Chris Sale traded to Braves

[mvp 78]

First you have to explain how he could do those May and June numbers while injured.

 

73 k's in 6 games against these teams:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/2019.shtml

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/2019.shtml

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2019.shtml

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/KCR/2019.shtml

 

BAL and KC were minor league teams that year too.

[Bellhorn04]

73 k's in 6 games against these teams:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/2019.shtml

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/2019.shtml

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2019.shtml

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/KCR/2019.shtml

 

BAL and KC were minor league teams that year too.

 

They were still major league players. Unless we're buying into old man complaints that players just aren't as good anymore.

 

Plus other pitchers got to face these teams too, so if we really wanted to dig we'd have to do a lot of comparisons.

 

Edit: May 19-31, 2019 - 3 games vs. Houston and NYY - Sale struck out 25 in 17.1 IP.

Edited August 16, 2024 by Bellhorn04

[moonslav59]

We all agreed this offseason that they didn't do enough. I think a lot of this conversation is just talking in circles. Without Henry allowing the Sox to go over the CBT, the rotation will just look like Frankenstein's monster for awhile. This monster was scary good for a little while and then scary bad later on once the villagers figured out how to fight it.

 

Well said, and since this is not the 5th year in a row where the budget prevented the upkeep and upgrade of the staff from happening, it's no wonder we are where we are, right now.

 

Here is a look at the "net" rotation spending (rotation contracts lost and replaced in winters:)

 

2020:

-$14.6M ($6M Perez-$20.6M Porcello)

 

2021:

+$9M ($10M Richards + $5M Perez -$6M Perez)

 

2022:

-$5.3M ($10M Paxton +$7M Wacha + $5M Hill -$10M Richards -$8.3M ERod -$5M Perez)

 

2023:

-$25M ($10M Kluber +$4M Paxton -$17M Nate- $10M Paxton-$7M Wacha-$5M Hill)

 

2024:

-$3.5M ($19.2M Giolito + $1.3M Anderson -$10M "saved" from Sale to ATL -$10M Kluber -$4M Paxton

 

This is almost $40M cut from the rotation in 5 years.

[notin]

The Sale extension was not a clear overpay at the time. $145 million, with a present value of $128 million because of deferrals, for one of the top pitchers in the game. It was much less than Price and some others got.

 

Sale was healthy at the end of 2018 and obviously his medical exam didn't turn up anything serious. He pitched 147 innings in 2019.

 

The injury concerns were real, but can we please stick to the facts?

 

So now the debate is Sale’s health at the time of the extension?

 

Here’s the thing, and you broached it but then ignored it.

 

Sale signed this deal at a time when his older peers like Price and Zack Greinke were signing longer deals in excess of $200mill. Sale clearly settled for a deal much less than his expected worth. Why? Possible he was aware if he pitched the 2019 season that he wouldn’t command a deal in that range any more anyway? He already spent the bulk of his early career as one of the most underpaid players in the game, why continue there? One would think his agent, whom Sale pays to advise him, would have been SCREAMING “open market!!” so loud it could have been heard at both poles simultaneously. Unless Sale wasn’t exactly his old self physically.

 

And someone will of course counter tis with “maybe he just wanted Boston and money wasn’t important” and pretend that is a definitive counterpoint that clinches the argument. It is a possible maybe, but it doesn’t eliminate other possibilities. And the fact that Sale had a rough year (by his standards) in 2019 and then 4 years of various injuries does support him knowing he had some physical issues that could be problematic…

[mvp 78]

They were still major league players. Unless we're buying into old man complaints that players just aren't as good anymore.

 

2019 was the highpoint for MLB strikeouts: 42,822. Hitters couldn't hit for s*** that year! That's a 27% increase over what it was 10 years before. It was an 81% increase from the baseball I grew up with 30 years before that! Harumph!

[mvp 78]

This is almost $40M cut from the rotation in 5 years.

 

Let's go!

[Bellhorn04]

So now the debate is Sale’s health at the time of the extension?

 

Here’s the thing, and you broached it but then ignored it.

 

Sale signed this deal at a time when his older peers like Price and Zack Greinke were signing longer deals in excess of $200mill. Sale clearly settled for a deal much less than his expected worth. Why? Possible he was aware if he pitched the 2019 season that he wouldn’t command a deal in that range any more anyway? He already spent the bulk of his early career as one of the most underpaid players in the game, why continue there? One would think his agent, whom Sale pays to advise him, would have been SCREAMING “open market!!” so loud it could have been heard at both poles simultaneously. Unless Sale wasn’t exactly his old self physically.

 

And someone will of course counter tis with “maybe he just wanted Boston and money wasn’t important” and pretend that is a definitive counterpoint that clinches the argument. It is a possible maybe, but it doesn’t eliminate other possibilities. And the fact that Sale had a rough year (by his standards) in 2019 and then 4 years of various injuries does support him knowing he had some physical issues that could be problematic…

 

Thank you Captain Obvious.

