Dombrowski in Cherington Out

[SoxnCycles]

GM choice will be key. The initial whispers of Frank Wren are profoundly troubling.

 

Now what Dombrowski did in Detroit and Miami are indicative that he can do it both ways. He stripped the Tiggers farm dry because the Little Caesar's guy told him to. The results were solid, but we see that they are behind the rebuild 8-ball.

 

The NY times piece on it was funny talking about how Dombrowski might shift things to a scouting driven approach instead of an analytics one. Since the Red Sox farm talent has been a non-issue, one would say that scouting has been quite good.

 

But Dombrowski is old, and so the GM choice is the more important one. If it's somebody promising, like a Jason McLeod or somebody from the Cardinals shop, that is one thing. If it is a warmed over mystery meat like Wren, that is another entirely.

 

Good post.

 

This is why I'm not exactly jumping for joy yet.

 

For the "It can't get any worse" crowd; yeah, it certainly can

[Behindenemylines]

New GM needs to be able to find pitching talent.

[a700hitter]

I will take 9 years of winning and a string of division championships. I don't care how he does it.

[RedSoxNC84]

Yeah, I don't get why some people think Koji was a nobody, until getting to Boston.

 

I know, I had actually wanted Koji in Boston for years

[RedSoxNC84]

I am not quite sure why ownership would let Ben hire Dipoto if they were going to hire Dombrowski unless they sought his approval in advance.

 

Maybe Ben stepping down wasn't his own choice after all.

[a700hitter]

Thanks for the 2013 Championship, Ben. Unfortunately, two consecutive losing seasons and the worst career performances from some players who were, up until this season, pretty good, basically makes you Adolsama Bin Hitler.

That is extremely unfair. Ben Cherington had integrity and he took accountability. He never misled anyone when talking about the moves which he was contemplating or the direction of the team. That is why when he said that he liked our pitching, I knew no moves were coming to add pitchers. People thought he was being coy and working the phones behind the scenes to get pitching. He was just being honest. When he recently said that Hanley would not be moved to another position this season, I also took him at his word. He is a decent honest man, but he is an incompetent. He is not Adolsama Bin Hitler.

[sk7326]

I will take 9 years of winning and a string of division championships. I don't care how he does it.

 

Moving Boston to the AL Central of the mid-2000s?

[a700hitter]

Maybe Ben stepping down wasn't his own choice after all.

In the words of Casey Stengel when he resigned as Yankee manager, "Heck, I did n't retire. I was fired."

[a700hitter]

Moving Boston to the AL Central of the mid-2000s?

So be it

[dupree]

Not only will a GM be brought in, but what about manager? How long will Farrell be out for treatment? Will DD want to put a whole new mindset in the dugout? What will the fallout be if he does move on from Farrell will the media backlash overshadow the offseason acquisitions and put more spotlight on him being heartless?

 

A lot of questions have just emerged with the signing of DD. The offseason just now got real interesting.

[SoxnCycles]

Not only will a GM be brought in, but what about manager? How long will Farrell be out for treatment? Will DD want to put a whole new mindset in the dugout? What will the fallout be if he does move on from Farrell will the media backlash overshadow the offseason acquisitions and put more spotlight on him being heartless?

 

A lot of questions have just emerged with the signing of DD. The offseason just now got real interesting.

 

Considering Henry made his money with statistical analysis, I don't see the Sox totally reverting to Dombrowski's "old school" philosophies.

Hopefully, it'll be a healthy blend of both.

 

I think Farrell's returning will depend on his health.

If the Sox FO thought the coaching staff was at fault, I think they would've been gone by now.

[sk7326]

Not only will a GM be brought in, but what about manager? How long will Farrell be out for treatment? Will DD want to put a whole new mindset in the dugout? What will the fallout be if he does move on from Farrell will the media backlash overshadow the offseason acquisitions and put more spotlight on him being heartless?

 

A lot of questions have just emerged with the signing of DD. The offseason just now got real interesting.

 

The fear will be exhuming Jim Leyland's corpse.

 

I also disagree that a lot of questions have been answered. A guy got hired. Who has say, what the front office will be like - all of that is very much open.

[a700hitter]

The fear will be exhuming Jim Leyland's corpse.

 

I also disagree that a lot of questions have been answered. A guy got hired. Who has say, what the front office will be like - all of that is very much open.

How much oversight that DD will be subject to is unknown. The problem that has been addressed is that upper management had lost confidence in Ben. Any strategy that he would have presented would likely have met with a lot of skepticism/resistance.

[iortiz]

New GM needs to be able to find pitching talent.

 

Once the FO is rebuilt, this is the second priority.

[Thunder]

The fear will be exhuming Jim Leyland's corpse.

