Dombrowski in Cherington Out

[SoxnCycles]

That article lets Ben off easy.

 

Do you want to kick his dog, before he leaves town?

[mvp 78]

"To much reliance on analytics."

 

Really? That was Ben's problem? I'd love to see the analytics that showed him to get Panda and why it was definitely not a pure marketing move...

[Dojji]

Yeah I'm with MVP. Too many people advancing their own opinion as fact

[iortiz]

The moves did not look bad on paper. They also did not look bad to most scouts and talent evaluators. By a large majority, this team was favored to win the division. The people who do baseball for a living, analytics guys and scouting types, did not see all of this as being pretty predictable. In fact, they predicted a very good team. And I'm not talking about just Boston guys, I'm talking across baseball.

 

That's the thing, the big moves were not good on paper.

[cp176]

So, Dombrowski MUST be better?

 

Right...

 

That is how you interpreted what I wrote. That is not what I meant at all. Since you are the logical thinker, I guess I think it is logical to see that issue both ways.

[cp176]

Do you really think a career player development director who traded two blue chip prospects for Josh Beckett doesn't know #4?

 

I'm fairly sure he knows something about the value of pitching for sure. You are saying that it was all Ben with respect to the Beckett deal?

[sk7326]

I'm fairly sure he knows something about the value of pitching for sure. You are saying that it was all Ben with respect to the Beckett deal?

 

Well he and Jed were the co-GMs at the time, so it is not an unreasonable call. Now it is possible that they were in conflict and Hoyer won an arm wrestling contest or something. I will be curious where he ends up. One suspects his standing in the industry was not tarred too much by this.

[cp176]

Well he and Jed were the co-GMs at the time, so it is not an unreasonable call. Now it is possible that they were in conflict and Hoyer won an arm wrestling contest or something. I will be curious where he ends up. One suspects his standing in the industry was not tarred too much by this.

 

He will be just fine I would think. Chicago bound maybe?

[sk7326]

He will be just fine I would think. Chicago bound maybe?

 

Chicago, LA (which are kind of Red Sox satellite operations now) ... on the BBTN podcast Law noted that Philadelphia would make all sorts of sense for him too.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi - Come on

 

Ben Cherington

 

1. Large contracts given to free agents

2. Not trading prospects and reluctantly bringing them up to the big club

3. Too much reliance on analytics - not enough balance

4. Does not recognize the importance of solid pitching and solid defense

 

Ben Cherington is an excellent person by all accounts. Good luck to him. Time for a change.

 

The only one I really agree with here is #2. He, like Theo, perhaps holds on to his prospects a little too tightly. That said, I think we are all thankful that he was insistent on not trading Betts, Bogaerts, and Swihart. OTOH, he was willing to part with Iglesias in 2013. Regardless, I prefer Ben's strategy of dealing with prospects over Dombrowski's. Would you agree that building a good team for the short and long terms starts with the farm, and not with free agents?

 

#1 - What large contracts are you referring to? I don't consider Hanley's large. Panda's was too long, but I am not convinced that that was Ben's doing. When I say large contract, my definition is anything over 4 years, Prince Fielder type.

 

#3 - JMO, but I think there was more reliance on scouting than most people think. The Sox have a rather large scouting department. Put another way, I think Ben gave more credence to scouting than Dombrowski has given to analytics.

 

#4 - The pitching and defense should have been better than what they were. That said, fair point about not focusing on stronger starting pitching this season.

[Kimmi]

Here's a good analysis on Ben's downfall by Dave Cameron.

 

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/story/boston-red-sox-general-manager-ben-cherington-downfall-hanley-ramirez-081915

 

Very fair article.

 

There are a couple of points that I don't agree with, but it's a good analysis, and like I said, fair.

[cp176]

The only one I really agree with here is #2. He, like Theo, perhaps holds on to his prospects a little too tightly. That said, I think we are all thankful that he was insistent on not trading Betts, Bogaerts, and Swihart. OTOH, he was willing to part with Iglesias in 2013. Regardless, I prefer Ben's strategy of dealing with prospects over Dombrowski's. Would you agree that building a good team for the short and long terms starts with the farm, and not with free agents?

 

#1 - What large contracts are you referring to? I don't consider Hanley's large. Panda's was too long, but I am not convinced that that was Ben's doing. When I say large contract, my definition is anything over 4 years, Prince Fielder type.

 

#3 - JMO, but I think there was more reliance on scouting than most people think. The Sox have a rather large scouting department. Put another way, I think Ben gave more credence to scouting than Dombrowski has given to analytics.

