Dombrowski in Cherington Out

[SoxHop]

No way can you call year 13 a fluke........ there was some luck involved............. but when isn't there when winning the whole thing...........

 

Nap and Vic and Koji were all identified as gamers and were brought in to win with a pretty good pitching staff in 13............ they called it right getting the rights pieces that round.

 

This 2015 round of acquiring a supporting cast everything was called wrong............

 

but the building around a nucleus is going to always be a cycle............ when you call it right you have to get credit for it too......

[reYoukilis]

Very solid, accurate and realistic post.

That is not an accurate and realistic post. To bring up Ortiz's home run as some reason 13 was a fluke is ridiculous. Every WS win has those moments, that's how they get won. And it wasn't just that moment that won it either. The writing on the wall started appearing when they went on that west coast swing and were supposed to get beat by the Dodgers but ended up beating them. Not sure if it was a sweep or not.

 

But further than that, the 13 team was built with known quality character guys like Victorino, Gomes. And they also got a great backup catcher in David Ross. I could go on but what Cheribgton got them for, they did. How is that a fluke? I know because he then went and got Hanley and Sandoval, guys that are very un-2013-ish. Guys that dont play fundamentally sound or for each other. Well I chalk that up to the same reason he hired Valentine, because he was pressured to and he caved. I love how people are blaming Cherington for Valentines hiring when he was exactly everyone was clamoring for with chicken and beer incident. People demanded that the red sox needed a less player friendly manager because the clubhouse was out of control, well you got it, it didn't work.

 

But Cherington did make the call and should be blamed for it. I think he's smart but not cut out for Boston. I think he could do better in a small market team where he could implement his sabre metric ways with more leeway.

[iortiz]

2013 was fluke year. The stars aligned. No one expected what most of the players delivered that year, not even the FO.

 

On the other hand, I won't take away credit to any member of that team, included the FO.

[iortiz]

When you see consistency and success (like DET in recent years) year after year and then you win it all, you can make a case that a plan and a strategy aligned with the execution, was in effect to support the result. 2013 Boston Red Sox is in the middle of 3 horrible years (last place in every year) reason why I call it fluke... But again, without taking away credit to any player in that year... Where some of them put their best numbers in their careers and will never happen again... look at Koji, just for name one. Edited August 22, 2015 by iortiz

[a700hitter]

Ben was at the helm for 2013 and he gets the credit for it. It was a perfect season almost from beginning to end. When the starters faltered, the bullpen stepped up. The starters came out of spring training on fire. Buch ignited us with 11-0 to start the season and a miniscule ERA. When the pitchers needed a big out, our fielders invariably came up with big plays. When the fielders made errors, the pitchers picked them up. If we made a base running mistake, our hitters made up for it and the players picked up Farrell every time he made a mistake.

 

What Ben didn't do in building the 2013 team was build a foundation of a consistently good team. People mistakenly believed that Ben had come up with a winning formula for other teams to imitate. The 2013 team was built on a foundation that couldn't support consistent success -- one of the main pitchers (Buchholz) and hitters (Victorino) have chronic injury issues. Napoli has two bad hips and his performance has been decaying for 2 seasons. He kept each of these diminishing players (in health and skill) for the next 2 years and their performances fell off a cliff. The healthy younger players from the 2013 team were allowed to walk away over the next 2 seasons -- Ellsbury, Lester, and Lackey. He let our stud horses walk and he retained the broken down war horses. He also put much too much reliance on too many unproven rookies in the following season.

 

Yes, Ben was the architect of 2013, but he also dismantled that team in the following year and kept all the wrong parts.

Edited August 22, 2015 by a700hitter

[iortiz]

Ben was at the helm for 2013 and he gets the credit for it. It was a perfect season almost from beginning to end. When the starters faltered, the bullpen stepped up. The starters came out of spring training on fire. Buch ignited us with 11-0 to start the season and a miniscule ERA. When the pitchers needed a big out, our fielders invariably came up with big plays. When the fielders made errors, the pitchers picked them up. If we made a base running mistake, our hitters made up for it and the players picked up Farrell every time he made a mistake.

 

What Ben didn't do in building the 2013 team was build a foundation of a consistently good team. People mistakenly believed that Ben had come up with a winning formula for other teams to imitate. The 2013 team was built on a foundation that couldn't support consistent success -- one of the main pitchers (Buchholz) and hitters (Victorino) have chronic injury issues. Napoli has two bad hips and his performance has been decaying for 2 seasons. He kept each of these diminishing players (in health and skill) for the next 2 years and their performances fell off a cliff. The healthy younger players from the 2013 team were allowed to walk away over the next 2 seasons -- Ellsbury, Lester, and Lackey. He let our stud horses walk and he retained the broken down war horses. He also put much too much reliance on too many unproven rookies in the following season.

