A Realistic View of 2024: Part II

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Fans are entitled, and not just Red Sox fans. All sports fans who devote their time following, watching, rooting -- and especially, paying money -- for and on their favorite team should be able to expect or at least anticipate experiencing a quality product of entertainment.

 

No one ever mocks movie viewers or music fans for complaining about a bad film or offkey concert by artists who were once great. If they didn't get their money's worth, they deserve to be disappointed.

[mvp 78]

You do realize that once Dombrowski gave up trying to extend Betts, he instead spent heavily on Sale and Bogaerts. Those two are the Mookie Compensation. Yoshida was 3 years after Mookie was dealt away…

 

Bad trade off IMO.

[Bellhorn04]

Bad trade off IMO.

 

Henry balked at paying Mookie market value because it was a big number. To me that's all there really is to that story. Obviously the money they didn't pay him goes somewhere else.

[notin]

Bad trade off IMO.

 

Agreed.

 

But the notion that Bloom traded Betts in order to sign Story and Yoshida is an oversimplified rewrite of history with the agenda of disconnecting Dombrowski from Betts’ departure…

[Bellhorn04]

Agreed.

 

But the notion that Bloom traded Betts in order to sign Story and Yoshida is an oversimplified rewrite of history with the agenda of disconnecting Dombrowski from Betts’ departure…

 

Don't put everyone in the same basket. I don't blame Bloom and I don't blame Dombrowski. I blame JH.

[mvp 78]

Henry balked at paying Mookie market value because it was a big number. To me that's all there really is to that story. Obviously the money they didn't pay him goes somewhere else.

 

Ok?

[mvp 78]

Agreed.

 

But the notion that Bloom traded Betts in order to sign Story and Yoshida is an oversimplified rewrite of history with the agenda of disconnecting Dombrowski from Betts’ departure…

 

He traded Betts because they weren’t going to re-sign him. His production replaced by worse players and the team has been worse off for it.

[mvp 78]

Don't put everyone in the same basket. I don't blame Bloom and I don't blame Dombrowski. I blame JH.

 

Ownership is at fault 100% for Mookie and the current direction.

[Bellhorn04]

Ok?

 

It's a stand-alone story for me. It's not about the luxury tax or about the other guys they had to pay or where the team was situated for the future. I think that's all irrelevant to how much JH was willing to pay Mookie.

[notin]

Only because of Mookie's contract being longer.

 

Huh?

 

 

Math. Try it…

[Hugh2]

Wait, I think I see the point of some people now.

 

When the Sox are negotiating with free agents they should start asking them the question

 

“Hey, are you going to get hurt?” “How many injuries and years do you plan on missing over the next 7 years”?

 

The fact that they don’t ask this is mind boggling.

 

As a matter a of fact, they really need to start asking guys how many RBIs they plan on having, and how many runs they plan on giving up.

 

I can’t believe they don’t do this now.

[Duran Is The Man]

Don't put everyone in the same basket. I don't blame Bloom and I don't blame Dombrowski. I blame JH.

 

Me too, but I blame Bloom for signing s***** players to replace him.

[Bellhorn04]

Wait, I think I see the point of some people now.

 

When the Sox are negotiating with free agents they should start asking them the question

 

“Hey, are you going to get hurt?” “How many injuries and years do you plan on missing over the next 7 years”?

 

The fact that they don’t ask this is mind boggling.

 

As a matter a of fact, they really need to start asking guys how many RBIs they plan on having, and how many runs they plan on giving up.

 

I can’t believe they don’t do this now.

 

The question I guess is whether some signings and extensions have red flags all over them.

 

Sale had an injury red flag.

Story had somewhat of an injury red flag.

Yoshida had a 'nobody else thinks he's worth anywhere near that much' red flag.

[Bellhorn04]

Me too, but I blame Bloom for signing s***** players to replace him.

 

And I blame JH for hiring Bloom. It was all part of his big shift in thinking.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The question I guess is whether some signings and extensions have red flags all over them.

 

Sale had an injury red flag.

Story had somewhat of an injury red flag.

Yoshida had a 'nobody else thinks he's worth anywhere near that much' red flag.

 

Bloom and Breslow had the never-been-in-charge-before-so-will-do-whatever-they're-told green flags.

 

This question persists: how can all the longtime Asst. VPs in the front office through all these sustained f***-ups not having the owners seeing red?

[Randy Red Sox]

Henry balked at paying Mookie market value because it was a big number. To me that's all there really is to that story. Obviously the money they didn't pay him goes somewhere else.

