Chris Sale traded to Braves

[Duran Is The Man]

I'm more than happy that to agree that both Price and Sale helped in 2018, the best season in Sox history. They weren't half bad in 2017 either although they stunk in the postseason. I also agree the Sox were helped by acquisitions before and during the 2013 season, ditto 2004 and 2007. In addition, we can both agree that from 2002 through 2019 JH was happy to pay for one of the top payrolls in MLB. In 2021 the Sox payroll was 5th largest and in 2022 6th largest. In 2024 it's 11th largest.

 

However, you have ignored what I also said. In 2019 the situation confronting JH was that his team had the biggest payroll in MLB and his CBO, Dombrowski, needed a whole lot more money to keep Mookie and to replace both Price and Sale while still paying their huge salaries.

 

Also this in 2024--

 

The Mets are 48-45 with the biggest payroll in MLB.

The Astros are 50-44 with the 3d biggest payroll.

The Brewers are 54-41 with the 21st biggest payroll.

The Orioles are 57-37 with the 25th biggest payroll.

The Guardians are 57-36 with the 27th biggest payroll.

 

The 2019 Sox were knee deep in expensive talent (that won the 2018 WS), but didn't make the postseason. The 2024 rely heavily on what I call "no-names" and have a good shot at making the postseason. Their payroll is 11th, but pricey Story, Sale, and Giolito--$57M worth--are unavailable.

 

you keep repeating this ******** over and over. funny how you leave out the team with the best record in baseball with the 4th biggest payroll -the Philadelphia Phillies, run by the same Dave Dombrowski you're always trashing. you're cherry-picking a few numbers to support some ******** theory you have.

[Maxbialystock]

you keep repeating this ******** over and over. funny how you leave out the team with the best record in baseball with the 4th biggest payroll -the Philadelphia Phillies, run by the same Dave Dombrowski you're always trashing. you're cherry-picking a few numbers to support some ******** theory you have.

 

Oh, calm down. I made it quite clear JH spent big for players, 2002-2019, which was one of the reasons why the Sox won 4 WS's after an 86 year drought.

 

Not this time, but elsewhere I have said DD has been repeatedly successful--with Philly, Boston, Detroit, and Florida. He knows what he is doing, including the 2018 Sox, their best team and season ever. However, by 2019, DD's 4th season as CBO, John Henry decided enough was enough.

 

Right now the 2024 Sox look pretty competitive to me, primarily because of their pitching and despite their lousy defense. And this year's payroll is the lowest ranked--11th--in the John Henry era, 2002-2024. Plus $57M (of $182M) goes to Sale (playing for the Braves), Giolito (on the IL), and Story (also on the IL). Contrast that with the 2012 Sox who had the 3d biggest payroll MLB and finished 69-93, 26 games back of the Yankees.

 

If I have a theory, it's that spending big doesn't guarantee success and spending small can sometimes lead to success (if not a WS win).

[moonslav59]

Oh, calm down. I made it quite clear JH spent big for players, 2002-2019, which was one of the reasons why the Sox won 4 WS's after an 86 year drought.

 

Not this time, but elsewhere I have said DD has been repeatedly successful--with Philly, Boston, Detroit, and Florida. He knows what he is doing, including the 2018 Sox, their best team and season ever. However, by 2019, DD's 4th season as CBO, John Henry decided enough was enough.

 

Right now the 2024 Sox look pretty competitive to me, primarily because of their pitching and despite their lousy defense. And this year's payroll is the lowest ranked--11th--in the John Henry era, 2002-2024. Plus $57M (of $182M) goes to Sale (playing for the Braves), Giolito (on the IL), and Story (also on the IL). Contrast that with the 2012 Sox who had the 3d biggest payroll MLB and finished 69-93, 26 games back of the Yankees.

 

If I have a theory, it's that spending big doesn't guarantee success and spending small can sometimes lead to success (if not a WS win).

 

Nobody disputes spending big does not guarantee success, but overall it has been proven to increase a teams odds of making the playoffs and advancing in them.

 

Yes, teams can win without spending, and this year’s Sox are 11th. Many teams have sunken costs, and this year’s Sox might be 1st in that area. However, think of it this way, where would the Sox be now, if we just spent $17M more to keep Sale?

 

We could have spent less AAV on Lugo or Imanaga and maybe be division leaders, right now.

 

Hell, we could have signed Flaherty and have the 4th best record in MLB.

 

Spending helps. Spending it wisely helps even more, but even that does not always translate to success.

 

Look at the signings from 2021 v 2022. I like the 22 additions better than 21’s.

Wacha

Strahm

Hill

 

Vs

Kluber

Turner

Renfroe

 

Nothing is guaranteed in MLB. Everybody knows that.