 

Yes, I will stipulate to the plausibility of the premise that Sale was willing to accept a below-market deal because he recognized that he was an elevated injury risk.

[notin]

Thank you Captain Obvious.

 

Yes, I will stipulate to the plausibility of the premise that Sale was willing to accept a below-market deal because he recognized that he was an elevated injury risk.

 

It was my first thought when he signed the extension. There might even be a post on here stating it…

[Maxbialystock]

It was my first thought when he signed the extension. There might even be a post on here stating it…

 

This is all news to me, which means I wasn't keeping very good track of the Sale deal. I do remember writing on talksox I thought Chris Sale was the most professional pitcher I'd ever seen. Very focused, so much so he rarely shook off his catcher. Execution for him was everything, and that included getting into good defensive position and playing good defense. He was the polar opposite of ERod.

 

Anyway, great discussion of Sale's motives, contract, etc.

 

To me the story of the Sale deal with the Braves is that they saw his potential and the Sox so-called brain trust did not. And that leads me to the belief that JH is not completely wrong when he distrusts his brain trusts ability to invest wisely in good arms.

[notin]

This is all news to me, which means I wasn't keeping very good track of the Sale deal. I do remember writing on talksox I thought Chris Sale was the most professional pitcher I'd ever seen. Very focused, so much so he rarely shook off his catcher. Execution for him was everything, and that included getting into good defensive position and playing good defense. He was the polar opposite of ERod.

 

Anyway, great discussion of Sale's motives, contract, etc.

 

To me the story of the Sale deal with the Braves is that they saw his potential and the Sox so-called brain trust did not. And that leads me to the belief that JH is not completely wrong when he distrusts his brain trusts ability to invest wisely in good arms.

 

I cut the Sox some slack there. Sale has been nothing but frustrating for the last 4 seasons, and his inability to stay on the field was costly enough that it probably made him difficult to replace. (Becoming cheap bastards didn’t help either.)

 

Not sure how much potential the Braves saw in Sale. They did, after all, have the Sox take on the bulk of the financial risk, which, if they knew they were getting 2017 Sale, was definitely a way to jeopardize that deal. And as it looks like Sale wanted an extension as a condition to approve the trade, Atlanta obliged but used the opportunity to lower his AAV in the process.

 

I think Atlanta is equally happy and surprised with how this has all panned out…

[Bellhorn04]

I think Atlanta is equally happy and surprised with how this has all panned out…

 

Happy, yes. Somewhat surprised at the level he's pitching at, sure. Totally surprised? Obviously not, or they wouldn't have made the deal.

[moonslav59]

Happy, yes. Somewhat surprised at the level he's pitching at, sure. Totally surprised? Obviously not, or they wouldn't have made the deal.

 

They might have made the deal, expecting (or hoping for only) 140 IP and a 3.80 ERA.

 

Certainly Sale is in another class of pitchers like Richards and maybe Kluber, although Kluber had several great seasons, but without knowing the name, had someone said the Sox signed a pitcher for $10M who had this record since 2019, who would have been thrilled?

 

5 seasons

298 IP (avg 60 per season)

58 GS (about 12 per season)

17-18 record

4.16 ERA

3.56 FIP

 

FYI:

Kluber's previous 5 seasons before we signed him:

496 IP (99 IP/season)

88 GS (15 GS/season)

3.72 ERA

3.46 FIP

 

Richards: 199 IP and 41 GS

3.53 ERA

3.86 FIP

 

Paxton: 333 IP and 63 GS

3.98 ERA/3.59 FIP

 

Weird how the best SP'er we signed had these previous 5 year numbers:

535 IP & 99 GS

4.51 ERA/4.49 FIP (Wacha)

[Old Red]

Happy, yes. Somewhat surprised at the level he's pitching at, sure. Totally surprised? Obviously not, or they wouldn't have made the deal.

 

Atlanta was interested in Sale last year, and it was probably them who contacted the Red Sox this past offseason, and not the other way around. I agree that they don’t think there is any big surprise to the Braves that Sale is pitching this well in a Braves uniform. Maybe all Sale needed was to get away from that bad injury juju that seems to be hanging over Boston the past few years.

[dgalehouse]

The Brave's G.M., Anthopoulos , basically hustled the new kid in town, Breslow. I think Craig is smart enough to realize this and learn from it.

[Old Red]

The Brave's G.M., Anthopoulos , basically hustled the new kid in town, Breslow. I think Craig is smart enough to realize this and learn from it.

 

I agree. Getting Brez to pay $17M has worked out pretty well for the Braves.

[Bellhorn04]

They might have made the deal, expecting (or hoping for only) 140 IP and a 3.80 ERA.

