Dombrowski in Cherington Out

[Kimmi]

I must be missing something. How can you not consider H. Ramirez' contract large?? It's 22million per year through 2019.

 

Well it's large from the standpoint that any athlete making $22 mil a year is crazy. But in terms of baseball contracts, I don't consider it large relative to other contracts, such as a Fielder or Pujols contract. More to the point though, it was not large because the past 3 years, Hanley has been worth $16.6 mil, $37.4 mil, and $24.9 mil. It looks horrible right now, but it was not a bad contract.

[Kimmi]

I wonder how many of Cheringtons moves will end up working out and DD getting credit.

 

Dombrowski is in great shape because Ben left the long term outlook of the team in great shape. As bad as the team has looked the past two years, the team is not in as dire shape as some believe it is. We have a solid core of young players. We still have a great farm system. Outside of maybe one of either Hanley's or Panda's contracts, we have no albatross contracts that will handcuff the team. Two or three key moves by Dombrowski this offseason, particularly with starting pitching, and the team could be back in contention next year.

[Kimmi]

I think Dombrowski could do a good job. What you say about the big league club is not unreasonable. The issue - and the concern - is throwing out the good stuff organizationally, which is considerable. He also let the Tigers system rot so that the team got old all at once. Now I don't think that was all his choice - Ilitch wanted it that way. But he is great at shaping a big league roster, and this team needs that.

 

You hit the nail on the head there. Dombrowski did a great job of turning the Tigers around to make them a contender for several years running. However, I'm wondering if we're starting to see the beginning of a long swoon for the Tigers, which is often the price you pay for the "win now at any cost" mentality.

 

From what I understand, their farm system is barren. Moreover, VMart and Verlander may already have become financial burdens, and Cabrera is likely to soon follow. This year may just be a bump in the road for the Tigers, but it may be a sign of things to come.

 

It might have been Ilitch's doing and not Dombrowski's, but I certainly hope we don't see that philosophy take hold here. It's very similar to what Sox fans have historically disliked so much about the Yankees. The majority of the time, it will look good for the short term, but long term it will take its toll.

[Kimmi]

Every Red Sox fan understands that '13 was a fluke' date=' [/quote']

 

Not even close.

[Kimmi]

I think he would've tried to do that before the July deadline, if the rest of the team hadn't been so lousy.

 

I really wish Ben would have been given the chance to clean up his mess. As I've said, I don't think the team is that far off. I'm willing to bet that he would have made a big splash this offseason for a top starting pitcher.

[Kimmi]

Sorry just way more bad than good in the Ben regime IMO.

 

Perhaps, but it also depends on how you look at it. As I've said before, I think the team is in good shape for the long term, which I believe was Ben's ultimate goal. However, the "filling in the holes" part for the short term has gone horribly wrong the past two years.

[a700hitter]

I really wish Ben would have been given the chance to clean up his mess. As I've said, I don't think the team is that far off. I'm willing to bet that he would have made a big splash this offseason for a top starting pitcher.

 

He was given the opportunity to stay on.

[dupree]

DUMBrowski is going to execute Steven Wright.

How? Is he gonna put him in the rotation or in front of a firing squad?

 

Either way he gets shelled

[Kimmi]

Fielder, verlander and VMart? Those are some pretty talented and accplishes players. They are all still pretty good despite being passed their primes. Porcello and Panda are not the same class of player.

 

It's funny that Fielder's contract is being praised in the same breath that Panda's is being criticized. For all the flack Panda has taken for being fat, Fielder is even fatter. He is arguably a much worse defender than Panda is, outside of this season. Also, his contract is twice the size of Panda's.

 

As far as Verlander and VMart still being pretty good, Verlander is being paid approximately $25 mil this year for a 0.8 WAR, a 4.11 ERA, and a 4.45 xFIP. And he's signed for four more years. He may bounce back, but he might not.

 

VMart is being paid $17 mil this year for a -0.9 WAR and a -50.8 UZR/150 (very small sample size). He is signed for 3 more years. He may also bounce back, or not.

 

The point is, those contracts currently look every bit as bad as, if not worse than, Porcello's and Panda's.

[Kimmi]

Dombrowski is an accomplished MLB GM that seems to be an odd fit in Boston. I have some of Kimmi's concerns but I am glad that the Sox have moved on and look forward to seeing what the guy does.

 

He does seem like an odd fit, given what the philosphy of the owners has been. I wouldn't say I'm looking forward to seeing what he does, but I'm very curious to see what happens this offseason. My only hope is that the organization does not go 180 on what their philosophy has been. That would be a huge mistake, IMO.

[Kimmi]

He was given the opportunity to stay on.

