Chris Sale traded to Braves

[moonslav59]

55 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Well written, able defense of Breslow.  I would add one other item:  it was his first year in a job a whole bunch of other potential CBO's probably turned down because of the uncertainty of where JH wants to take the Sox.  

On the other hand, Breslow also seems to be in the mold of his predecessors in not being able to make big moves on pitchers that work out.  Even DD had to leave because in 2019 because two very pricey starters, Price and Sale, were struggling--and continued to in subsequent seasons while being paid enormous sums of money.  

Bottom line:  Breslow is probably the best available CBO for the Sox.  He's smart, and he knows pitching after having been one for 12 seasons in MLB.  I'm guessing he and Cora are in sync.  

I do see a difference: Bloom could not bring himself to make the big trade. Like the deal or not, Brez tried to make a deal that was major. On being in "the mold," he missed on Gio, due to an injury to a guy with no injury history. That was not Bloom's "mold." Bloom's "mold" was to sign injury prone pitchers and pray they recover and do well. His indecision at the deadlines and winter was paralyzing and a major reason he was let go. Brez made some bad that failed, but he tried. I don't see the similarity, except Brez has not had success with his choices, so far. Bloom messed up, year after year.

[notin]

2 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I do see a difference: Bloom could not bring himself to make the big trade. Like the deal or not, Brez tried to make a deal that was major. On being in "the mold," he missed on Gio, due to an injury to a guy with no injury history. That was not Bloom's "mold." Bloom's "mold" was to sign injury prone pitchers and pray they recover and do well. His indecision at the deadlines and winter was paralyzing and a major reason he was let go. Brez made some bad that failed, but he tried. I don't see the similarity, except Brez has not had success with his choices, so far. Bloom messed up, year after year.

I prefer a GM who tries and makes bad moves to one who just can’t pull any triggers ever.

Breslow just been snakebit.  He trades a 35yo pitcher who hasn’t been himself since he was 30, and the guy morphs in Sandy Koufax.  He signs an innings eater who absolutely shows up and never misses a start, and the guy tears a ligament.  He trades for two relievers who have done solid work for several years, and both flop, especially Garcia, who in every appearance gets hammered like a sorority girl on Jell-O shot night.

But at least he doesn’t drag home a steaming pile of Eric Hosmer and try to tell me how lucky we are to have it…

[moonslav59]

I will say the Garrett Cooper addition rivaled the steaming pile of Hosmer. Then, somebody doused Dom Smith with some AXE Deodorant. 

It's interesting to note that these guys still lead the team in PAs at...

1B: Dom Smith 247 (Casas 140, Dalbec 48, Romy 37, Cooper 32)

2B: E Valdez 175 (DHam 118, Grissom 83, Westbrook 39, Sogard 38, Romy 32, Reyes 16)

 

[notin]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

I will say the Garrett Cooper addition rivaled the steaming pile of Hosmer. Then, somebody doused Dom Smith with some AXE Deodorant. 

It's interesting to note that these guys still lead the team in PAs at...

1B: Dom Smith 247 (Casas 140, Dalbec 48, Romy 37, Cooper 32)

2B: E Valdez 175 (DHam 118, Grissom 83, Westbrook 39, Sogard 38, Romy 32, Reyes 16)

 

Except that Cooper was pulled off the waiver wire, whereas Hosmer was the Big Name acquisition at the trade deadline.  
 

And Cooper, a role player by trade, was a good player who struggled for 75 PA in Boston. Hosmer was a multimillion dollar player touted as one who “fell right into [Bloom’s] lap” as the big high profile acquisition set to salvage the 2022 season.  All this despite the fact that Hosmer has sucked since 2017…

[moonslav59]

I never viewed Hosmer as the big get, but they did talk him up.

Pham was bigger and I liked the Abreu/Valdez trade most.

 

[notin]

16 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I never viewed Hosmer as the big get, but they did talk him up.

Pham was bigger and I liked the Abreu/Valdez trade most.

 

Bloom didn’t do a press briefing on scoring Abreu or Pham.  He talked plenty about Hosmer…

[moonslav59]

2 minutes ago, notin said:

Bloom didn’t do a press briefing on scoring Abreu or Pham.  He talked plenty about Hosmer…

I'm only talking about how I viewed the trades. Also, I actually liked Max Fergusen more than Hosmer, in that trade.

We needed a 1Bman from May on, that year. I think that was why he "talked up" Hosmer.

I don't think a single person here fell for it.