 

Yes, Ben was the architect of 2013, but he also dismantled that team in the following year and kept all the wrong parts.

 

Koji was not even the closer when the season started and no one in this planet saw his performance coming, not even the most optimistic. David Ortiz posted a ridiculous OPS specially in PO. Lackey came from hell. Lester was a stud specially in PO. Etc.

 

I mean, everything was so perfect. If you try to do it again 1 million times in the middle of 3 disaster years, the probabilities are close to zero since those years will suggest you that a good plan is not in effect... reason why I call it fluke.

[a700hitter]

Koji was not even the closer when the season started and no one in this planet saw his performance coming, not even the most optimistic. David Ortiz posted a ridiculous OPS specially in PO. Lackey came from hell. Lester was a stud specially in PO. Etc.

 

I mean, everything was so perfect. If you try to do it again 1 million times in the middle of 3 disaster years, the probabilities are close to zero since those years will suggest you that a good plan is not in effect... reason why I call it fluke.

Ben gets credit for bringing in Uehara, but he didn't bring in Uehara as the closer. Uehara had not been a closer for most of his career. He had always had trouble holding up under heavy workloads. He was expected to be 1 of the 7 th inning arms. Ben tapped two fat bums to close for us -- the perpetually injured Andrew Bailey and the extremely wild Hanrahan. Had they not both blown out their arms, Koji never would have had the opportunity to have one of the greatest closer seasons in history. Koji was never expected to close for us.

[iortiz]

Ben gets credit for bringing in Uehara, but he didn't bring in Uehara as the closer. Uehara had not been a closer for most of his career. He had always had trouble holding up under heavy workloads. He was expected to be 1 of the 7 th inning arms. Ben tapped two fat bums to close for us -- the perpetually injured Andrew Bailey and the extremely wild Hanrahan. Had they not both blown out their arms, Koji never would have had the opportunity to have one of the greatest closer seasons in history. Koji was never expected to close for us.

I remember that Ben was even trying to bring back Papelbon since our closers were pathetic. It was so great to see Taz and Koji in 2013, it was an automatic win when we were winning after the 7th.

[mvp 78]

2013 was fluke year. The stars aligned. No one expected what most of the players delivered that year, not even the FO.

 

On the other hand, I won't take away credit to any member of that team, included the FO.

 

I won't take credit away, but it was a fluke!

 

Huh?

[mvp 78]

I remember that Ben was even trying to bring back Papelbon since our closers were pathetic. It was so great to see Taz and Koji in 2013, it was an automatic win when we were winning after the 7th.

 

Paps wasn't coming back. Ben was never trying to do that.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

Not even close.

 

Last Place

Champion

Last Place

Last Place

 

While you may not agree I think most see that one season as a fluke, how can they not? So does that mean the other 3 seasons were the flukes? Not in my opinion. When you throw in the fact that they lost their closer right before the opener and you have to admit very few saw this coming.

 

Sure there was some turnover from year to year but not that much to result in this pattern This is not a Florida Marlins situation. This pattern has never been seen in the history of baseball, probably professional sports and that includes cricket in India and cockroach racing in Australia.

 

On another note I agree with you that the team is not in horrible shape right now. But good God they need to get a rotation.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Yaz Fan Since '67

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

Yes, Ben was the architect of 2013, but he also dismantled that team in the following year and kept all the wrong parts.

 

 

John Lester was the horse that pulled the wagon on that team. Every champ has one dominant lights out starter and he was the man for the Red Sox.

 

David Ortiz saved the playoff series with his grand slam against Detroit, then was the World Series MVP with a batting average that would rival a slow pitch softball star

 

Dustin Pedroia was Dustin Pedroai, the heart and soul of the team and a great great player

 

As you mentioned Buch was great that year too and his contribution was huge.

 

Jacoby Elsbury's effects were obvious, when he played they won and when he didn't they struggled. He was one of the keys to that team for sure.

 

What do all these players have in common? Every one was already in place when Ben took over. Now Koji, that was a key acquisition no doubt. But not sure how you can claim that Ben was the "architect" of this team when nearly every key player on that team was in place before he took control.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Yaz Fan Since '67

[User Name]

I don't think some of you understand what the word "fluke" actually means.

[mvp 78]

An ugly fish.

[Kimmi]

According to the Ben devotees, the excuse for Ben is that he had no autonomy under Lucchino and that is why he screwed up the team. He stayed and worked under LL's thumb, but now he demands autonomy that he never had? That makes no sense.

