Best Red Sox SS of All Time

[mvp 78]

Red Sox shortstops

Career leaders in dWAR

 

Everett Scott 16.3

Rico Petrocelli 14.4

Rick Burleson 12.4

John Valentin 12.2

Freddy Parent 10.9

Cherry Garciaparra 8.7

 

I know what you're thinking: would Freddy Parent get arrested if he dated Julia Child? It would've been awkward anyway: she was 6'2, while he stood 5'7.

 

Why was John Valentin moved off of SS for Nomar?

[moonslav59]

Rooster!

 

Bluster!

[moonslav59]

Why was John Valentin moved off of SS for Nomar?

 

Valentin was very under-rated.

Edited October 21, 2022 by moonslav59

[notin]

Why was John Valentin moved off of SS for Nomar?

 

Team player!!

[mvp 78]

Team player!!

 

Not Nomar!

[notin]

Not Nomar!

 

No, Valentin.

 

Although your hatred of Nomar feels a tad misplaced. Injuries slowed him down far too young, but he was one helluva player…

[Bellhorn04]

No, Valentin.

 

Although your hatred of Nomar feels a tad misplaced. Injuries slowed him down far too young, but he was one helluva player…

 

He was, but for me he has two clouds over him, a PED cloud and a malcontent/season saboteur cloud. As a result he's nowhere near my list of favorite Sox players.

[mvp 78]

He was, but for me he has two clouds over him, a PED cloud and a malcontent/season saboteur cloud. As a result he's nowhere near my list of favorite Sox players.

 

He had the nation in the palm of his hands and just took the wrong road. After the SI cover, it was all downhill.

 

Two thumbs down! Spudboy should have run him over.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

He was, but for me he has two clouds over him, a PED cloud and a malcontent/season saboteur cloud. As a result he's nowhere near my list of favorite Sox players.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and do chin-ups until it snaps: he did play in an era where his training regime quite possibly can be blamed for shortening his career.

 

As for your second point -- in contrast with another poster's -- if I ever call him horrible it won't be as a shortstop, but maybe as a teammate.

 

At least, it looked that way toward the end in a fateful Yankee game, when every Red Sox player was standing up cheering except one guy... pouting in a corner on the bench. Unfortunately for Nomar, the day he was sitting out also happened to be the same one when Jeter caught a pop-up, then ran across Kenmore Square and face-whomped onto the chair of a BU co-ed at Starbucks.

[notin]

I'm going to go out on a limb and do chin-ups until it snaps: he did play in an era where his training regime quite possibly can be blamed for shortening his career.

 

As for your second point -- in contrast with another poster's -- if I ever call him horrible it won't be as a shortstop, but maybe as a teammate.

 

At least, it looked that way toward the end in a fateful Yankee game, when every Red Sox player was standing up cheering except one guy... pouting in a corner on the bench. Unfortunately for Nomar, the day he was sitting out also happened to be the same one when Jeter caught a pop-up, then ran across Kenmore Square and face-whomped onto the chair of a BU co-ed at Starbucks.

 

That whole account of Nomar’s behavior during that game has been refuted multiple times by numerous members of the Red Sox organization, yet somehow because some Boston media clown who never talked to Nomar (presumably Steve Buckley, who hated Nomar for reasons no human ever knew or could possibly understand) decided yo use the work “sulking” and tried to make out about a contract, that story has stuck.

 

Francona has even said Nomar was ready to pinch hit for Trot Nixon (despite Nomar having two swollen Achilles’ tendons), but the Yankees didn’t bring in the lefty who has been warming up…

[notin]

He was, but for me he has two clouds over him, a PED cloud and a malcontent/season saboteur cloud. As a result he's nowhere near my list of favorite Sox players.

 

His name came up in a lot of PED conversation, but was there ever any evidence he used anything illegal? Bear in f during his career, lots of things are still legal…

[Bellhorn04]

That whole account of Nomar’s behavior during that game has been refuted multiple times by numerous members of the Red Sox organization, yet somehow because some Boston media clown who never talked to Nomar (presumably Steve Buckley, who hated Nomar for reasons no human ever knew or could possibly understand) decided yo use the work “sulking” and tried to make out about a contract, that story has stuck.

 

Francona has even said Nomar was ready to pinch hit for Trot Nixon (despite Nomar having two swollen Achilles’ tendons), but the Yankees didn’t bring in the lefty who has been warming up…

 

Nomar's behavior during that game was only one chapter in the story.