 

in Henry's pocket.

[Randy Red Sox]

Don't put everyone in the same basket. I don't blame Bloom and I don't blame Dombrowski. I blame JH.

 

This team went downhill the day Dombrowski left.

[Hugh2]

The question I guess is whether some signings and extensions have red flags all over them.

 

Sale had an injury red flag.

Story had somewhat of an injury red flag.

Yoshida had a 'nobody else thinks he's worth anywhere near that much' red flag.

 

By that unit of measure, who doesn’t have some kind of red flag? They say that it’s expected that every pitcher is going to have TJS at some point the way guys pitch. Some get hurt, recover and don’t skip a beat, others turn into an injury machine and suffer set back after set back after set back (Sale Story are good examples).

 

Did Albert Pujols have Red flags? He never lived up to his contract and effectively went from a perennial 1.000 ops guy to a .750 ops guy.

 

I think the Sox decision making is easily worthy of criticism, but you can’t predict many or not most injuries. Guys get hurt, and the older they are, the more likely they’re to get hurt or see a decline of production. This is why most free agents never live up to the height. This is why I think it’s more fruitful to criticize the Sox inability to develop and lock up young talent rather than criticize free agent signings. They’ve had plenty of guys live up to the money too

[Maxbialystock]

This team went downhill the day Dombrowski left.

 

Correction. This team went downhill before Dombrowski left. DD owns the 2019 season, which, coming after 108 regular season wins and a brilliant (11-3) postseason in 2018, was a semi-disaster. The Sox didn't even make the playoffs despite the biggest payroll in MLB. Basically, the Sox pitching collapsed.

 

Despite already having the biggest payroll in MLB, it's a good bet DD would want at least another $60M/year to keep Mookie and bring in some good and expensive arms to replace Sale and Price in 2020 and beyond.

Edited April 20, 2024 by Maxbialystock

[Bellhorn04]

Correction. This team went downhill before Dombrowski left. DD owns the 2019 season, which, coming after 108 regular season wins and a brilliant (11-3) postseason in 2018, was a semi-disaster. The Sox didn't even make the playoffs despite the biggest payroll in MLB. Basically, the Sox pitching collapsed.

 

Since the Sox payroll in 2019 was the highest in MLB already, it's a good bet DD would want at least another $50M/year to keep Mookie and bring in some good and expensive arms to replace Sale and Price in 2020 and beyond.

 

The 2019 season was not any kind of disaster IMHO. They won 84 games, the same number as the defending NL champs Arizona. They had a run differential of +73. They scored more runs than the 2018 team did. Obviously they had a lot of banged-up pitchers and that did them in.

 

But also, 2019 came after a championship and 3 division titles in a row. It's hard to keep a run like that going.

 

No team has won back to back WS's since the year 2000.

[Maxbialystock]

Fans are entitled, and not just Red Sox fans. All sports fans who devote their time following, watching, rooting -- and especially, paying money -- for and on their favorite team should be able to expect or at least anticipate experiencing a quality product of entertainment.

 

No one ever mocks movie viewers or music fans for complaining about a bad film or offkey concert by artists who were once great. If they didn't get their money's worth, they deserve to be disappointed.

 

Boy, do you have that wrong. Yes, certainly, there have been some costly stinkers by the movie industry, but it is somewhat self-correcting. Producers, directors, and even actors involved in costly stinkers don't get offered as many movies/paychecks as before. They even have a phrase for it, "box office poison."

 

The corrective in MLB is that owners can change and CBO's and managers and even coaches can be fired. But the biggest costs, the players, keep getting paid IAW their contracts, some of which are beyond the dreams of avarice.

 

I've been a Sox fan since 1949, but I've only actually been to Fenway Park twice. Terrible seats, both times--and expensive, of course. Never going back.

 

Once Red Sox baseball became available on cable and/or the internet--over 20 years ago--I signed up every year to watch all the Sox games. At a very reasonable price--even though those stupid blackout restrictions keep me from watching the Sox any time they play the Nationals, Orioles, or Braves. So, even in a down season, I can't complain too much.

 

The fans who go to the games, however, get screwed. The price of my online season ticket is what they pay for every single game they watch in person.

 

And of course the media encourage gargantuan player contracts because they are grist for the mill--a good story. They always say, "the owners are rich. They can afford it." But they are dead wrong! The owners almost always pass the increased player costs onto the fans.

[Maxbialystock]

The 2019 season was not any kind of disaster IMHO. They won 84 games, the same number as the defending NL champs Arizona. They had a run differential of +73. They scored more runs than the 2018 team did. Obviously they had a lot of banged-up pitchers and that did them in.