 

Ben did not have complete autonomy with Lucchino on board, but he was able to make many decisions. And at least ownership shared in his philosophy.

 

Part of Dombrowski's deal and the reason the Sox were able to sign him was that he was given complete control of baseball ops. Cherington would have suffered a huge demotion, in principle, despite retaining his title of GM.

 

You can argue this all you want, but you know I'm right about this. I doubt that most GMs would have done any differently in his shoes.

[Kimmi]

The devotees claimed he had no autonomy on the bad moves but credited him for the good moves. I am certain that he would have had some autonomy under DD.

 

Ben had his share of "bad" moves. I think Hanley and Porcello were both his moves. I think Panda was Lucchino's. Miley feels like Ben move, as does the Lackey trade.

 

With the hiring of Dombrowski, Ben was being demoted. Again, the message sent by the owners was clear. There is no other way to take that. If you would be okay staying in that situation, then more power to you. I would not, and I don't blame Ben one bit for stepping down.

[Kimmi]

Ben gets credit for bringing in Uehara, but he didn't bring in Uehara as the closer. Uehara had not been a closer for most of his career. He had always had trouble holding up under heavy workloads. He was expected to be 1 of the 7 th inning arms. Ben tapped two fat bums to close for us -- the perpetually injured Andrew Bailey and the extremely wild Hanrahan. Had they not both blown out their arms, Koji never would have had the opportunity to have one of the greatest closer seasons in history. Koji was never expected to close for us.

 

So, because Koji was never expected to close for us, Ben got lucky? No, if Ben were lucky, then either Bailey or Hanrahan would have worked out. Not everything went perfectly for the 2013 team, like so many claim. It's the fact that that team had good depth when something went wrong that they were able to keep stride. That is not luck or fluky, that is good team building.

[Kimmi]

Last Place

Champion

Last Place

Last Place

 

While you may not agree I think most see that one season as a fluke, how can they not? So does that mean the other 3 seasons were the flukes? Not in my opinion. When you throw in the fact that they lost their closer right before the opener and you have to admit very few saw this coming.

 

Sure there was some turnover from year to year but not that much to result in this pattern This is not a Florida Marlins situation. This pattern has never been seen in the history of baseball, probably professional sports and that includes cricket in India and cockroach racing in Australia.

 

On another note I agree with you that the team is not in horrible shape right now. But good God they need to get a rotation.

 

The 2012 season really needs to be thrown out. The Bobby Valentine factor cannot be overlooked.

 

In the other 3 years, the plan during each offseason was solid. In 2013, it worked, In the other 2 years, it didn't. That doesn't mean that it was a fluke, just because it only worked one year out of the 3. Yes, a lot of things went right, but that is the case with every team that wins the WS. That's like saying every WS Championship was a fluke.

 

Honestly, I think 2014 and 2015 are more of a fluke than 2013. Despite those who claim that they saw this coming, there is not one person who can honestly say that they saw things being anywhere near this bad. Even those who predicted a 3rd or 4th place finish this season felt like we had a chance to stay in contention. This season has most definitely been a fluke, or as some like to call it, an enigma.

[a700hitter]

So, because Koji was never expected to close for us, Ben got lucky? No, if Ben were lucky, then either Bailey or Hanrahan would have worked out. Not everything went perfectly for the 2013 team, like so many claim. It's the fact that that team had good depth when something went wrong that they were able to keep stride. That is not luck or fluky, that is good team building.

 

It wasn't good team building for the long run as there were a number of crumbling building blocks which were retained and the solid blocks were discarded.

[iortiz]

Paps wasn't coming back. Ben was never trying to do that.

 

A lot of reports said that Ben was asking for him at the time, I clearly remember.

[iortiz]

I won't take credit away, but it was a fluke!

 

Huh?

 

Yup, it's not hard to understand.

[a700hitter]

Ben had his share of "bad" moves. I think Hanley and Porcello were both his moves. I think Panda was Lucchino's. Miley feels like Ben move, as does the Lackey trade.

 

With the hiring of Dombrowski, Ben was being demoted. Again, the message sent by the owners was clear. There is no other way to take that. If you would be okay staying in that situation, then more power to you. I would not, and I don't blame Ben one bit for stepping down.

 

There is no evidence that Panda was a Luchinno move -- none. There is no significant income stream attached to Panda. There is not a lot of Panda merchandise sold and whatever is sold gets split 30 ways. We would have got the same cut if San Diego signed him.

