[Bellhorn04]

Apparently, he came to ST'ing already hurt, but pretended he got hurt there. I think that upset management from the start, and refusing the extension combined to make him dumpable.

 

Yes, it all starts with the injury and the mystery about how and when it happened. Nomar said he got hit by a ball in batting practice before an exhibition game, but no one else remembered seeing it happen.

[dgalehouse]

If Theo felt that Nomar couldn't cut it at shortstop , it was his job to do something about it . I don't have a problem with that. Whether that trade was responsible for breaking the curse is a matter of opinion. Without Dave Roberts stolen base , Mueller's hit , Big Papi , Schilling and a few others heroics , as well as numerous other timely things , the trade for Cabrera would be long forgotten.

[notin]

Well, whether the stories are all true or not, I can't say, but that's exactly what Nomar was accused of being in 2004 - selfish.

 

For what and by who?

 

With Nomar, there was a lot of interpreting him sitting in the dugout as being selfish. Cabrera used to call the official scorer during games to get errors changed to either other players or into hits.

 

Also he allegedly was known for making moves on the wives of his teammates…

[notin]

Apparently, he came to ST'ing already hurt, but pretended he got hurt there. I think that upset management from the start, and refusing the extension combined to make him dumpable.

 

So he got injured and refused to sign an extension while injured? And folks are complaining about this? If only Chris Sale had followed suit…

[Bellhorn04]

If Theo felt that Nomar couldn't cut it at shortstop , it was his job to do something about it . I don't have a problem with that. Whether that trade was responsible for breaking the curse is a matter of opinion. Without Dave Roberts stolen base , Mueller's hit , Big Papi , Schilling and a few others heroics , as well as numerous other timely things , the trade for Cabrera would be long forgotten.

 

Sure, and the trade for Roberts would be even more forgotten.

[Bellhorn04]

So he got injured and refused to sign an extension while injured? And folks are complaining about this? If only Chris Sale had followed suit…

 

The allegations, of course, are that Nomar initially lied about the cause and severity of the injury. That's where it started. It led to suspicion he was jerking the team around because he was pissed about the contract situation.

[moonslav59]

So he got injured and refused to sign an extension while injured? And folks are complaining about this? If only Chris Sale had followed suit…

 

I'm saying that was part of the reason they looked to trade him. IMO, the biggest reason was his s***** D at SS- a key position for D, when going for a ring. The rest just made the choice easier.

[jad]

Ok. I think that answers my question. There is NO evidence whatsoever that he took PEDs. There is NO evidence whatsoever that he was a bad team-mate.

 

As for the charges against Cabrera, am I to assume from this that NO POSTER here (all of us, apparently, of impeccable morality), NONE has ever hit on a colleagues spouse? Never?

Edited October 22, 2022 by jad

[dgalehouse]

As far as I can tell , the entire steroids accusation is based on a magazine cover photo. That is all. The bad teammate accusation is based on one camera shot of the dugout , which has been contradicted by the well respected manager. Some fans just seem to take a dislike to some players. Why ? Who knows ?

[notin]

Ok. I think that answers my question. There is NO evidence whatsoever that he took PEDs. There is NO evidence whatsoever that he was a bad team-mate.

 

As for the charges against Cabrera, am I to assume from this that NO POSTER here (all of us, apparently, of impeccable morality), NONE has ever hit on a colleagues spouse? Never?

 

 

Not only have I never hit on a colleague’s spouse, I introduced a couple colleagues to their eventual spouses…

[notin]

As far as I can tell , the entire steroids accusation is based on a magazine cover photo. That is all. The bad teammate accusation is based on one camera shot of the dugout , which has been contradicted by the well respected manager. Some fans just seem to take a dislike to some players. Why ? Who knows ?

 

It was also a product of the times, a and I think Canseco named him in “Juiced!”, although admittedly I never read the book.

 

To me, if it’s based on an SI cover, clearly these accusations are made by people who never heard of Gabe Kapler…

[dgalehouse]

Not only have I never hit on a colleague’s spouse, I introduced a couple colleagues to their eventual spouses…

 

Hitting on a colleague's wife is probably more common than we like to think. However, it is still generally frowned upon. Not usually a sign of being a " good teammate".