[moonslav59]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

No love for Tommy Pham or Reese McGuire? 😉

I was shocked we got anybody to take Diekman off our hands with no cash involved. Getting McGuire, who actually played very well for us, that year, was the best move for that year.

The deal that got the most criticism was the best one: Vas for Abreu & EValdez.

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

I was shocked we got anybody to take Diekman off our hands with no cash involved. Getting McGuire, who actually played very well for us, that year, was the best move for that year.

The deal that got the most criticism was the best one: Vas for Abreu & EValdez.

Don't quote me so fast, man!  I deleted that post when I saw Pham was already mentioned LOL

It's my recollection that most of the criticism about the Vaz trade was the PR part - how he found out about it. 

 

[moonslav59]

31 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Don't quote me so fast, man!  I deleted that post when I saw Pham was already mentioned LOL

It's my recollection that most of the criticism about the Vaz trade was the PR part - how he found out about it. 

 

Yes, that was a big part of the Vaz trade criticism, but some were pissed that it sent a message to the team, we were punting, despite taking two forks, at once. It was mostly the "must win now" crowd.

All-in-all, McGuire and Pham did okay to good, and Abreu was a great get. EValdez may someday be a decent MLB hitter, but a platoon DH does not have much of a future. The year Bloom traded for Schwarber and added Robles, Davis, Iggy and Shaw was a very good mid season job. IMO, Bloom did not do enough in the mid-season, either buying or selling, but he did fine in 2020 (Pivetta), 2021 (Schwarber, Robles, Iggy & Shaw,) okay in '22 (Abreu) and nothing in '23. Brez has had a terrible deadline record in his one try (Jansen being the only good move.) He did okay getting Dom Smith, mid season.

[Old Red]

11 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Yes, that was a big part of the Vaz trade criticism, but some were pissed that it sent a message to the team, we were punting, despite taking two forks, at once. It was mostly the "must win now" crowd.

All-in-all, McGuire and Pham did okay to good, and Abreu was a great get. EValdez may someday be a decent MLB hitter, but a platoon DH does not have much of a future. The year Bloom traded for Schwarber and added Robles, Davis, Iggy and Shaw was a very good mid season job. IMO, Bloom did not do enough in the mid-season, either buying or selling, but he did fine in 2020 (Pivetta), 2021 (Schwarber, Robles, Iggy & Shaw,) okay in '22 (Abreu) and nothing in '23. Brez has had a terrible deadline record in his one try (Jansen being the only good move.) He did okay getting Dom Smith, mid season.

Yes it was mostly the must win now crowd, Most importantly the players in the Red Sox clubhouse.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

41 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Yes it was mostly the must win now crowd, Most importantly the players in the Red Sox clubhouse.

WHO exactly are these fans who want their team to improve every summer so they have a chance THAT YEAR to make the playoffs?!?!?

The horrors... (don't they all sniff napalm in the morning)

[Bellhorn04]

Hosmer really was the poster boy for Red's Third Fork in the Road LOL...

[Randy Red Sox]

On 8/29/2024 at 6:43 AM, moonslav59 said:

I agree. Our SS defense has been lacking for a decade. Our 2B D has been awful, too, since maybe Pedey's healthy years.

The offense has been pretty bad, too.

.669 OPS at 2B since 2018.

.813 at SS since 2018, thanks to Bogey, but .690 from 2023-2024.

This is the major reason I hesitate on trading Mayer over Anthony or Teel.

believe it or not the Sox have more errors than even the CWS

[Bellhorn04]

4 minutes ago, Randy Red Sox said:

believe it or not the Sox have more errors than even the CWS

Way more in fact.  We're blowing everyone away. 

[notin]

51 minutes ago, Randy Red Sox said:

believe it or not the Sox have more errors than even the CWS

And yet the Bosox have still given up 60 fewer runs.

[moonslav59]

6 minutes ago, notin said:

And yet the Bosox have still given up 60 fewer runs.

Yup. While some want to minimize the defensive aspect of runs allowed, here is something to ponder:

 

Our staff is...

10th in xFIP at 4.03- just 0.01 from HOU and 0.03 from STL.

13th in ERA- at 96- just 1 behind CLE and 2 behind 4 teams for 8th place.

(Note: I'm not praising our pitching or saying they are not a big part of our current standing, but our D has sucked, badly.)

