Chris Sale traded to Braves

[Bellhorn04]

I probably should have added Jeffrey Springs to the list, now that he's healthy again.

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

OK, agreed, but it was still a dumb trade.  Bill Lee for Stan Papi is part of Red Sox lore.  You're trying to mess up a perfectly good superstitious/downer narrative.  I was pretty high when I posted that, admittedly. 

Well that's clearly why you added the Spaceman to that list. Great pitcher and I love the documentary where he went to pitch in Cuba. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Bill Lee is still pitching, at age 77.

Rich Hill is a hero for staying MLB-ready throwing BP to Little Leaguers, but Lee has never stopped facing kids masquerading as adults.

If Hill can step in and lob a 72 mph curveball off a bat that goes 370 feet, then Spaceman can, too.

[Hugh2]

18 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Theo said he's spending time to work with the other entities more so than the Red Sox.

I meant my son Theo.  He's very dissapointed in John Henry

[moonslav59]

It was a bad trade, but Bill Lee only has that one good season, after the trade.

That whole period was mind-boggling.

The worst thing was sending out Fisk's contract offer a day late, making him a free agent and getting nothing for losing him, but the systematic dismantling of the mid to late 70's team hurt this fan's baseball psyche.

To me, it began with the Bernie Carbo trade, then the Cecil Cooper trade that brought Bernie back, along with over-the- hill George Scott.

Nov '78: Tiant signs with Yankees.

Dec '80: Burleson & Hobson for Lansford, Clear and Miller

Jan '81: Lynn & Renko for Tanana, Rudi and Dorsey

Mar '81: Fisk signs with CWS

That winter of '80-'81 was shocking: we lost Fisk, Lynn, Burleson & Hobson

While losing Betts sucked, bigtime, that winter was worse, despite getting some good player in return. The heart and soul of that team was ripped out.

(I probably missed a few players.)

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, this franchise sure has made some awful trades.  

Duquette, Epstein and Dombrowski mostly made good trades, so they should be lauded for that.

 

[Duran Is The Man]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Chris is absolutely rubbing the Sox front office's faces in it.

16-3, 2.46.    

i think it's hilarious. the f***ing morons in Henry's FO got exactly what they deserved. 

[notin]

2 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Yes, this franchise sure has made some awful trades.  

Duquette, Epstein and Dombrowski mostly made good trades, so they should be lauded for that.

 

Obviously the Sale trade is a massive flop, but I can’t fault Breslow.  Sale gave the Sox next to nothing for four years, and really, raised questions even back in 2019.  That they dealt him and tried to improve the team (rather than paying nothing and just dumping salary) was an understandable move.

But apparently Breslow just isn’t psychic enough for this role…

 

[Bellhorn04]

7 minutes ago, notin said:

Obviously the Sale trade is a massive flop, but I can’t fault Breslow.  Sale gave the Sox next to nothing for four years, and really, raised questions even back in 2019.  That they dealt him and tried to improve the team (rather than paying nothing and just dumping salary) was an understandable move.

But apparently Breslow just isn’t psychic enough for this role…

 

Hey, now we know past injuries don't always predict future ones, so it was a great learning experience...

[moonslav59]

5 minutes ago, notin said:

Obviously the Sale trade is a massive flop, but I can’t fault Breslow.  Sale gave the Sox next to nothing for four years, and really, raised questions even back in 2019.  That they dealt him and tried to improve the team (rather than paying nothing and just dumping salary) was an understandable move.

But apparently Breslow just isn’t psychic enough for this role…

 

Had we traded Sale in 2019, even for someone who did not work out, we'd have rejoiced for years and years, and maybe watching him have a great year in year 5 of his contract, we'd have not been as upset, IMO.

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, moonslav59 said:

Had we traded Sale in 2019, even for someone who did not work out, we'd have rejoiced for years and years, and maybe watching him have a great year in year 5 of his contract, we'd have not been as upset, IMO.

Fun with hindsight hypotheticals. 

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Hey, now we know past injuries don't always predict future ones, so it was a great learning experience...

From Frail Sale in Boston to Chris Cy Young Sale in Atlanta. As Castig would ask can you believe it?