 

Why would he stay on in a job where he would not have much voice in anything, working for a boss with the completely opposite philosophy from his?

 

Despite the "we would have really liked him to stay" sentiment, the owners' message to him was quite clear. Unfortunate, IMO.

 

Dombrowski has also stated that he is not interested in finding a GM who is an analytics guy, "for balance". He is going to do things his way.

[a700hitter]

Why would he stay on in a job where he would not have much voice in anything, working for a boss with the completely opposite philosophy from his?

 

Despite the "we would have really liked him to stay" sentiment, the owners' message to him was quite clear. Unfortunate, IMO.

 

Dombrowski has also stated that he is not interested in finding a GM who is an analytics guy, "for balance". He is going to do things his way.

If he felt that his plan was going to come to fruition, he should have stayed. He would still have been the GM and gotten the credit.

[Kimmi]

If he felt that his plan was going to come to fruition, he should have stayed. He would still have been the GM and gotten the credit.

 

Not if he's not going to be the one fulfilling the plan. He can watch his plan come to fruition just as easily from elsewhere. If I'm Ben, I'm certainly not staying in a position where I'm not wanted.

[a700hitter]

Not if he's not going to be the one fulfilling the plan. He can watch his plan come to fruition just as easily from elsewhere. If I'm Ben, I'm certainly not staying in a position where I'm not wanted.

If he was certain that he had them on the right track, he should have stayed. That's just my opinion. They all said that they wanted him to stay. As the GM, he would have been credited with a fair bit of the success. By leaving will get no credit except from the Ben devotees.

[Kimmi]

If he was certain that he had them on the right track, he should have stayed. That's just my opinion. They all said that they wanted him to stay. As the GM, he would have been credited with a fair bit of the success. By leaving will get no credit except from the Ben devotees.

 

I disagree. First of all, it comes down to integrity. Why stay in a job when you know you have no autonomy? It might be one thing if they had similar philosophies and would agree on most of the moves. It's an entirely different thing when you know your opinion is bound to be overruled on most decisions, and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

Secondly, regardless of whether he stayed or not, he would not get any credit from the Ben bashers. All credit would go to Dombrowski.

[Bellhorn04]

If he was certain that he had them on the right track, he should have stayed. That's just my opinion. They all said that they wanted him to stay. As the GM, he would have been credited with a fair bit of the success. By leaving will get no credit except from the Ben devotees.

 

Ha, are you kidding? Since 2004 one of the biggest debates on Sox message boards has been about how much credit Duquette should get for the championships.

 

Sox fans never forget anything and will argue until doomsday about stuff like that.

[mvp 78]

Ha, are you kidding? Since 2004 one of the biggest debates on Sox message boards has been about how much credit Duquette should get for the championships.

 

Sox fans never forget anything and will argue until doomsday about stuff like that.

 

Something something Haywood Sullivan.

 

Ben should get all the credit and blame for people he has drafted, signed or traded for.

[a700hitter]

Ha, are you kidding? Since 2004 one of the biggest debates on Sox message boards has been about how much credit Duquette should get for the championships.

 

Sox fans never forget anything and will argue until doomsday about stuff like that.

Yes, Douquette devotees and/or Theo haters give him credit. There has been no decision on how much credit Dan deserves as there will be none as to what Ben deserves.

[a700hitter]

I disagree. First of all, it comes down to integrity. Why stay in a job when you know you have no autonomy? It might be one thing if they had similar philosophies and would agree on most of the moves. It's an entirely different thing when you know your opinion is bound to be overruled on most decisions, and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

Secondly, regardless of whether he stayed or not, he would not get any credit from the Ben bashers. All credit would go to Dombrowski.

According to the Ben devotees, the excuse for Ben is that he had no autonomy under Lucchino and that is why he screwed up the team. He stayed and worked under LL's thumb, but now he demands autonomy that he never had? That makes no sense.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, Douquette devotees and/or Theo haters give him credit. There has been no decision on how much credit Dan deserves as there will be none as to what Ben deserves.

 

Most if not all Sox fans give Duquette some of the credit for the 2004 championship team. It would be unreasonable not to. The argument is over how much credit.

 

As for a 'decision', there can never be one on matters like this.

[Bellhorn04]

According to the Ben devotees, the excuse for Ben is that he had no autonomy under Lucchino and that is why he screwed up the team. He stayed and worked under LL's thumb, but now he demands autonomy that he never had? That makes no sense.

 

That's a bit of an oversimplification. Ben's 'devotees' have speculated that the acquisitions of Panda and/or Hanley may have come from Lucchino or Werner wanting some sexy signings for the fans.