[Behindenemylines]

I can see the logic with the Sale trade, but things couldn't have turned out worse for the Sox. Sale is having a Cy Young season pitching more innings this season then the last few combined that he pitched for the Sox. Meanwhile, Grissom has been hurt, or when he has been playing it has been a dumpster fire. That last few weeks there has been a glimmer of hope as he has begin to hit for the Woo Sox. It is telling that he was buy passed when Hamilton got hurt and the Sox basically were saying that he will remain in AAA for the rest of 2024. Going into next season he will be in the mix for 2B, but not giving the his to lose 2B going into 2024. For the future you hope that Grissom gives them some value from the trade. As far as Sale, that is just bad luck for the Sox, How things might look this season if he was pitching for the Sox like he is pitching for the Braves. I can't get mad because he was part of the 2018 championship!

[Bellhorn04]

3 hours ago, Behindenemylines said:

As far as Sale, that is just bad luck for the Sox, How things might look this season if he was pitching for the Sox like he is pitching for the Braves. I can't get mad because he was part of the 2018 championship!

Personally I don't think this trade can be chalked up to bad luck.  When a team desperately in need of starting pitching trades a starting pitcher, even an injury-prone one, it's a move that's open to question.  Breslow knew there was a reasonable chance Sale would have a decent 2024 (no one in their right mind could have foreseen just how good Sale's 2024 would be).  If there was no chance, why in the heck would Atlanta want him?  Why would they work out a deal with him giving them 3 years control over him?

The Grissom part is bad luck, so far at least.  But the Sale part was not bad luck.  It was a questionable decision that blew up.

  

[Old Red]

43 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Personally I don't think this trade can be chalked up to bad luck.  When a team desperately in need of starting pitching trades a starting pitcher, even an injury-prone one, it's a move that's open to question.  Breslow knew there was a reasonable chance Sale would have a decent 2024 (no one in their right mind could have foreseen just how good Sale's 2024 would be).  If there was no chance, why in the heck would Atlanta want him?  Why would they work out a deal with him giving them 3 years control over him?

The Grissom part is bad luck, so far at least.  But the Sale part was not bad luck.  It was a questionable decision that blew up.

  

B O O M! Not only did it blow up, but the Red Sox footed the bill for it to blow up. Boom, Boom!

[Duran Is The Man]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Personally I don't think this trade can be chalked up to bad luck.  When a team desperately in need of starting pitching trades a starting pitcher, even an injury-prone one, it's a move that's open to question.  Breslow knew there was a reasonable chance Sale would have a decent 2024 (no one in their right mind could have foreseen just how good Sale's 2024 would be).  If there was no chance, why in the heck would Atlanta want him?  Why would they work out a deal with him giving them 3 years control over him?

The Grissom part is bad luck, so far at least.  But the Sale part was not bad luck.  It was a questionable decision that blew up.

  

the Sox front office has a history of horrendous moves. it's insane. i, honest to God, think this board could do a better job running this team than the absolute morons in the Sox FO.

[Old Red]

3 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

the Sox front office has a history of horrendous moves. it's insane. i, honest to God, think this board could do a better job running this team than the absolute morons in the Sox FO.

And with the 12th pick in the 2024 HOBO draft the Red Sox select Brez.

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Personally I don't think this trade can be chalked up to bad luck.  When a team desperately in need of starting pitching trades a starting pitcher, even an injury-prone one, it's a move that's open to question.  Breslow knew there was a reasonable chance Sale would have a decent 2024 (no one in their right mind could have foreseen just how good Sale's 2024 would be).  If there was no chance, why in the heck would Atlanta want him?  Why would they work out a deal with him giving them 3 years control over him?

The Grissom part is bad luck, so far at least.  But the Sale part was not bad luck.  It was a questionable decision that blew up.

  

If the Sox could have moved David Price, but without trading Mookie, should they have?  

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, notin said:

If the Sox could have moved David Price, but without trading Mookie, should they have?  

It's a fair question, but any answer that anyone gives now is naturally biased by hindsight, by the knowledge that Price didn't have much left.

One thing I will always remember is that Kimmi didn't like them trading Price.  And no one was more against mega contracts than Kimmi.  But she thought it made no sense at the time to move starting pitching.

My guess is that Kimmi didn't like the Sale-Grissom trade either, for the same reason.

Kimmi come back! 

  

 

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Personally I don't think this trade can be chalked up to bad luck.  When a team desperately in need of starting pitching trades a starting pitcher, even an injury-prone one, it's a move that's open to question.  Breslow knew there was a reasonable chance Sale would have a decent 2024 (no one in their right mind could have foreseen just how good Sale's 2024 would be).  If there was no chance, why in the heck would Atlanta want him?  Why would they work out a deal with him giving them 3 years control over him?