[Old Red]

Chris Sale finished up the pre AS break part of the season on a winning note raising his record to 13-3, which is the Most wins in MLB for ones who count such things, and the rest of the stats aren’t bad either. 110 IP pitched, 81 hits allowed, and 140 K’s. The Braves are reaping the benefits of this not to mention that the Red Sox are footing the entire bill for this year, and all the Braves have to do is kick back, and watch. What a deal!

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Chris Sale finished up the pre AS break part of the season on a winning note raising his record to 13-3, which is the Most wins in MLB for ones who count such things, and the rest of the stats aren’t bad either. 110 IP pitched, 81 hits allowed, and 140 K’s. The Braves are reaping the benefits of this not to mention that the Red Sox are footing the entire bill for this year, and all the Braves have to do is kick back, and watch. What a deal!

 

Watch the All-Star Game. When Sale is introduced, announcers won't call him the biggest winner in the majors, or the guy who leads the NL in ERA...

 

They'll say, "Here comes Sale, the 2.23 FIPPER and the 0.95 WHIPPER!"

[Bellhorn04]

Watch the All-Star Game. When Sale is introduced, announcers won't call him the biggest winner in the majors, or the guy who leads the NL in ERA...

 

They'll say, "Here comes Sale, the 2.23 FIPPER and the 0.95 WHIPPER!"

 

And the .291 BABIPPER.

[Hitch]

Chris Sale finished up the pre AS break part of the season on a winning note raising his record to 13-3, which is the Most wins in MLB for ones who count such things, and the rest of the stats aren’t bad either. 110 IP pitched, 81 hits allowed, and 140 K’s. The Braves are reaping the benefits of this not to mention that the Red Sox are footing the entire bill for this year, and all the Braves have to do is kick back, and watch. What a deal!

 

It's a real shame that Craig can't see into the future and get every single deal perfectly suited to us. We've missed a trick there. We should have gotten ourselves one of those people.

 

A real shame.

 

But at least we get to moan about it ad nauseam. That's fun.

[mvp 78]

It's a real shame that Craig can't see into the future and get every single deal perfectly suited to us. We've missed a trick there. We should have gotten ourselves one of those people.

 

A real shame.

 

But at least we get to moan about it ad nauseam. That's fun.

 

People have to complain about something when the team that was projected by most posters to be .500 or below is 11 games over 500 at the AS Break and currently holding a playoff spot.

 

Yeah, they haven't lost a series since like May, we need to complain about something!!!

[Bellhorn04]

For me complaining about the Sale trade is not complaining about Breslow, it's complaining about Henry's tight-fistedness, because I think it was the payroll budget that induced this trade.

[mvp 78]

For me complaining about the Sale trade is not complaining about Breslow, it's complaining about Henry's tight-fistedness, because I think it was the payroll budget that induced this trade.

 

There's actually no proof that he's tightfisted at all. He'll spend when it's time! There's a long history of him spending!

[Old Red]

For me complaining about the Sale trade is not complaining about Breslow, it's complaining about Henry's tight-fistedness, because I think it was the payroll budget that induced this trade.

 

If the Red Sox hadn’t signed Gio I would agree, but signing Gio for $18M did not save any money, and still paying $17M for Sale is $35M for the two of them. Now if JH said $45M was too much to keep Sale too, but $35M was OK that’s on him, but I doubt this at all. This was a Brez deal to me. Either way JH is shelling out $35M, and that’s not saving any money. Remember Brez was the 12th pick in the 2024 HOBO draft, and hasn’t proven anything to this point.

Edited July 15, 2024 by Old Red

[Hugh2]

Sometimes I try to think of things worked out differently.

 

For example, Jeter Downs at SS/2B and a premium bat would look pretty damn good right now. Bloom at least had the right ideal in mind, it just didn’t work out.

 

What does this team need the most right now? A starting pitcher and RHH bat up the middle.

 

What if Grissom was healthy and playing like a lot of the experts thought he could? And what if Gio was healthy and pitching like a middle of the rotation starter?

 

This doesn’t make it a good trade or justify it in anyway. And many years of team control allow the capacity for it to work out but right now you certainly have to put it in the loss column for Breslow.

 

Point is, you can see the line of thinking in why those moves were made.

[notin]

For me complaining about the Sale trade is not complaining about Breslow, it's complaining about Henry's tight-fistedness, because I think it was the payroll budget that induced this trade.

 

Eh, they spent.

 

Confidence in Sale was probably not all that high either, since he’d done so little the previous 4 seasons. Even Sale himself might have been questioning it, as he wanted an extension. If he knew he was going to be the top arm available, would he necessarily do that?

[Old Red]

Eh, they spent.

 

Confidence in Sale was probably not all that high either, since he’d done so little the previous 4 seasons. Even Sale himself might have been questioning it, as he wanted an extension. If he knew he was going to be the top arm available, would he necessarily do that?