[notin]

Hitting on a colleague's wife is probably more common than we like to think. However, it is still generally frowned upon. Not usually a sign of being a " good teammate".

 

It might be more common than I realize, but I have never done it…

[Bellhorn04]

Here's a good piece by Bob Ryan on Nomar's exit, that's very favorable to Nomar in many regards.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/08/03/who_was_hustling_in_all_this

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I know t this is laced with sarcasm, but there’s always someone who rewards this and doesn’t get the sarcasm and then still fails to realize how truly ridiculous it is to try and compare our lives to MLB players do directly.

 

I mean how am I supposed to imagine my agent turning anything down? (That’s not the entirety of the issues with this comp.)

 

I was actually defending Nomar -- and admittedly did a bad job -- for feeling unwanted; what human can't relate to that?

 

The Red Sox tried really hard to replace him, in public, but the union wouldn't allow it.

 

In the meantime, his own teammate, Kevin Millar, was interviewed on TV and asked who he preferred in his infield -- Nomar or ARod -- and came right and said ARod (mainly, because he thought ARod was a Red Sox and Nomar was not).

 

Again, how can anyone blame the guy for the awkward relationship with the entire franchise that followed?

 

Mrs: Sorry, I've fallen in love with someone else. He lives in Texas, but is moving in soon.

Mr: I'll back my bags.

Mrs. Wait, he just called and said he can't come. So you can stay... but only until I find another guy, maybe from Canada.

Mr: Swell.

[moonslav59]

Here's a good piece by Bob Ryan on Nomar's exit, that's very favorable to Nomar in many regards.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2004/08/03/who_was_hustling_in_all_this

 

Bob Ryan? LOL!

[Hugh2]

If the Sox retain Bogaerts, I assume he’s only the SS for maybe 2 or 3 seasons tops. I really don’t have a lot of faith in his defense, but it will come down to how much longer he can hit…

 

This is pure conjecture, but I feel the Sox are going to prioritize resigning one of Bogaerts and Devers and possibly let one walk. If it’s Bogaerts, they probably view him as a 3B in two years and you hope Mayer is ready to take the position over by then.

 

If that’s the case they still short either an infielder next year. SS/3B which is making me think the big move is a SS this off-season. If it’s not Bogaerts, it’s going to be one of the big names.

 

I think it’s possible they retain both Bogey and Devers but unlikely.

[redsoxrules]

I was a huge Nomar fan and always will be. You can't believe everything you read. He had great numbers with his tenure with the Sox and to this day I can't believe they traded him. The Sox win the WS in 2004 with or without Nomar. And the fact they didn't get a superstar for the trade is still mind boggling.

[redsoxrules]

This is pure conjecture, but I feel the Sox are going to prioritize resigning one of Bogaerts and Devers and possibly let one walk. If it’s Bogaerts, they probably view him as a 3B in two years and you hope Mayer is ready to take the position over by then.

 

If that’s the case they still short either an infielder next year. SS/3B which is making me think the big move is a SS this off-season. If it’s not Bogaerts, it’s going to be one of the big names.

 

I think it’s possible they retain both Bogey and Devers but unlikely.

 

I think they only way they retain both is to find a trade for Story. That trade from day one is going to block the Sox to retain both. That signing was a jerk move to show the fans they are spending the money and want to compete. Which contradicted their plans to reset for 2023. Still shaking my head at that signing

[moonslav59]

I was a huge Nomar fan and always will be. You can't believe everything you read. He had great numbers with his tenure with the Sox and to this day I can't believe they traded him. The Sox win the WS in 2004 with or without Nomar. And the fact they didn't get a superstar for the trade is still mind boggling.

 

If you look at his stats after the trade, it's very "believable," and it came at just the right time.

 

Nomar was going to be a FA, so he was basically a rental trade.

 

OCab was no slouch, but he was going to be a FA, too, so it was basically a wash there. Doug M was kind of a minor aspect of the trade. We needed defense at SS to make the team a WS contender. Nomar was never gong to give us that.

