Best Red Sox SS of All Time

[iortiz]

Xander has a great bat but can’t hit in clutch moments and an awful glove.

[notin]

Well that's what go by. The people who qualified. You don't give the batting champion to a batter who doesn't have the AB.

 

MLB has rules for how many AB are required to qualify for a batting title. They have no such rules for how many innings one has to play in the field in order to qualify go out a Gold Glove…

[notin]

Only 12 qualified on that list.

 

He is 6th out of 12 in DRS.

 

If you increase the sample size to 15 (one for each AL Team), Bogey placed:

 

5th in UZR/150

 

7th in DRS

 

By far, his best season, but not top 3.

 

As much as Bogaerts got the generous spot here, no one is even talking about Correa who was much worse…

[mvp 78]

Pretty good= GG?

 

Was he really top 3?

 

He's 8th in UZR/150 at 4.7

 

DRS has never been his friend, but he was a +4, this year. Thatw as 14th and 10 runs below the top 3.

 

Don't get me wrong: I was thrilled to see him have his best defensive year,ever, but I don't see him as being top 3.

 

 

He was good, but not great. As I said the other day, a lot of his value came from being in the shift. When he was not shifting, his defense was a net negative.

[mvp 78]

As much as Bogaerts got the generous spot here, no one is even talking about Correa who was much worse…

 

Correa had a bad year. Soto was bad and he was nominated too.

 

As has been said numerous times, the GG award is a joke.

[Hugh2]

Does anyone else finds it concerning that all of Bogaert's positive defensive value came in the shift? Take the shift away and he had negative DRS. He's passable, but a move to 3B is enevitable.

[Hugh2]

I think it's worth saying over and over again as long as this thread is active. In his prime, Nomar was hands down the best SS to wear a Sox uniform. Heck, if injury didn't derail his career he would have been a first-ballot HOFer.

[moonslav59]

Well that's what go by. The people who qualified. You don't give the batting champion to a batter who doesn't have the AB.

 

They have given the GG to players who play way less than the min.

 

They gave the award to a player who played 28 games at 1B back in 1999- the rest at DH.

 

If you go by that, I could have expanded the rankings to 60 or 90 SSs.

[moonslav59]

I think it's worth saying over and over again as long as this thread is active. In his prime, Nomar was hands down the best SS to wear a Sox uniform. Heck, if injury didn't derail his career he would have been a first-ballot HOFer.

 

If you go by the best 2-3 year stretch, it's hard to beat this:

 

.292 69 303 (142 XBHs, 238 Runs)

.376 OBP/ .525 SLG/ .901 OPS

 

3 year:

.285 98 440 (204 XBH, 352 Runs)

.367/.507/.874

 

Nomar had the better BA and OPS, but never matched those HRs and RBIs by Vern Stephens.

 

1999-2000

.365 48 200 (148 XBHs, 207 Runs)

.426/.601/.1.028

 

'98-'00

.350 83 322 (228 XBHs, 318 Runs)

.404/.585/.999

 

[mvp 78]

Does anyone else finds it concerning that all of Bogaert's positive defensive value came in the shift? Take the shift away and he had negative DRS. He's passable, but a move to 3B is enevitable.

 

I'd move him to LF.

[mvp 78]

I think it's worth saying over and over again as long as this thread is active. In his prime, Nomar was hands down the best SS to wear a Sox uniform. Heck, if injury didn't derail his career he would have been a first-ballot HOFer.

 

PED's and a horrible SS. Nomar spent most of his time in a Sox uni saying all of his defensive deficiencies were due to Fenway's grounds crew.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

PED's and a horrible SS. Nomar spent most of his time in a Sox uni saying all of his defensive deficiencies were due to Fenway's grounds crew.

 

I don't know about the juice, but here are the five AL guys who played a minimum 900 games at shortstop from 1997-2003:

 

dWAR

Nomar 9.6

Vizquel 8.0

ARod 7.6

Tejada 3.5

Jeter -1.5 (that's negative)

 

... only one of the above is statistically horrible.

[Bellhorn04]

I think it's worth saying over and over again as long as this thread is active. In his prime, Nomar was hands down the best SS to wear a Sox uniform. Heck, if injury didn't derail his career he would have been a first-ballot HOFer.