 

But even just sticking with the on-field aspects of his play that year, trading him was the right move.

[Bellhorn04]

His name came up in a lot of PED conversation, but was there ever any evidence he used anything illegal? Bear in f during his career, lots of things are still legal…

 

The evidence is purely circumstantial, admittedly. The SI cover and the way his body kind of fell apart. It's hard not to be cynical about that era.

[notin]

The evidence is purely circumstantial, admittedly. The SI cover and the way his body kind of fell apart. It's hard not to be cynical about that era.

 

Yeah I get all that. But I’m not one to condemn without proof of some sort…

[notin]

Nomar's behavior during that game was only one chapter in the story.

 

But even just sticking with the on-field aspects of his play that year, trading him was the right move.

 

The trade worked out perfectly, but he has talked about the frequent injuries and his depression.

 

Sox fans act like he was frustrated with the Sox not paying him and him taking it out on the team, but he played for 5 years after that 2004 season and only played 57 games at SS over those seasons. He wasn’t holding back on the Red Sox…

[moonslav59]

The trade worked out perfectly, but he has talked about the frequent injuries and his depression.

 

Sox fans act like he was frustrated with the Sox not paying him and him taking it out on the team, but he played for 5 years after that 2004 season and only played 57 games at SS over those seasons. He wasn’t holding back on the Red Sox…

 

There was also rumors he hurt himself in a non baseball way, and the Sox did him a favor by not making that public. Then he pouts, like it's the team not him that was wronged.

 

We dumped him just in time.

 

Some longer term affects of that trade:

 

For comp picks on OCab going FA:

 

Ellsbury

Lowrie

 

We later got Melancon for Lowrie and Holt for Lowrie.

We later got Kopech as a comp pick for losing Ellsbury and Sale for Kopech, Moncada and others.

 

The gift that kept on giving.

[jad]

Just for the record, since I remember Nomar quite differently, could someone please list the evidence for these claims: (1) PED use, and (2) more important, the statements by particular players or coaches claiming he was a bad team-mate. I'm sure they exist, but I've never seen one.

 

Thanks.

[Bellhorn04]

Just for the record, since I remember Nomar quite differently, could someone please list the evidence for these claims: (1) PED use, and (2) more important, the statements by particular players or coaches claiming he was a bad team-mate. I'm sure they exist, but I've never seen one.

 

Thanks.

 

As I said, the PED evidence is circumstantial.

 

If you want to dig into the bad team-mate stuff, it's really all about the injury he had in 2004, and it's well-documented.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

As I said, the PED evidence is circumstantial.

 

If you want to dig into the bad team-mate stuff, it's really all about the injury he had in 2004, and it's well-documented.

 

It's all perception, like most of reality.

 

But I saw the game in question on TV, and remember when the NESN camera found him sitting alone on the bench, with every other player around him standing on the top step. No viewers, however, have evidence of whether Tito or the trainer told him to stay down, lest he stub his toe and have to brace himself with his sore wrist.

 

If anyone was really sulking, it was Sox fans, whose hero couldn't or wouldn't play on a day when his counterpart rival was gamely gnawing on a hundred year-old metal armrest in the third row.

[Bellhorn04]

I think the most reliable evidence that Nomar was hurting the team was that they traded him, and got back another shortstop who was obviously not nearly as good a hitter.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It's all perception, like most of reality.

 

But I saw the game in question on TV, and remember when the NESN camera found him sitting alone on the bench, with every other player around him standing on the top step. No viewers, however, have evidence of whether Tito or the trainer told him to stay down, lest he stub his toe and have to brace himself with his sore wrist.

 

If anyone was really sulking, it was Sox fans, whose hero couldn't or wouldn't play on a day when his counterpart rival was gamely gnawing on a hundred year-old metal armrest in the third row.

 

And as far as the perceived "sulking" -- what employee of any company wouldn't be grumpy if you knew one winter your agent turned down a $60 million dollar offer, you were being replaced by the wonder boy of the industry, and were being transferred to Chicago. And then to top it all off, the new guy went to New York instead, and your old team that didn't want you had to keep you around after all...

[Bellhorn04]

And as far as the perceived "sulking" -- what employee of any company wouldn't be grumpy if you knew one winter your agent turned down a $60 million dollar offer, you were being replaced by the wonder boy of the industry, and were being transferred to Chicago. And then to top it all off, the new guy went to New York instead, and your old team that didn't want you had to keep you around after all...