 

I don't think we win in 2004 with Nomar over OCab, but there is no way to know.

 

I remember, when the deal was made, I said to my fellow Sox fans brothers-in-laws, "We just won the ring by trading Nomar for Orlando Cabrera." They all said in unison, "Cabrera who?"

 

The rest is history.

 

It's almost always all about defense up the middle.

[redsoxrules]

If you look at his stats after the trade, it's very "believable," and it came at just the right time.

 

Nomar was going to be a FA, so he was basically a rental trade.

 

OCab was no slouch, but he was going to be a FA, too, so it was basically a wash there. Doug M was kind of a minor aspect of the trade. We needed defense at SS to make the team a WS contender. Nomar was never gong to give us that.

 

I don't think we win in 2004 with Nomar over OCab, but there is no way to know.

 

I remember, when the deal was made, I said to my fellow Sox fans brothers-in-laws, "We just won the ring by trading Nomar for Orlando Cabrera." They all said in unison, "Cabrera who?"

 

The rest is history.

 

It's almost always all about defense up the middle.

 

I don't recall Cabrera making any web gem plays for the red sox that made any impact on that team that year for them winning the world series. They won that with their potent offense along with their pitching. Cabrera ain't the reason they won the world series

[moonslav59]

I don't recall Cabrera making any web gem plays for the red sox that made any impact on that team that year for them winning the world series. They won that with their potent offense along with their pitching. Cabrera ain't the reason they won the world series

 

He was a very good defensive SS and way better than Nomar, especially the hobbled Nomar of '04. How could Nomar have done what OCab did for us? OCab gave us a 1.3 dWAR in less than 60 games.

 

He hit very well for us, too.

 

.294 w 26 XBHs in 58 games.

 

He then had 11 RBI in 14 playoff games with and .873 OPS vs the Yanks.

 

He got a big hit in game 4 vs the Yanks that drove in a run to make it 2-1. He went 2 for 6 w BB in game 5. 2-4 with big hit before Bellhorn's HR in game 6.

 

Game 7, he got on base 3 of 4 times, scored twice and had an RBI.

 

Hard to forget all that.

 

He was a big part of our winning effort in 2004.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by moonslav59

[Hugh2]

I think they only way they retain both is to find a trade for Story. That trade from day one is going to block the Sox to retain both. That signing was a jerk move to show the fans they are spending the money and want to compete. Which contradicted their plans to reset for 2023. Still shaking my head at that signing

 

At the time of the signing Storys stats were comparable to Bogaerts with better defense. They also needed a bat and an infielder. It was an excellent move, and it still could be, he still had one of the highest WARS on the team despite battling injury all year and with the new shift changes his defense will be more valuable at 2nd.

[Bellhorn04]

I was a huge Nomar fan and always will be. You can't believe everything you read. He had great numbers with his tenure with the Sox and to this day I can't believe they traded him. The Sox win the WS in 2004 with or without Nomar. And the fact they didn't get a superstar for the trade is still mind boggling.

 

You somehow missed that Nomar was a pale shadow of his former self from 2004 on. Get a superstar for him? That's just funny.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

He was a very good defensive SS and way better than Nomar, especially the hobbled Nomar of '04. How could Nomar have done what OCab did for us? OCab gave us a 1.3 dWAR in less than 60 games.

 

He hit very well for us, too.

 

.294 w 26 XBHs in 58 games.

 

He then had 11 RBI in 14 playoff games with and .873 OPS vs the Yanks.

 

He got a big hit in game 4 vs the Yanks that drove in a run to make it 2-1. He went 2 for 6 w BB in game 5. 2-4 with big hit before Bellhorn's HR in game 6.

 

Game 7, he got on base 3 of 4 times, scored twice and had an RBI.

 

Hard to forget all that.

 

He was a big part of our winning effort in 2004.

 

 

Cabrera was a great Red Sox in '04 -- money on all tough plays, clutch hitter, and a big part of the change in culture with the handshakes and celebrations among teammates.

 

Favorite moment after Game Seven in the Bronx: Cabrera turning to the crowd and holding up four fingers on one hand and a fist of nothing on the other. Four straight.