 

This is the by far the stupidest thing I have read on these boards in a while. It makes absolutely no sense to me. What does Jim Leyland have to do with anything that Dombrowski's bringing with him?

[sk7326]

This is the by far the stupidest thing I have read on these boards in a while. It makes absolutely no sense to me. What does Jim Leyland have to do with anything that Dombrowski's bringing with him?

 

(he was a manager at Dombrowski's stops in Miami and Detroit)

[sk7326]

How much oversight that DD will be subject to is unknown. The problem that has been addressed is that upper management had lost confidence in Ben. Any strategy that he would have presented would likely have met with a lot of skepticism/resistance.

 

The problem that has been addressed is that Ben lost the confidence of the Nation and thus management axed him to alleviate that. That much is known. Now how much of that reflects internal concerns is a different matter. I am not doubting it probably had something to do with it. But Ben was the simplest scapegoat - regardless of the merits - and so the axe fell. Dombrowski at first blush smells a lot like the sort of "win the news cycle" signing that the Sandoval-Ramirez tag team was. After all, Cherington DID bring in DiPoto to do some self scouting and whatnot. And then he got axed a week later by the sexiest executive name out there. This does not have the aura of a decision made entirely on baseball merits.

 

I am not one to say that Cherington deserved to stay - although I think the answers are a lot more complex. He was one of the key front office pieces during the seminal decade of modern Red Sox history, and given the status of the Cubs rebuild - the Red Sox Way as it were did not suddenly get passe overnight. What is true is since 2011 the ownership/management has very much dithered in a very reactionary way to fan opinion on this stuff, instead of trusting what Lucchino, Epstein and the baseball ops had built. So what we're left with is a front office overhaul, but a very haphazard one - enough that I can't say thank god ... because this could end up quite bad.

[a700hitter]

The problem that has been addressed is that Ben lost the confidence of the Nation and thus management axed him to alleviate that..

You are a good poster, but this is nonsense. The "Nation" doesn't get a vote. I know this from my family's first hand experience as members of "Brooklyn Dodger Nation." He was fired for business reasons, not for PR. Edited August 19, 2015 by a700hitter

[Elktonnick]

IMHO Lucchino's departure and Dombrowski departure from Detroit and eventual hiring in Boston wasn't coincidental. When the season went south in the spring Henry began searching for options, that's what smart businessmen do. Lucchino was burnt out in Boston. He decides to either move on to focus on Pawtucket or was pushed, it doesn't make a difference. He was leaving. Henry probably had some inkling that Dombrowski's time in Detroit was coming to an end. Given their past association in Miami it was the logical outcome that Dombrowski would eventually end up in Boston.

[iortiz]

The problem that has been addressed is that Ben lost the confidence of the Nation and thus management axed him to alleviate that. That much is known. Now how much of that reflects internal concerns is a different matter. I am not doubting it probably had something to do with it. But Ben was the simplest scapegoat - regardless of the merits - and so the axe fell. Dombrowski at first blush smells a lot like the sort of "win the news cycle" signing that the Sandoval-Ramirez tag team was. After all, Cherington DID bring in DiPoto to do some self scouting and whatnot. And then he got axed a week later by the sexiest executive name out there. This does not have the aura of a decision made entirely on baseball merits.

 

I am not one to say that Cherington deserved to stay - although I think the answers are a lot more complex. He was one of the key front office pieces during the seminal decade of modern Red Sox history, and given the status of the Cubs rebuild - the Red Sox Way as it were did not suddenly get passe overnight. What is true is since 2011 the ownership/management has very much dithered in a very reactionary way to fan opinion on this stuff, instead of trusting what Lucchino, Epstein and the baseball ops had built. So what we're left with is a front office overhaul, but a very haphazard one - enough that I can't say thank god ... because this could end up quite bad.

Scapegoat? Really sk?

[a700hitter]

IMHO Lucchino's departure and Dombrowski departure from Detroit and eventual hiring in Boston wasn't coincidental. When the season went south in the spring Henry began searching for options, that's what smart businessmen do. Lucchino was burnt out in Boston. He decides to either move on to focus on Pawtucket or was pushed, it doesn't make a difference. He was leaving. Henry probably had some inkling that Dombrowski's time in Detroit was coming to an end. Given their past association in Miami it was the logical outcome that Dombrowski would eventually end up in Boston.

I agree.

[Kimmi]

I can agree that it was probably time for a fresh pair of eyes, but I thought that was what Dipoto was brought in for. Personally, I would have given Ben another year to clean up his mess. Despite the extreme lack of success the team has had the last 2 years, we did win a championship in 2013, and this team is set up for the long haul, with a good core of young players, and several more 2-3 years away. IMO, the team does not need an extreme makeover to be competitive next year.

