Chris Sale traded to Braves

[mvp 78]

I can certainly understand the reasoning behind trading the upside potential a Chris Sale had for a more durable but less upside pitcher like Gio, especially when you see how badly we've done with injury-prone pitchers over the years (Richards, Wacha, Hill, Kluber, Paxton...) It didn't work. We got it wrong.

 

That does not change the fact that there was a reason for trying it. (The other reason was to try and fix our worst position in 5 years: 2B.)

 

Anyway you look at it, we did not address the need to vastly improve our rotation. We basically swapped out Sale, Kluber and Paxton for Gio. I can understand not wanting to trade top prospects for pitching buy spending less AAV on Gio ($18.5M) + $17M for Sale to play in ATL vs last year's $27M for Sale, $10M for Kluber and $4M for Paxton was not what I had hoped for. Spending less to try and fix a rotation that was severely flawed last year is asking for failure.

 

We all agreed this offseason that they didn't do enough. I think a lot of this conversation is just talking in circles. Without Henry allowing the Sox to go over the CBT, the rotation will just look like Frankenstein's monster for awhile. This monster was scary good for a little while and then scary bad later on once the villagers figured out how to fight it.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

That's beside the point of whether this particular trade made sense.

 

I don't see how. "Get this guy out of here", "Chris Frail can't be counted on " and "they should have never signed him to that extension" and then saying "we should have kept him" is what I've been reading and they are obviously completely conflicting opinions.

[mvp 78]

I don't see how. "Get this guy out of here"' date=' "Chris Frail can't be counted on " and "they should have never signed him to that extension" and then saying "we should have kept him" is what I've been reading and they are obviously completely conflicting opinions.[/quote']

 

Now imagine if Sale stayed with the Sox and had a great year. Would posters be clamoring for him to re-sign or let him go? Trade at the deadline? Whatever happened, we know that someone would complain 2 years later that the wrong decision was made and that ONLY THEY knew at the time what to do.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't see how. "Get this guy out of here"' date=' "Chris Frail can't be counted on " and "they should have never signed him to that extension" and then saying "we should have kept him" is what I've been reading and they are obviously completely conflicting opinions.[/quote']

 

Just because a few posters said those things doesn't mean everyone did. You're cherry-picking.

 

As we've been talking about and documenting, the initial reaction to this trade was very mixed, and some people hated it. Others like me said it would only make sense if it meant they were making a significant addition besides Giolito.

 

It's not nearly as simple as you're trying to make it.

Edited August 16, 2024 by Bellhorn04

[Bellhorn04]

Now imagine if Sale stayed with the Sox and had a great year. Would posters be clamoring for him to re-sign or let him go? Trade at the deadline? Whatever happened, we know that someone would complain 2 years later that the wrong decision was made and that ONLY THEY knew at the time what to do.

 

If Sale was having a great year with us his vesting option would likely kick in and most people would be happy about it.

 

A few would still want us to Sell High of course.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't see how. "Get this guy out of here"' date=' "Chris Frail can't be counted on " and "they should have never signed him to that extension" and then saying "we should have kept him" is what I've been reading and they are obviously completely conflicting opinions.[/quote']

 

Chris Sale was one of the most epic signing failures in Red Sox history. His huge extension wasn't just a mistake, like Edgar Renteria or Carl Crawford, who pro baseball execs didn't realize were horrible fits for Boston until it was too late -- but to their credit, they got rid of asap.

 

The Sale situation stunted the franchise for half a decade -- not because he was a bad fit (he wasn't; Chris loved Boston, and fans loved him) -- but because the team kept waiting for their ace to come back... year after injury after rehab. It just never worked out for the Red Sox...

 

... but I would've still predicted he'd hang in there longer this season than Paxton.

[mvp 78]

All due respect, you only have 446 posts in 11 years here, so I don't think you can say you've been following along closely.

 

Unfair.

[Bellhorn04]

Unfair.

 

Withdrawn. The rest of what I said was the important part.

[mvp 78]

Chris Sale was one of the most epic signing failures in Red Sox history. His huge extension wasn't just a mistake, like Edgar Renteria or Carl Crawford, who pro baseball execs didn't realize were horrible fits for Boston until it was too late -- but to their credit, they got rid of asap.