 

And remarkably enough, the guy who was to be traded for the wonder boy, Manny Ramirez (along with Jon Lester, reportedly), didn't get upset about it and had another great season.

 

It was a mere $12 million shortfall that may have radically altered Red Sox history.

[notin]

It's all perception, like most of reality.

 

But I saw the game in question on TV, and remember when the NESN camera found him sitting alone on the bench, with every other player around him standing on the top step. No viewers, however, have evidence of whether Tito or the trainer told him to stay down, lest he stub his toe and have to brace himself with his sore wrist.

 

If anyone was really sulking, it was Sox fans, whose hero couldn't or wouldn't play on a day when his counterpart rival was gamely gnawing on a hundred year-old metal armrest in the third row.

 

 

He talks about that.

 

https://www.audacy.com/national/sports/nomar-clears-air-on-why-he-sat-against-yankees-in-2004-game

[Hugh2]

There was no UZR or DRS for the early part of Nomar's career, but he sucked on D, near the end. Not my eye test, only.

 

He sucked. It wasn't even close.

 

I agree with this, he’s boot a ball or make a bad throw and accumulate a few more errors than Jeter, but he had much better range and more than up for it by making plays that most other shortstops would just never make.

 

His defense dropped because he hit a wall, it happens, and it happens quicker when a guy gets injured. When Nomar was healthy he was an asset on both sides of the ball

[Hugh2]

At the same time, trading him in 2004 was one of the best moves in franchise history.

 

This is such a great point, it makes for interesting conversations as well when you consider extending a guy like Bogaerts. He could age well and be worth more than whatever contract he gets, whether it be 150 million or 225 million. He could also his a wall and be nearly worthless from here on out.

 

The same could be said for anyone we pay to replace him.

[notin]

As I said, the PED evidence is circumstantial.

 

If you want to dig into the bad team-mate stuff, it's really all about the injury he had in 2004, and it's well-documented.

 

The injury is well documented. The bad teammate stuff to me seems to be a bunch of fans watching a game and thinking “I would not do that” and then leaping to conclusions

[notin]

And as far as the perceived "sulking" -- what employee of any company wouldn't be grumpy if you knew one winter your agent turned down a $60 million dollar offer, you were being replaced by the wonder boy of the industry, and were being transferred to Chicago. And then to top it all off, the new guy went to New York instead, and your old team that didn't want you had to keep you around after all...

 

I know t this is laced with sarcasm, but there’s always someone who rewards this and doesn’t get the sarcasm and then still fails to realize how truly ridiculous it is to try and compare our lives to MLB players do directly.

 

I mean how am I supposed to imagine my agent turning anything down? (That’s not the entirety of the issues with this comp.)

[moonslav59]

I agree with this, he’s boot a ball or make a bad throw and accumulate a few more errors than Jeter, but he had much better range and more than up for it by making plays that most other shortstops would just never make.

 

His defense dropped because he hit a wall, it happens, and it happens quicker when a guy gets injured. When Nomar was healthy he was an asset on both sides of the ball

 

I'm the driver of the bandwagon that claims Jeter was the absolute worst defensive SS of his era, so saying Nomar was better than him says basically nothing good.

[notin]

This is such a great point, it makes for interesting conversations as well when you consider extending a guy like Bogaerts. He could age well and be worth more than whatever contract he gets, whether it be 150 million or 225 million. He could also his a wall and be nearly worthless from here on out.

 

The same could be said for anyone we pay to replace him.

 

If the Sox retain Bogaerts, I assume he’s only the SS for maybe 2 or 3 seasons tops. I really don’t have a lot of faith in his defense, but it will come down to how much longer he can hit…

[notin]

I'm the driver of the bandwagon that claims Jeter was the absolute worst defensive SS of his era, so saying Nomar was better than him says basically nothing good.

 

Jeter did help himself by being a cornerstone of MLB’s most popular franchise and playing during the “Let’s Give Awards To Bad Shortstops” Era.

 

It’s really an indictment the entire Gold Glove system that horrible defensive players like Jeter, Edgar Renteria, and Michael Young combined to win 8 Gold Gloves while far superior defenders Adam Everett, Jack Wilson, and Rafael Furcal have 0 combined awards.

 

It turns out, Sox fans, Renteria might have just been an overrated defensive player given awards he didn’t deserve…