 

#4 - The pitching and defense should have been better than what they were. That said, fair point about not focusing on stronger starting pitching this season.

 

Hopefully no one would question that the health of a solid franchise begins with the farm. Non-debatable for me. That being said, I also do not believe in stock piling players forever. I also am not as sure as some seem to be that the "farm" is all that healthy. Outside of Rodriguez and Bogaerts, if the moves actually looked like they might help us, I think that I would move just about anyone.

 

I consider Ramirez's contract long term. I consider Sandoval's contract long term. I really think that a contract is long term when you might be blocking a better player from moving up. I would add Castillo's contract to that list.

 

#3 - I really don't know much about this one. Only what I have read. I believe that you must use all available help when it comes to assembling a quality team. But - I will also add that the stats don't do a very good job of measuring the mental aspects of the game.

 

I just looked over that 2013 roster again because I thought that I was confused. It didn't look that good to me. I believe that mental toughness, character, and chemistry played a great role in the success of that year. if Ben was responsible for that then heres to him.

 

I really like these back and forths with you Kimmi but maybe you could tell sox and whatever that I don't dislike you and he doesn't need to support you by being nasty to me. I have some people that have my back to and I appreciate it but it is not necessary here. I like you.

[iortiz]

Kimmi - Come on

 

Ben Cherington

 

1. Large contracts given to free agents

2. Not trading prospects and reluctantly bringing them up to the big club

3. Too much reliance on analytics - not enough balance

4. Does not recognize the importance of solid pitching and solid defense

 

Ben Cherington is an excellent person by all accounts. Good luck to him. Time for a change.

 

Pretty much this.

 

It's early but I like the DD move. At least it seems like he is going to have the empowerment and freedom to make the calls.

[jacksonianmarch]

You guys who are whining about this are f***ing crazy. The sox are a gigantic mess on the big league side yet have a lot of minor league talent coming down the pipe. And Dombrowski is an absolute expert at selling prospects high and picking which ones will s*** the bed.

 

Dombrowski was GM of the Marlins and was building a farm on a limited budget when he got the mandate to win now in 1997. He did. He went out and signed the best players available and melded them with burgeoning talent and won it all. He then was forced to deal off the entire crew he brought in. The talent he brought in didn't pop under his direction, but it did win a title in 2003. He drafted Josh Beckett. He dealt Al Leiter to get AJ Burnett. Looper, the closer was acquired for Renteria. Penny was acquired for Mantei. Lee was acquired for Kevin Brown. He dealt for Mike Lowell. He signed Miguel Cabrera as a INTL FA. He is a guy who built a team and won a title, dismantled that team, and with the parts he acquired allowed the club to win a year after he left.

 

As the GM of the Tigers, he endured the second worst season ever in 2002. But that year, he built. He drafted Granderson and Zumaya in 02. Verlander selected in 04. He dealt for Carlos Guillen and signed Magglio Ordonez and Pudge. By 2006, he was in the world series. He retooled the team time and again, trading talented young players and getting either more talent in return or established players who dominated.

 

His deal for Miguel Cabrera was a stroke of genius. Cabrera came with Willis, but getting the best hitter in baseball for a failed starter and a late blooming CFer was awesome. He struck gold again by dealing former top prospect Jacob Turner for Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante. He got Austin Jackson and Max Scherzer for Curtis Granderson. He got Doug Fister for a song. He dealt a guy who eventually lost his shoulder for Price and then got two top prospects for him this year.

 

The guy is okay with developing talent but absolutely awesome at dealing away guys he doesn't think will be good. If it wasn't for Ilitch being 93 and wanting to WIN NOW!!! he probably would still be there. I mourn this decision, because I think Dombrowski has the track record and now the autonomy to turn your team around

[jad]

The only one I really agree with here is #2. He, like Theo, perhaps holds on to his prospects a little too tightly. That said, I think we are all thankful that he was insistent on not trading Betts, Bogaerts, and Swihart. OTOH, he was willing to part with Iglesias in 2013. Regardless, I prefer Ben's strategy of dealing with prospects over Dombrowski's. Would you agree that building a good team for the short and long terms starts with the farm, and not with free agents?

 

#1 - What large contracts are you referring to? I don't consider Hanley's large. Panda's was too long, but I am not convinced that that was Ben's doing. When I say large contract, my definition is anything over 4 years, Prince Fielder type.