 

The Sale situation stunted the franchise for half a decade -- not because he was a bad fit (he wasn't; Chris loved Boston, and fans loved him) -- but because the team kept waiting for their ace to come back... year after injury after rehab. It just never worked out for the Red Sox...

 

... but I would've still predicted he'd hang in there longer this season than Paxton.

 

The theory is that they signed Sale and Eovaldi because they couldn't re-sign Mookie, right? Even so, don't sign a bad contract just because you have the ability to. Chris Sale was injured at the time. It was a clear overpay. I know the Sox feel like they got a below market deal because of the injury, but signing injured guys is just dumb (see Story, Paxton, et al).

[Bellhorn04]

The theory is that they signed Sale and Eovaldi because they couldn't re-sign Mookie, right? Even so, don't sign a bad contract just because you have the ability to. Chris Sale was injured at the time. It was a clear overpay. I know the Sox feel like they got a below market deal because of the injury, but signing injured guys is just dumb (see Story, Paxton, et al).

 

Sale and Bogaerts that is.

 

And Sale was not injured at the end of 2018.

[Bellhorn04]

The Sale extension was not a clear overpay at the time. $145 million, with a present value of $128 million because of deferrals, for one of the top pitchers in the game. It was much less than Price and some others got.

 

Sale was healthy at the end of 2018 and obviously his medical exam didn't turn up anything serious. He pitched 147 innings in 2019.

 

The injury concerns were real, but can we please stick to the facts?

[mvp 78]

Sale and Bogaerts that is.

 

And Sale was not injured at the end of 2018.

 

Yes he was. He only pitched 158 innings in 2018. Didn't pitch at all from Aug 13 - Sept 10 due to a shoulder injury.

 

From Over the Monster:

 

Sale suffered a shoulder injury in late-July, then came back for one amazing start in August — one hit and 12 strikeouts over five innings against the Orioles — before missing another month with the same ailment. Once he got back, Sale made four starts in September to finish the year, but they weren’t typical starts. Instead, he was being eased back in to get ready for the postseason. It was the right move for the team, but it did cost the southpaw a legitimate chance at the Cy Young.

 

Then, the postseason rolled around and the team was hoping to get the midsummer version of their ace on the biggest stage... For his standards, this was a negative as he never recorded more than 16 outs in a start and finished the playoffs with a 4.11 ERA. The team won four of the five games in which he appeared, but he wasn’t the dominant Sale we wanted to see.

 

The ace is set to hit free agency after the 2019 campaign, which means we can be expected to hear a whole lot of extension talk throughout the year, unless it gets done sooner. He has expressed an interest to get something done, per reports. As far as him on the mound, his shoulder should recover through rest this offseason, and the team will be sure to take it easy on him in spring training.

[Bellhorn04]

At the end of 2018 Sale finished in the top 6 in Cy Young voting for the 7th year in a row!

[mvp 78]

The Sale extension was not a clear overpay at the time. $145 million, with a present value of $128 million because of deferrals, for one of the top pitchers in the game. It was much less than Price and some others got.

 

Sale was healthy at the end of 2018 and obviously his medical exam didn't turn up anything serious. He pitched 147 innings in 2019.

 

The injury concerns were real, but can we please stick to the facts?

 

Every start after hitting the IL:

 

9/11 1 IP

9/16 3 IP

9/21 3 IP

9/26 4.2 IP

10/5 5.1 IP

10/13 4 IP

10/23 4 IP

 

He was totally healthy!

[mvp 78]

At the end of 2018 Sale finished in the top 6 in Cy Young voting for the 7th year in a row!

 

Wow! That means he was totally healthy, right!

[Bellhorn04]

Yes he was. He only pitched 158 innings in 2018. Didn't pitch at all from Aug 13 - Sept 10 due to a shoulder injury.

 

From Over the Monster:

 

Sale suffered a shoulder injury in late-July, then came back for one amazing start in August — one hit and 12 strikeouts over five innings against the Orioles — before missing another month with the same ailment. Once he got back, Sale made four starts in September to finish the year, but they weren’t typical starts. Instead, he was being eased back in to get ready for the postseason. It was the right move for the team, but it did cost the southpaw a legitimate chance at the Cy Young.