[moonslav59]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Fun with hindsight hypotheticals. 

Am I wrong?

This whole idea is why we traded Sale. We obviously thought counting on him to come through after 4 let- downs was the wrong choice.

[Bellhorn04]

45 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Am I wrong?

This whole idea is why we traded Sale. We obviously thought counting on him to come through after 4 let- downs was the wrong choice.

Well, that seems like the most obvious explanation.  But we have no idea how much Henry's budget limitations had to do with it, do we?

And then we have the question of why Atlanta thought it was worth a shot if the Sox didn't.  But that's just more going around the mulberry bush.

[moonslav59]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

Well, that seems like the most obvious explanation.  But we have no idea how much Henry's budget had to do with it.

And then we have the question of why Atlanta thought it was worth a shot if the Sox didn't.  But that's just more going around the mulberry bush.

I think ATL felt giving up Grissom did not hurt them at all, even if he turned out to be really good or even great. If Sale did not do all that well, they were better prepared for that than we were, as well.

It's not like anyone felt Sale did not have the skills, anymore. Maybe many felt there was no way he be "this good," again, at this age, but he still showed skills. That's what ATL saw. It's not like we didn't see it, as well, but our focus was on finding an innings eater or limiting those on our staff who rated to not give us many.

We have already discussed how watching Houck and Crawford blow past their career high in IP was risky and largely an unknown, but keeping them over Sale had obvious pluses, too.

[Bellhorn04]

11 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I think ATL felt giving up Grissom did not hurt them at all, even if he turned out to be really good or even great. If Sale did not do all that well, they were better prepared for that than we were, as well.

It's not like anyone felt Sale did not have the skills, anymore. Maybe many felt there was no way he be "this good," again, at this age, but he still showed skills. That's what ATL saw. It's not like we didn't see it, as well, but our focus was on finding an innings eater or limiting those on our staff who rated to not give us many.

We have already discussed how watching Houck and Crawford blow past their career high in IP was risky and largely an unknown, but keeping them over Sale had obvious pluses, too.

moon, if they were really trying to be competitive this year, they could have:

a) Kept Sale and hoped for the best.  

b) Signed Giolito.

c) Obtained a second baseman some other way.  (What they really needed was a good fielder, and Grissom is not that.) 

I get all the reasons that have been presented for the trade.  I just find there are holes in all of them.  

I'm more and more convinced the trade was mainly a result of the tight budget and the lack of actually caring about winning this year.

 

[Bellhorn04]

And the tight budget and lack of caring were further manifested when Giolito was lost and they did nothing about it.

It all fits into the same gloomy picture.

[mvp 78]

20 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Well, that seems like the most obvious explanation.  But we have no idea how much Henry's budget limitations had to do with it, do we?

And then we have the question of why Atlanta thought it was worth a shot if the Sox didn't.  But that's just more going around the mulberry bush.

IMO, Atlanta was closer to a real playoff push and it was worth it to roll the dice on Sale's upside than for the Sox. ATL also had some injuries in the rotation needed Sale's arm. ATL were also able to maneuver their rotation enough to allow Sale to have an additional day of rest for almost every start this season.

Sox were still in more of a bridge phase and Sale may not put them over the top. 

Both teams may end up missing the playoffs this year though. 

[mvp 78]

3 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I'm more and more convinced the trade was mainly a result of the tight budget and the lack of actually caring about winning this year.

 

That was almost certain from the moment the trade was agreed upon. 

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

That was almost certain from the moment the trade was agreed upon. 

OK, we're 100% in agreement on those points.

[Bellhorn04]

And their lack of caring is being rewarded exactly the way it deserves to be.  

[notin]

4 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I probably should have added Jeffrey Springs to the list, now that he's healthy again.

No love for Herb Pennock?

[notin]

24 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

moon, if they were really trying to be competitive this year, they could have:

a) Kept Sale and hoped for the best.  

b) Signed Giolito.

c) Obtained a second baseman some other way.  (What they really needed was a good fielder, and Grissom is not that.) 

I get all the reasons that have been presented for the trade.  I just find there are holes in all of them.  

I'm more and more convinced the trade was mainly a result of the tight budget and the lack of actually caring about winning this year.