The Grissom part is bad luck, so far at least.  But the Sale part was not bad luck.  It was a questionable decision that blew up.

  

How was there a DRCENT CHANCE Sale would have a good 2024? Because he threw 40 acceptable innings at the end of 2023?  He did that in 2021 as well, and followed it up with FIVE INNINGS PITCHED in 2022.  But two years older at age 35, and there was a decent chance at a comeback? 
 

Atlanta wasn’t taking the same chance as Boston.  Sale was a $10mill gamble to them, not a $27.5mill gamble.  They extended him because they had to in order to get Sale to approve the deal.  If they didn’t have to, they possibly wouldn’t have. At least not within 3 days of the trade.  

[Bellhorn04]

2 minutes ago, notin said:

How was there a DRCENT CHANCE Sale would have a good 2024? Because he threw 40 acceptable innings at the end of 2023?  He did that in 2021 as well, and followed it up with FIVE INNINGS PITCHED in 2022.  But two years older at age 35, and there was a decent chance at a comeback? 
 

Atlanta wasn’t taking the same chance as Boston.  Sale was a $10mill gamble to them, not a $27.5mill gamble.  They extended him because they had to in order to get Sale to approve the deal.  If they didn’t have to, they possibly wouldn’t have. At least not within 3 days of the trade.  

So what are you saying, Atlanta made this trade just for funsies, basically?

Sale was healthy at the end of 2023, that's the big thing.  And past injuries are not necessarily predictive of future injuries.  I think that's actually a medical fact. 

 

[notin]

Sale gave the Sox 102 IP with a 4.30ERA sandwiched around a shoulder injury, but the Sox should have foreseen the comeback at age 35.

27yo Tanner Houck has given the Sox 164 IP with a 3.12 ERA, but he’s a fungible mid-rotation starter.

 

Ftom 2020-23, Sale pitched 150 IP, but the Sox should have foreseen keeping him in the rotation.

Ftom 2021-23, Garrett Whitlock pitched 223 IP, but the Sox refuse to learn their lesson that he’s not durable enough for the rotation.

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

3 minutes ago, notin said:

Sale gave the Sox 102 IP with a 4.30ERA sandwiched around a shoulder injury, but the Sox should have foreseen the comeback at age 35.

27yo Tanner Houck has given the Sox 164 IP with a 3.12 ERA, but he’s a fungible mid-rotation starter.

 

Ftom 2020-23, Sale pitched 150 IP, but the Sox should have foreseen keeping him in the rotation.

Ftom 2021-23, Garrett Whitlock pitched 223 IP, but the Sox refuse to learn their lesson that he’s not durable enough for the rotation.

 

 

The Sox didn't have to "foresee" anything.  Nobody can "foresee" anything, especially when it comes to the health and performance of baseball pitchers.

"Nobody could have seen this coming" is a classic straw man argument.

 

[notin]

5 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

So what are you saying, Atlanta made this trade just for funsies, basically?

Sale was healthy at the end of 2023, that's the big thing.  And past injuries are not necessarily predictive of future injuries.  I think that's actually a medical fact. 

 

Atlanta made the trade because it was a worthwhile gamble.  Boston paid the bulk of the biggest risk - the salary.  And Atlanta had and still has plenty of pitching depth to cover any Sale injury.  It’s a safe bet Breslow asked for a young pitching prospect in return, but Atlanta didn’t comply.  Maybe they felt Sale might not add to their depth.

Sale was healthy at the end of 2021.  How did that work out?

Thats 100 percent dependent on the injury.  If you want to claim that sweeping generalization as a medical fact, I would demand proof.  And Sale had some freak injuries, but not all of them were.  Some were baseball issues.

 

[notin]

2 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

The Sox didn't have to "foresee" anything.  Nobody can "foresee" anything, especially when it comes to the health and performance of baseball pitchers.

"Nobody could have seen this coming" is a classic straw man argument.

 

As opposed to “sunk cost” arguments on a player who clearly wasn’t sunk cost. Or “then why did Atlanta” arguments that have been answered multiple times?  Want to know why the Braves were willing to take a chance on Sale? Because they knew. Because witchcraft!! Is that what you need to hear?

Sale’s comeback is unprecedented in MLB history in multiple ways.

The Sox lacked pitching depth.  They desperately needed IP to relieve a bullpen load that was going to be burdened by a staff of young SP.  If you needed an innings eater, would Chris Sale really have been your choice?