 

#3 - JMO, but I think there was more reliance on scouting than most people think. The Sox have a rather large scouting department. Put another way, I think Ben gave more credence to scouting than Dombrowski has given to analytics.

 

#4 - The pitching and defense should have been better than what they were. That said, fair point about not focusing on stronger starting pitching this season.

 

I must be missing something. How can you not consider H. Ramirez' contract large?? It's 22million per year through 2019.

[a700hitter]

You guys who are whining about this are f***ing crazy. The sox are a gigantic mess on the big league side yet have a lot of minor league talent coming down the pipe. And Dombrowski is an absolute expert at selling prospects high and picking which ones will s*** the bed.

As a group, Red Sox fans can't help but root for and defend the underdog, and Ben is like a blind dog who can't sniff his own ass.

[sk7326]

You guys who are whining about this are f***ing crazy. The sox are a gigantic mess on the big league side yet have a lot of minor league talent coming down the pipe. And Dombrowski is an absolute expert at selling prospects high and picking which ones will s*** the bed.

 

Dombrowski was GM of the Marlins and was building a farm on a limited budget when he got the mandate to win now in 1997. He did. He went out and signed the best players available and melded them with burgeoning talent and won it all. He then was forced to deal off the entire crew he brought in. The talent he brought in didn't pop under his direction, but it did win a title in 2003. He drafted Josh Beckett. He dealt Al Leiter to get AJ Burnett. Looper, the closer was acquired for Renteria. Penny was acquired for Mantei. Lee was acquired for Kevin Brown. He dealt for Mike Lowell. He signed Miguel Cabrera as a INTL FA. He is a guy who built a team and won a title, dismantled that team, and with the parts he acquired allowed the club to win a year after he left.

 

As the GM of the Tigers, he endured the second worst season ever in 2002. But that year, he built. He drafted Granderson and Zumaya in 02. Verlander selected in 04. He dealt for Carlos Guillen and signed Magglio Ordonez and Pudge. By 2006, he was in the world series. He retooled the team time and again, trading talented young players and getting either more talent in return or established players who dominated.

 

His deal for Miguel Cabrera was a stroke of genius. Cabrera came with Willis, but getting the best hitter in baseball for a failed starter and a late blooming CFer was awesome. He struck gold again by dealing former top prospect Jacob Turner for Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante. He got Austin Jackson and Max Scherzer for Curtis Granderson. He got Doug Fister for a song. He dealt a guy who eventually lost his shoulder for Price and then got two top prospects for him this year.

 

The guy is okay with developing talent but absolutely awesome at dealing away guys he doesn't think will be good. If it wasn't for Ilitch being 93 and wanting to WIN NOW!!! he probably would still be there. I mourn this decision, because I think Dombrowski has the track record and now the autonomy to turn your team around

 

I think Dombrowski could do a good job. What you say about the big league club is not unreasonable. The issue - and the concern - is throwing out the good stuff organizationally, which is considerable. He also let the Tigers system rot so that the team got old all at once. Now I don't think that was all his choice - Ilitch wanted it that way. But he is great at shaping a big league roster, and this team needs that. Cherington won't be out of work long, so nobody should pity him - Philadephia under McPhail would be a good match for one. I am more alarmed at the possibility of Frank Wren, who did a horrible job in Atlanta, being the GM. If Dombrowski is empowered to put his stamp without throwing out the good stuff (the scouting and development machine), there is a good fit here.

[jacksonianmarch]

Dombrowski took the worst non expansion team in history and turned them into perennial contenders in 3 years. From 06-14, they were either in the playoffs or on the cusp in every year. From worst AL team ever to 9 years of sustained great play is not a bad thing. With the purse open and the farm system talented, he'll make a lot of moves. You'll be better the next two seasons, but come 2018, you'll be a perennial playoff contender

[mvp 78]

DUMBrowski had 4 s***** years in Detroit before getting to the playoffs. Through 4 years, Ben actually won something.

 

Here's to 4 more years until he can turn this around, I guess.

[Bellhorn04]

DUMBrowski had 4 s***** years in Detroit before getting to the playoffs. Through 4 years, Ben actually won something.

 

Yes, but Ben had Pedroia.

[reYoukilis]

I wonder how many of Cheringtons moves will end up working out and DD getting credit.

[a700hitter]

I wonder how many of Cheringtons moves will end up working out and DD getting credit.

Probably a number of our prospects, but not too many MLB acquisitions.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

Yeah, I don't get why some people think Koji was a nobody, until getting to Boston.