 

At the same time, trading him in 2004 was one of the best moves in franchise history.

[moonslav59]

I don't know about the juice, but here are the five AL guys who played a minimum 900 games at shortstop from 1997-2003:

 

dWAR

Nomar 9.6

Vizquel 8.0

ARod 7.6

Tejada 3.5

Jeter -1.5 (that's negative)

 

... only one of the above is statistically horrible.

 

Nomar was a decent defensive SS, early on, but became a negative in his last 2-3 years in Boston.

 

IMO, he was all flash. His throwing on the run, while twisting, was often not needed, but made the play look harder than it really was.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

At the same time, trading him in 2004 was one of the best moves in franchise history.

 

Trade Deadline Day, July 31, 2004: Red Sox acquire glove whiz Orlando Cabrera, who hits a combined .293 in regular/postseason, Doug M. -- who catches the last out of the World Series -- and Dave Roberts, who runs faster than Kevin Millar.

 

Oddly, all soon have quirky character issues in Boston...(Roberts' character issue was named Machado).

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Nomar was a decent defensive SS, early on, but became a negative in his last 2-3 years in Boston.

 

IMO, he was all flash. His throwing on the run, while twisting, was often not needed, but made the play look harder than it really was.

 

How dare you use the eye test to counter the cold hard metrics I just presented.

[mvp 78]

Nomar was a decent defensive SS, early on, but became a negative in his last 2-3 years in Boston.

 

IMO, he was all flash. His throwing on the run, while twisting, was often not needed, but made the play look harder than it really was.

 

Disagree. If UZR and DRS were around earlier in his career, they would be just as ugly. His defense was overrated as hell.

[mvp 78]

At the same time, trading him in 2004 was one of the best moves in franchise history.

 

Should have traded him earlier in his career.

[mvp 78]

How dare you use the eye test to counter the cold hard metrics I just presented.

 

Yeah, it's just "coincidence" that his numbers tank once UZR, DRS and better fielding metrics are added.

[Bellhorn04]

Should have traded him earlier in his career.

 

Why?

[mvp 78]

Why?

 

He wuzza bum an I din' da guy.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yeah, it's just "coincidence" that his numbers tank once UZR, DRS and better fielding metrics are added.

 

My bad. I was just looking at one statistic, like some posters often do when they want to refute someone else's opinion.

 

According to dWAR, Nomar was the top defensive infielder in baseball in 2002, like Ozzie Smith in 1989, or Willie Mays, the best at all positions, in 1954.

[moonslav59]

How dare you use the eye test to counter the cold hard metrics I just presented.

 

There was no UZR or DRS for the early part of Nomar's career, but he sucked on D, near the end. Not my eye test, only.

 

He sucked. It wasn't even close.

[moonslav59]

Disagree. If UZR and DRS were around earlier in his career, they would be just as ugly. His defense was overrated as hell.

 

Maybe. I said decent, and people were ooooing and ayyying. Yes, he was always over-rated, but I think he was close to decent, early on. I won't argue if people say he was worse than decent.

[notin]

Correa had a bad year. Soto was bad and he was nominated too.

 

As has been said numerous times, the GG award is a joke.

 

Sometimes they just give it to a player who fields s as though his glove was made of solid gold…

[notin]

This thread makes no mention of the Sox all time team leader in DRS - Mike Aviles…

[moonslav59]

Sometimes they just give it to a player who fields s as though his glove was made of solid gold…

 

All it takes is gold paint?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Red Sox shortstops

Career leaders in dWAR

 

Everett Scott 16.3

Rico Petrocelli 14.4

Rick Burleson 12.4

John Valentin 12.2

Freddy Parent 10.9

Cherry Garciaparra 8.7

 

I know what you're thinking: would Freddy Parent get arrested if he dated Julia Child? It would've been awkward anyway: she was 6'2, while he stood 5'7.

[moonslav59]

Red Sox shortstops

Career leaders in dWAR

 

Everett Scott 16.3

Rico Petrocelli 14.4

Rick Burleson 12.4

John Valentin 12.2

Freddy Parent 10.9

Cherry Garciaparra 8.7

 

 

You are making a strong case for why dWAR should be totally ignored.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

You are making a strong case for why dWAR should be totally ignored.

 

Rooster!