 

Certainly Sale is in another class of pitchers like Richards and maybe Kluber, although Kluber had several great seasons, but without knowing the name, had someone said the Sox signed a pitcher for $10M who had this record since 2019, who would have been thrilled?

 

5 seasons

298 IP (avg 60 per season)

58 GS (about 12 per season)

17-18 record

4.16 ERA

3.56 FIP

 

FYI:

Kluber's previous 5 seasons before we signed him:

496 IP (99 IP/season)

88 GS (15 GS/season)

3.72 ERA

3.46 FIP

 

Richards: 199 IP and 41 GS

3.53 ERA

3.86 FIP

 

Paxton: 333 IP and 63 GS

3.98 ERA/3.59 FIP

 

Weird how the best SP'er we signed had these previous 5 year numbers:

535 IP & 99 GS

4.51 ERA/4.49 FIP (Wacha)

 

I've always been a Sale Pollyanna through all the injuries. I stayed a Pollyanna because I thought his ability was still largely intact and his attitude seemed solid.

 

I feel the same about Story now. I don't want him traded either.

[mvp 78]

I've always been a Sale Pollyanna through all the injuries. I stayed a Pollyanna because I thought his ability was still largely intact and his attitude seemed solid.

 

I feel the same about Story now. I don't want him traded either.

 

While moon went from Chris Freakin Sale to Freakin Chris Sale.

 

I’ve never been sold on Story. Square peg. Round hole.

[Old Red]

I've always been a Sale Pollyanna through all the injuries. I stayed a Pollyanna because I thought his ability was still largely intact and his attitude seemed solid.

 

I feel the same about Story now. I don't want him traded either.

 

Maybe it would do Story some good too to get away from Boston.

[Bellhorn04]

While moon went from Chris Freakin Sale to Freakin Chris Sale.

 

I’ve never been sold on Story. Square peg. Round hole.

 

His defense has been pretty damn good when he's played, no? Plus he seemed to be going the extra mile in the offseason with his camps or whatever he was doing.

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe it would do Story some good too to get away from Boston.

 

One Sale Redux coming up!

[vegasbob]

While moon went from Chris Freakin Sale to Freakin Chris Sale.

 

I’ve never been sold on Story. Square peg. Round hole.

 

Rational opinion. What exactly has Story done in the minimal games he did play over the past 2 seasons ?

[moonslav59]

I've always been a Sale Pollyanna through all the injuries. I stayed a Pollyanna because I thought his ability was still largely intact and his attitude seemed solid.

 

I feel the same about Story now. I don't want him traded either.

 

I was a huge Sale fan, but 5 years of waiting and what ifs tired me out. Then, when I kept seeing us sign injury-prone pitcher after injury-prone pitcher the whole concept of "hope and prayer" rotations sickened me.

 

I was not a Gio fan, but I did expect us to at least get 28 starts and 170+ IP.

 

We are snake-bitten.

[moonslav59]

Rational opinion. What exactly has Story done in the minimal games he did play over the past 2 seasons ?

 

Great D.

[Bellhorn04]

Rational opinion. What exactly has Story done in the minimal games he did play over the past 2 seasons ?

 

Played vastly better D than any of our other infielders.

[mvp 78]

Played vastly better D than any of our other infielders.

 

Very true.

[Hugh2]

Maybe it would do Story some good too to get away from Boston.

 

 

It would do the fans much better if these guys learned to be good here.

[Duran Is The Man]

i wanted Semien. :-(

[Old Red]

Yes another good outing by the Sale Man last night as he picked up his MLB leading 14th win with a 6H, 2ER, 10K game over 6 innings. Still taking the mound, and mowing them down. Also leading all of MLB in K’s, and second in ERA. The Braves don’t even have to go to the bank to pay him this year due to the courtesy, and kindness of JH, and the Boston Red Sox. What a steal by the Braves. Edited August 18, 2024 by Old Red

[Jasonbay44]

At least I bought low on Sale in my dynasty league and he’s dominating in fantasy for me.

[Maxbialystock]

Yes another good outing by the Sale Man last night as he picked up his MLB leading 14th win with a 6H, 2ER, 10K game over 6 innings. Still taking the mound, and mowing them down. Also leading all of MLB in K’s, and second in ERA. The Braves don’t even have to go to the bank to pay him this year due to the courtesy, and kindness of JH, and the Boston Red Sox. What a steal by the Braves.

 

Steal indeed. That's what the Breslow defenders refuse to acknowledge--that the Braves knew more about Sale than the Sox did--including Breslow, JH, the rest of the front office, and probably even Cora. Sale was also smarter than the Sox because he insisted on at least one more season after this, which the Braves agreed to. The Braves also have an option on a third season in 2026,

 

Meanwhile, Breslow picked up Giolito for $38M for 2 seasons, one of which he's already missed.

 

And people wonder why JH refuses to shell out $150M or more for a really good starter.

 

I do credit Breslow for bringing in Bailey as the pitching coach.