 

But also, 2019 came after a championship and 3 division titles in a row. It's hard to keep a run like that going.

 

No team has won back to back WS's since the year 2000.

 

Well stated.

 

Given that, allow me to say that the 2021 season, which included 92 wins and getting to the ALCS--which neither the 2016 nor the 2017 pricey teams came close to doing--was a wild success. Brilliant work by both Chaim Bloom and Alex Cora.

 

And even the 2022 and 2023 teams, both with 78 wins, weren't really that much worse than the very expensive 2019 team with its 84 wins.

 

And right now, April 20, 2024, we should be deliriously happy because the Sox are 11-10 and--wait for it--headed for a hugely successful season of 85 freaking wins. That's what 11-10 translates to over 162 games.

 

The 2024 Sox are doing it with a ton of guys on the IL--plus still paying for Chris Sale and Turner who are playing for other teams.

[moonslav59]

Henry balked at paying Mookie market value because it was a big number. To me that's all there really is to that story. Obviously the money they didn't pay him goes somewhere else.

 

We can't totally chalk it up to JH being in a stingy mood, that winter. While he did fail to pay for Kimbrel & Kelly or any like replacements, he increased the budget from 2018 to 2019, extended Sale & Bogey and re-signed Nate.

 

We just put our resources in the wrong places, IMO, although those other 3 we did sign looked deserving. (I know, many felt Sale was not.)

[moonslav59]

Me too, but I blame Bloom for signing s***** players to replace him.

 

Like Bogey & Nate?

[moonslav59]

Me too, but I blame Bloom for signing s***** players to replace him.

 

I said the same before 2013, when we "replaced" AGon & Beckett (plus Crawford's cost) with Dempster, Napoli, S Drew and Vic.

[moonslav59]

Correction. This team went downhill before Dombrowski left. DD owns the 2019 season, which, coming after 108 regular season wins and a brilliant (11-3) postseason in 2018, was a semi-disaster. The Sox didn't even make the playoffs despite the biggest payroll in MLB. Basically, the Sox pitching collapsed.

 

Despite already having the biggest payroll in MLB, it's a good bet DD would want at least another $60M/year to keep Mookie and bring in some good and expensive arms to replace Sale and Price in 2020 and beyond.

 

How would DD have done better in 2020, with that budget and no ERod or Sale?

 

DD is not really known for finding bargain basement players who over perform.

 

(This is no slight on DD. I loved having him as our GM, and have no regrets, despite the negative effect his reign had on following seasons. It was well worth it.)

[moonslav59]

This team went downhill the day Dombrowski left.

 

It didn't go downhill in 2019?

[Randy Red Sox]

Correction. This team went downhill before Dombrowski left. DD owns the 2019 season, which, coming after 108 regular season wins and a brilliant (11-3) postseason in 2018, was a semi-disaster. The Sox didn't even make the playoffs despite the biggest payroll in MLB. Basically, the Sox pitching collapsed.

 

Despite already having the biggest payroll in MLB, it's a good bet DD would want at least another $60M/year to keep Mookie and bring in some good and expensive arms to replace Sale and Price in 2020 and beyond.

 

I stand by my position on DD. JH knew exactly what he was getting when he brought DD in and that was to win a WS which he did. He was not brought in to penny pinch like his 2 replacements have been. Yes DD spends but he is a WINNER. The man has had contending teams everywhere he has been and brought in many of the young talent this team currently has.

[Randy Red Sox]

It didn't go downhill in 2019?

 

not near where it is right now.

[Maxbialystock]

I stand by my position on DD. JH knew exactly what he was getting when he brought DD in and that was to win a WS which he did. He was not brought in to penny pinch like his 2 replacements have been. Yes DD spends but he is a WINNER. The man has had contending teams everywhere he has been and brought in many of the young talent this team currently has.

 

I do think you can make a good case for DD, but would remind you of one simple fact.

 

What he buys for his owners, the fans pay for--not the great mass of us who watch games online or cable or TV or whatever--but the fans who go to the games, where the ticket prices go up and up and up. Want a hot dog? $20 (if not now, soon).

 

Also, as I just pointed out, these current, worthless, no good, rotten, stinking Sox, with a reduced payroll (now ranked 11th in MLB), much of which is on the IL or otherwise unavailable, is 11-10. Seems mediocre, but guess what? If you project it out to 162 games, the Sox win 85, which is one more than the 2019 Sox won with the highest payroll in MLB.