 

If the trade was solely about the budget, wouldn’t they have taken some AAAA type like Jake McSteen and paid less than $17mill?

I’d be surprised if the biggest factor wasn’t simply Sale being $27mill of contractual deadweight that was always unable to pitch…

[moonslav59]

11 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

moon, if they were really trying to be competitive this year, they could have:

a) Kept Sale and hoped for the best.  

b) Signed Giolito.

c) Obtained a second baseman some other way.  (What they really needed was a good fielder, and Grissom is not that.) 

I get all the reasons that have been presented for the trade.  I just find there are holes in all of them.  

I'm more and more convinced the trade was mainly a result of the tight budget and the lack of actually caring about winning this year.

 

Of course, and I fully agree that this was all about the plan to cut $10M from the 2023 budget. People look at what they paid Gio and that we paid $17M to ATL for Sale and think this wasn't about cutting salary.

Had JH okay'd just $10M more, perhaps Brez decides to keep Sale. (maybe not.)

I totally agree with your points, but isn't this also fun with hindsight hypotheticals?

As long as JH decided we cut the budget, Brez had to work within those parameters. Yes, there were "holes" or risks involved with the chocies made.

Gio could have sucked or got hurt. Sale could do well and pitch many innings. Grissom could suck. All three came true, but none were known, at the time. That's all I'm saying. I wasn't a big fan of the trade, and actually disliked it, at first. When we signed Gio, it made more sense, but I did not expect that to be the end of adding to the rotation. It was criminal to neglect the rotation, after we knew Gio was out for the year. We agree on all this.

We ended up cutting...

$11M Turner 

$10M Sale

$10M kluber

$10M Kike (some paid by LAD)

$6M  Dugo ($9M 2024 arb cost)

$4M Paxton

We added: $19M Gio, $6M O'Neill and bits at the deadline.

This is the bottom line for this whole mess, along with the fact that, in hindsight, all 3 aspects of the trade came up as bad as could possibly be. I don't have a big issue with judging GMs on hindsight, but I can never agree with anyone who says, within all this context, that the "trade made no sense." That's not to say, we should have expected it to work our well, but I don't think anyone expected every part to go horribly wrong, like this.

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Hey, now we know past injuries don't always predict future ones, so it was a great learning experience...

Especially shoulder and elbow injuries on pitchers!

Also that would justify putting Whitlock into the rotation again next year!! One less starter needed!

[notin]

5 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I probably should have added Jeffrey Springs to the list, now that he's healthy again.

Also you left out the most famous LHP the club sold to the Yankees.

I don’t know about you, but I never heard of anyone talk about The Curse of Bob Ojeda…

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Well, that seems like the most obvious explanation.  But we have no idea how much Henry's budget limitations had to do with it, do we?

And then we have the question of why Atlanta thought it was worth a shot if the Sox didn't.  But that's just more going around the mulberry bush.

So if Sale had made 80-100 starts in the past 4 years, do you think the Sox still trade him to save money?

Also why wouldn’t Atlanta do this deal? They get a once-elite pitcher for $10mill -which is the going rate for pitchers recovering from TJ - and they only give up a prospect who has nothing left to prove in the minors and nowhere to play on their roster.

The Red Sox paid Paxton $10mill knowing he was going to miss at least one full season.  Sale missing time, while it wouldn’t have been surprising, was far from a guarantee at that point…

 

[mvp 78]

 

56 minutes ago, notin said:

Also you left out the most famous LHP the club sold to the Yankees.

I don’t know about you, but I never heard of anyone talk about The Curse of Bob Ojeda…

 Sparky Lyle? 

[notin]

37 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

 

 Sparky Lyle? 

Obviously!

[Bellhorn04]

17 hours ago, notin said:

If the trade was solely about the budget, wouldn’t they have taken some AAAA type like Jake McSteen and paid less than $17mill?

I’d be surprised if the biggest factor wasn’t simply Sale being $27mill of contractual deadweight that was always unable to pitch…

Hugh thinks the trade was 100% about the budget.

mvp thinks the trade was about the budget and the fact they didn't really intend to compete this year.

So I'm certainly not alone in my beliefs.