[a700hitter]

I can agree that it was probably time for a fresh pair of eyes, but I thought that was what Dipoto was brought in for. Personally, I would have given Ben another year to clean up his mess. Despite the extreme lack of success the team has had the last 2 years, we did win a championship in 2013, and this team is set up for the long haul, with a good core of young players, and several more 2-3 years away. IMO, the team does not need an extreme makeover to be competitive next year.

Wasn't 2015 the year he was given to clean up his 2014 mess?

[Kimmi]

This will be interesting to see how this changes the approach to fix the pitching. Will Dombrowski be able to do things Ben Cher wasn't? DD has been known to use the farm system as a way to get the pieces his team needs. His approach has been so different then what we have seen the Sox do over the last half dozen years. Should be interesting. I will make this prediction, the Sox will have a true ace when they open 2016.

 

From Speier:

 

"Detroit built through free agency and trades while supplementing with homegrown players. The Sox had sought to accomplish the opposite. The lack of philosophical alignment, some industry sources speculated on Tuesday night, might explain the rationale for Cherington’s decision to decline the opportunity to serve as GM under Dombrowski."

 

The statement that I bolded and the one that I quoted from Speier's article are what concern me the most. Theo and Ben both operated under the same philosophy, which happens to be a spot on philosophy. That philosophy has made this team one of the most successful since this ownerhip took over. Why change something that is proven to work, and go in what seems to be the exact opposite direction?

 

Signing guys to big free agent contracts and trading away the farm might help us in the immediate future, but the long term outlook will suffer.

[a700hitter]

From Speier:

 

 

 

The statement that I bolded and the one that I quoted from Speier's article are what concern me the most. Theo and Ben both operated under the same philosophy, which happens to be a spot on philosophy. That philosophy has made this team one of the most successful since this ownerhip took over. Why change something that is proven to work, and go in what seems to be the exact opposite direction?

 

Signing guys to big free agent contracts and trading away the farm might help us in the immediate future, but the long term outlook will suffer.

When the philosophy took full hold it stopped working in recent years as demonstrated by 3 last place finishes in 4 years. That is not success. That is unprecedented failure not seen since the pre-Yawkey years.

[SoxnCycles]

From Speier:

 

 

 

The statement that I bolded and the one that I quoted from Speier's article are what concern me the most. Theo and Ben both operated under the same philosophy, which happens to be a spot on philosophy. That philosophy has made this team one of the most successful since this ownerhip took over. Why change something that is proven to work, and go in what seems to be the exact opposite direction?

 

Signing guys to big free agent contracts and trading away the farm might help us in the immediate future, but the long term outlook will suffer.

 

Most fans can't grasp "long term".

They want to win (unless it's a fluke) and they want to win yesterday.

 

If the Sox don't have a winning record by the end of Sept, the overhaul will be a failure.

[Kimmi]

Reasons for concern about Dombrowski, and what appears to be a 180 turn from the Red Sox philosophy:

 

1. Large contracts given to free agents.

2. Trading away the farm.

3. Does not really value analytics.

4. Does not see the importance of defense.

 

I'm sure there are other reasons, but what I've listed is enough.

 

I'm willing to give Dombrowski a chance. He has not done anything yet, good or bad, so I will keep an open mind. I will say, however, that my initial reaction is not a warm, fuzzy one, but rather one of deep concern. I certainly hope this is not a panic move to the other extreme that will end up backfiring, much like the Bobby Valentine move.

[sk7326]

Scapegoat? Really sk?

 

Ben was the simplest scapegoat ... I did not say he did not make mistakes. I am saying that ushering him out is the easiest way for them to publicly address the season.

[sk7326]

You are a good poster, but this is nonsense. The "Nation" doesn't get a vote. I know this from my family's first hand experience as members of "Brooklyn Dodger Nation." He was fired for business reasons, not for PR.

 

Of course they do - from the eyeballs on NESN to the calls to various chat shows. PR is a business reason btw.

[a700hitter]

Reasons for concern about Dombrowski, and what appears to be a 180 turn from the Red Sox philosophy:

 

1. Large contracts given to free agents.

2. Trading away the farm.

3. Does not really value analytics.

4. Does not see the importance of defense.

 

I'm sure there are other reasons, but what I've listed is enough.

 

I'm willing to give Dombrowski a chance. He has not done anything yet, good or bad, so I will keep an open mind. I will say, however, that my initial reaction is not a warm, fuzzy one, but rather one of deep concern. I certainly hope this is not a panic move to the other extreme that will end up backfiring, much like the Bobby Valentine move.

It certainly reads like you have an open mind without any biases regarding this move.