 

Oh I understand how good he was. But as others have said he was acquired to be a set up, instead he turned into Dennis Eckersly and nobody saw that coming. Again Koji as the closer was never the plan, Ben lucked out that it worked out so well.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Yaz Fan Since '67

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

DUMBrowski had 4 s***** years in Detroit before getting to the playoffs. Through 4 years, Ben actually won something.

 

Here's to 4 more years until he can turn this around, I guess.

 

This still amazes me. As posted before he took over one of the worst teams in baseball. To trash a guy for getting a team like that to a constant playoff team in only 4 years is ridiculous.

 

Ben on the other hand took over a team that he already won 2 rings and turned them into last place teams 3 times in 4 years with moves like hiring Bobby Valentine. That clusterf*** of a team you are watching every night for the past 2 years is the team that Ben delivered to you. I have been a fan since '67 and the good thing about being a Red Sox fan was always the fact that they were competitive year after year. Old guys like me have never been through a stretch like this and he is to blame.

 

Every Red Sox fan understands that '13 was a fluke, Hell this board had the consensus early that year that the team was not talented enough to be a contender. But the big fly by Ortiz to tie Game 2 changed everything and Ben got credit for a ring that they really lucked into with many of the key players already on the team when he got here.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Yaz Fan Since '67

[User Name]

A lot of DD's more "high-profile" moves were Ilitch driven. I lived in Michigan at the time of the Fielder signing, and DD publicly stated in a visit to WMU that he didn't think the team needed Fielder (or any other high-profile FA) at the time.

[SoxnCycles]

Oh I understand how good he was. But he was acquired to be a set up' date=' instead he turned into Dennis Eckersly and nobody saw that coming. Again Koji as the closer was never the plan, Ben lucked out that it worked out so well.[/quote']

 

If you look around league, closers rise and fall quite a bit.

No one thought much of Zach Britton in Balt, before 2014.

 

He was a bad reliever with a WHIP 1.725 in 2013.

The next year, he's got 37 saves and a WHIP of .904.

 

Unless you've a closer like Kimbrel, Chapman or a handful of other guys that are consistently reliable from year to year, the closer role is as much of a gamble as other spots in the bullpen.

[SoxnCycles]

This still amazes me. As posted before he took over one of the worst teams in baseball. To trash a guy for getting a team like that to a constant playoff team in only 4 years is ridiculous.

 

Ben on the other hand took over a team that he already won 2 rings and turned them into last place teams 3 times in 4 years. Every Red Sox fan understands that '13 was a fluke, Hell this board had the consensus early that year that the team was not talented enough to be a contender. But the big fly by Ortiz to tie Game 2 changed everything and Ben got credit for a ring that they really lucked into with many of the key players already on the team when he got here.

 

Sorry, that's wrong.

 

Any team needs a certain about of luck to win a WS.

Some fans use the "fluke" tag to avoid giving BC any credit.

 

Why that's such a bad thing is something I still can't figure out.

[User Name]

This still amazes me. As posted before he took over one of the worst teams in baseball. To trash a guy for getting a team like that to a constant playoff team in only 4 years is ridiculous.

 

Ben on the other hand took over a team that he already won 2 rings and turned them into last place teams 3 times in 4 years with moves like hiring Bobby Valentine. That clusterf*** of a team you are watching every night for the past 2 years is the team that Ben delivered to you. I have been a fan since '67 and the good thing about being a Red Sox fan was always the fact that they were competitive year after year. Old guys like me have never been through a stretch like this and he is to blame.

 

Every Red Sox fan understands that '13 was a fluke, Hell this board had the consensus early that year that the team was not talented enough to be a contender. But the big fly by Ortiz to tie Game 2 changed everything and Ben got credit for a ring that they really lucked into with many of the key players already on the team when he got here.

 

This board usually has a "consensus" on negativity-driven opinions, no news there. The whole "2013 was a fluke" angle is nonsense. He made solid moves that worked out for that particular season and should get credit for it. The fact that they didn't work out afterwards is an entirely different set of circumstances.

[Behindenemylines]

I wonder how many of Cheringtons moves will end up working out and DD getting credit.

 

That is the price he paid when not trading young players for a top of the rotation starter. There has to be a mix of using some of the chips in your system to repair holes on your major league club and keeping some to add youth to team.

[SoxnCycles]

That is the price he paid when not trading young players for a top of the rotation starter. There has to be a mix of using some of the chips in your system to repair holes on your major league club and keeping some to add youth to team.

 

I think he would've tried to do that before the July deadline, if the rest of the team hadn't been so lousy.