 

We don't know exactly how many moves Ben had the final say on. But we do know he wouldn't have the final say on any moves from now on.

[mvp 78]

And Ben haters were quick to claim the AGon/Beckett trade was due to Henry and not Ben...

[a700hitter]

Most if not all Sox fans give Duquette some of the credit for the 2004 championship team. It would be unreasonable not to. The argument is over how much credit.

 

As for a 'decision', there can never be one on matters like this.

But if Ben stayed he would be the presiding GM over the success. By leaving, it will always be a debate. His draftees will have to pan out, because his trade acquisitions are bombing.

[a700hitter]

And Ben haters were quick to claim the AGon/Beckett trade was due to Henry and not Ben...

Yes, that is true, but there were articles indicating JH's involvement that stoked that argument.

[a700hitter]

That's a bit of an oversimplification. Ben's 'devotees' have speculated that the acquisitions of Panda and/or Hanley may have come from Lucchino or Werner wanting some sexy signings for the fans.

 

We don't know exactly how many moves Ben had the final say on. But we do know he wouldn't have the final say on any moves from now on.

The devotees claimed he had no autonomy on the bad moves but credited him for the good moves. I am certain that he would have had some autonomy under DD.

[sk7326]

It is possible - but the terms of the gig changed ... so leaving is not a surprise. His resume was a mixed bag, but yes the two last place finishes deserve derisive finger wags (as I've noted the 2012 finish was mostly entirely injury driven). As usual, it's reductive to look at his tenure from either perspective. And since the tenure had a World Championship in it, that makes it one of the two most successful regimes in the last 97 years. And as has been noted elsewhere - the real amount of "blame" that exists will be assessed by the market, and how quickly he gets hired (assuming he wants to find a gig for 2016 - that's not television or something).

 

Edes had a good piece on GM candidates. Frank Wren would be a terrible choice. But David Chadd perhaps wouldn't be - Dombrowski's scouting director who came to Boston and drafted Lester and Papelbon prior to being replaced by Jason McLeod. He drafted Beckett and Adrian Gonzalez too (although at #2 and #1, which typically does not require great detective work so much as owners who are not cheap). One hopes the ownership still places a good deal of emphasis on scouting and development, at least as much as they have the decade prior - and Chadd would make a lot of sense there.

 

The GM gig fundamentally changed in Boston now - probably a reason Cherington left as much as anything. It's a genuine job reduction - since there is an El Presidente who will be in charge of - well, the moves you'd think a GM would make. But it makes sense to elevate a scouting director sort of dude - it's a GM title, but really a GM with training wheels.

Edited August 22, 2015 by sk7326

[Elktonnick]

The question of how much autonomy and how much real input Cherrington had or did not have will be determined by what happens to Ben next. Dombrowski was "fired" in Detroit and was immediately hired in Boston. If another team hires Cherrington as the chief of baseball operations or some similar position then it would be reasonable to say that his former rivals valued his expertise and want them to work for them. If Ben languishes without another club bidding for his services then that also will tell us what the other teams really think of Ben capabilities. In my experience one peers and competitors usually are the best judge of one's talent.

[a700hitter]

The question of how much autonomy and how much real input Cherrington had or did not have will be determined by what happens to Ben next. Dombrowski was "fired" in Detroit and was immediately hired in Boston. If another team hires Cherrington as the chief of baseball operations or some similar position then it would be reasonable to say that his former rivals valued his expertise and want them to work for them. If Ben languishes without another club bidding for his services then that also will tell us what the other teams really think of Ben capabilities. In my experience one peers and competitors usually are the best judge of one's talent.

 

Yep, that will be the most accurate barometer.

[iortiz]

This still amazes me. As posted before he took over one of the worst teams in baseball. To trash a guy for getting a team like that to a constant playoff team in only 4 years is ridiculous.

 

Ben on the other hand took over a team that he already won 2 rings and turned them into last place teams 3 times in 4 years with moves like hiring Bobby Valentine. That clusterf*** of a team you are watching every night for the past 2 years is the team that Ben delivered to you. I have been a fan since '67 and the good thing about being a Red Sox fan was always the fact that they were competitive year after year. Old guys like me have never been through a stretch like this and he is to blame.

 

Every Red Sox fan understands that '13 was a fluke, Hell this board had the consensus early that year that the team was not talented enough to be a contender. But the big fly by Ortiz to tie Game 2 changed everything and Ben got credit for a ring that they really lucked into with many of the key players already on the team when he got here.

 

Very solid, accurate and realistic post.

[iortiz]

The GM only will help to make the diligences but the calls are going to be made by DD IMO. Just like in CHC.