[Kimmi]

It wasn't good team building for the long run as there were a number of crumbling building blocks which were retained and the solid blocks were discarded.

 

It was exactly good team building for the long run. The parts that were brought in to supplement were signed on short term deals. The plan was to keep the team competitive in the short term while building for the long term. The short term part did not work out the past two years, but IMO, the long term goal is right where Ben wanted it to be.

 

As I've said before, the Sox should have signed Lester last ST. That was a big time screw up.

 

Ellsbury? Not so much. Yes, the team missed him in 2014, but his contract was too much. Is there anybody who would want Ells and his contract now over Mookie? Anybody?

[Kimmi]

There is no evidence that Panda was a Luchinno move -- none. There is no significant income stream attached to Panda. There is not a lot of Panda merchandise sold and whatever is sold gets split 30 ways. We would have got the same cut if San Diego signed him.

 

There is no proof that Panda was a Lucchino move, just as there is no proof that he was not. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that it was. Just my opinion, based on what I've read. That is just not the type of deal that seems like the type that Ben likes to make.

[a700hitter]

 

Sure there was some turnover from year to year but not that much to result in this pattern This is not a Florida Marlins situation. This pattern has never been seen in the history of baseball, probably professional sports and that includes cricket in India and cockroach racing in Australia.

 

The Marlins case was a travesty, but easy to understand. It wasn't a failure of management. They had spent a ton of money and won a championship. They didn't make any money so they decided to sell off all of their valuable assets and drove their payroll to negligible level. Not surprisingly, they finished last. The Red Sox have maintained one of the highest payrolls throughout this period and still finished last 3 times. That is what highlights the failure of management is how they squandered their assets and resources. This record of futility is unprecedented in sports. No professional sports team with one of the highest payrolls has finished last in 3 out of 4 years. That cannot be sugar coated. That cannot be excused or explained away by spinning and just fabricating facts. That is not a bridge year. That is not building for the future. It is just abject failure.

[a700hitter]

There is no proof that Panda was a Lucchino move, just as there is no proof that he was not. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that it was. Just my opinion, based on what I've read. That is just not the type of deal that seems like the type that Ben likes to make.

No there isn't anectodal evidence. There is only internet rumor. Edited August 22, 2015 by a700hitter

[Bellhorn04]

I never thought I'd see the day that Red Sox fans would be so determined to label a championship won by their team as a fluke.

[a700hitter]

The 2012 season really needs to be thrown out. The Bobby Valentine factor cannot be overlooked.

 

.

This is just intellectually dishonest. If you can throw out 2012, then you have no leg to stand on when others want to throw out 2013. Your arguments follow the same pattern. Everything good that happened was Ben's brilliant creation and everything bad that happened was not his fault -- Valentine, Luchinno, reactive fans, etc etc. His record is his record. He is accountable and does not shrink from it. What I find humorous is that you don't want to hold him accountable for any of the failures that happened on his watch, but you are ready to give him credit for successes after he is gone. Too funny.

[a700hitter]

It was exactly good team building for the long run. The parts that were brought in to supplement were signed on short term deals. The plan was to keep the team competitive in the short term while building for the long term. The short term part did not work out the past two years, but IMO, the long term goal is right where Ben wanted it to be.

 

As I've said before, the Sox should have signed Lester last ST. That was a big time screw up.

 

Ellsbury? Not so much. Yes, the team missed him in 2014, but his contract was too much. Is there anybody who would want Ells and his contract now over Mookie? Anybody?

Any plan that includes finishing last in the two years following a championship while spending more than almost any team in baseball is not a plan that anyone would want.

[iortiz]

The 2012 season really needs to be thrown out. The Bobby Valentine factor cannot be overlooked.

 

In the other 3 years, the plan during each offseason was solid. In 2013, it worked, In the other 2 years, it didn't. That doesn't mean that it was a fluke, just because it only worked one year out of the 3. Yes, a lot of things went right, but that is the case with every team that wins the WS. That's like saying every WS Championship was a fluke.

 

Honestly, I think 2014 and 2015 are more of a fluke than 2013. Despite those who claim that they saw this coming, there is not one person who can honestly say that they saw things being anywhere near this bad. Even those who predicted a 3rd or 4th place finish this season felt like we had a chance to stay in contention. This season has most definitely been a fluke, or as some like to call it, an enigma.

2012 needs to be thrown because of the BV factor? Really? LOL!

 

Also, the 2014 and 2015 plans were solid and more fluke? LOL! This is why Ben is very gone.

 

Regarding 2015 I said that the rotation was going to be the worst of the last ten years. It wasn't but it was close.

Edited August 22, 2015 by iortiz