 

Then, the postseason rolled around and the team was hoping to get the midsummer version of their ace on the biggest stage... For his standards, this was a negative as he never recorded more than 16 outs in a start and finished the playoffs with a 4.11 ERA. The team won four of the five games in which he appeared, but he wasn’t the dominant Sale we wanted to see.

 

The ace is set to hit free agency after the 2019 campaign, which means we can be expected to hear a whole lot of extension talk throughout the year, unless it gets done sooner. He has expressed an interest to get something done, per reports. As far as him on the mound, his shoulder should recover through rest this offseason, and the team will be sure to take it easy on him in spring training.

 

He was on the field at the end of 2018. He got the last 3 outs of the year, as I recall. He would have had a medical exam before signing the extension, obviously. You're using a really loose definition of injured.

 

There were injury concerns, that's a different thing.

[Bellhorn04]

Wow! That means he was totally healthy, right!

 

2 separate things?

[Bellhorn04]

Every start after hitting the IL:

 

9/11 1 IP

9/16 3 IP

9/21 3 IP

9/26 4.2 IP

10/5 5.1 IP

10/13 4 IP

10/23 4 IP

 

He was totally healthy!

 

Now do April-June 2019?

[mvp 78]

He was on the field at the end of 2018. He got the last 3 outs of the year, as I recall. He would have had a medical exam before signing the extension, obviously. You're using a really loose definition of injured.

 

There were injury concerns, that's a different thing.

 

He was clearly not 100% at the end of the year. Prior to the injury, he averaged 6.1 per start. The longest he went after was 5.1 in 7 tries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He was clearly injured.

[Bellhorn04]

He was clearly not 100% at the end of the year. Prior to the injury, he averaged 6.1 per start. The longest he went after was 5.1 in 7 tries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He was clearly injured.

 

How 'bout those game logs for the first half of 2019? Over 100 innings in April-June!

 

That kind of destroys the injured thing, no?

[mvp 78]

Now do April-June 2019?

 

His 3.82 ERA over that timeframe is what you're trying to highlight? 1.2 HR/9 that was twice as high as 2018?

[Bellhorn04]

His 3.82 ERA over that timeframe is what you're trying to highlight? 1.2 HR/9 that was twice as high as 2018?

 

C'mon man. May ERA 2.82 7.33 K/BB June ERA 2.73 10.00 K/BB. Please.

[mvp 78]

How 'bout those game logs for the first half of 2019? Over 100 innings in April-June!

 

That kind of destroys the injured thing, no?

 

97th percentile hard hit in 2018

52nd percentile hard hit in 2019

 

Fastball velo 78th percentile 2018

Fastball velo 47th percentile 2019

 

I can do this all day.

[Bellhorn04]

97th percentile hard hit in 2018

52nd percentile hard hit in 2019

 

Fastball velo 78th percentile 2018

Fastball velo 47th percentile 2019

 

I can do this all day.

 

So you're going to ignore the May-June ERA and K rates now?

[Bellhorn04]

Sale was so injured in May, 2019 that he could only strike out 66 guys in 38.1 innings!

[Old Red]

97th percentile hard hit in 2018

52nd percentile hard hit in 2019

 

Fastball velo 78th percentile 2018

Fastball velo 47th percentile 2019

 

I can do this all day.

It’s all DD fault. Bad resigning from Day 1.

[mvp 78]

C'mon man. May ERA 2.82 7.33 K/BB June ERA 2.73 10.00 K/BB. Please.

 

July 5.86 ERA, 2.3 HR/9

Aug 5.40 ERA, 2.0 HR/9

[mvp 78]

So you're going to ignore the May-June ERA and K rates now?

 

You're ignoring everything else about Chris Sale after his shoulder injury in July 2018 so why shouldn't I?

[Bellhorn04]

July 5.86 ERA, 2.3 HR/9

Aug 5.40 ERA, 2.0 HR/9

 

First you have to explain how he could do those May and June numbers while injured.

[Bellhorn04]

You're ignoring everything else about Chris Sale after his shoulder injury in July 2018 so why shouldn't I?

 

Bullfeathers. I've never once said there weren't real injury concerns.