 

Exactly they spent. I’ve heard all along how the Red Sox saved $10M on Sale, which they did, but spent $18M on Gio, which I don’t know would have happened without that $10M being saved, but in the long run they ended up paying $35M for the two of them. That’s spending more money not saving.

[mvp 78]

They are spending NOT ENOUGH. Henry has more money squirreled away that could help the ballclub.

[Old Red]

They are spending NOT ENOUGH. Henry has more money squirreled away that could help the ballclub.

 

His portfolio is more important to him IMO. The Red Sox are just an old toy to him now.

[notin]

They are spending NOT ENOUGH. Henry has more money squirreled away that could help the ballclub.

 

Plus he could sell his yacht. And his summer place in the Hampton could list on AirBnb.

 

And maybe he could get that OnlyFans channel moving. We need bullpen upgrades!!

[Old Red]

Wait, wait. The Sox are paying Sale $17M while he pitches for the Braves. How is that tightfistedness? To me that is unabashed Boston Red Sox largesse.

 

Moreover, the Sox were so delighted to be rid of Sale, they shelled out $38M for 2 years of Giolito, who is out for this entire season and could miss big chunks of next season.

 

That's $35M for absolutely no pitching at all.

 

I'm not saying JH hasn't been tightfisted recently because he has, especially compared to 2003-2019 when the Sox regularly had the one of the biggest payrolls in MLB.

Well said Max, and agree 100%. I’m sure JH is not happy about shelling out that $35M either.

[notin]

Well said Max, and agree 100%. I’m sure JH is not happy about shelling out that $35M either.

 

And if Henry, Breslow, etc. thought Sale would be healthy, this deal didn’t happen. And neither does Giolito…

[mvp 78]

2nd highest ticket prices and not even a top 10 payroll. Sad that anyone would be ok with this.

[Bellhorn04]

Eh, they spent.

 

Eh, they could have spent plenty more. The 3rd wealthiest team is not in the top 10 payrolls 2 years in a row.

 

I have never argued they should have placed heavy reliance on Sale, just that they shouldn't have tossed the opportunity like they did, for the sake of $10 mill and an OK prospect.

[Bellhorn04]

And if Henry, Breslow, etc. thought Sale would be healthy, this deal didn’t happen. And neither does Giolito…

 

It's silly to speculate about whether they thought he would be healthy. Reality confirms it was very much possible.

 

And your statement about Giolito is also pure unfounded speculation.

[Old Red]

2nd highest ticket prices and not even a top 10 payroll. Sad that anyone would be ok with this.

 

I haven’t heard anyone is happy with the high ticket prices, and not having a top ten payroll. As Max as pointed out many times though JH is shelling out a lot of dead money.

[Old Red]

It's silly to speculate about whether they thought he would be healthy. Reality confirms it was very much possible.

 

And your statement about Giolito is also pure unfounded speculation.

 

Either way JH is shelling out $35M this year, and Nothing is going to change that.

[mvp 78]

I haven’t heard anyone is happy with the high ticket prices, and not having a top ten payroll. As Max as pointed out many times though JH is shelling out a lot of dead money.

 

Who cares about the dead money if it's still not a top 10 payroll?

 

Oh, but here's one bad deal. That means Henry will spend!

[Old Red]

Who cares about the dead money if it's still not a top 10 payroll?

 

Oh, but here's one bad deal. That means Henry will spend!

 

Seriously? You don’t think JH cares about all that dead money that it would give him pause to spend anymore?

[Bellhorn04]

Either way JH is shelling out $35M this year, and Nothing is going to change that.

 

JH isn't shelling out a nickel. He's just getting fatter and fatter. Fans fund the team.

[notin]

Eh, they could have spent plenty more. The 3rd wealthiest team is not in the top 10 payrolls 2 years in a row.

 

I have never argued they should have placed heavy reliance on Sale, just that they shouldn't have tossed the opportunity like they did, for the sake of $10 mill and an OK prospect.

 

The deal did make sense. Sale didn’t give the Sox much for numerous years, and there was a reason we liked the deal at the time.

 

And now Grissom is an “OK prospect”? Some hindsighted downgrading? Or were the Braves - the same team you credit with seeing something in Sale - just flat out wrong when the promoted Grissom to MLB at age 21? How many Ok prospects make MLB at that age?

 

I guess we should downgrade Marcelo Mayer to “mediocre prospect”, or maybe just remove his prospect label altogether. I mean, Mayer hasn’t even sniffed MLB yet, and unless he gets promoted tomorrow, he will be older than Grissom was for his MLB debut. (And there’s no chance of that since there are no games tomorrow.)

[Bellhorn04]

Seriously? You don’t think JH cares about all that dead money that it would give him pause to spend anymore?

 

He cares from the perspective that dead money is bad for the relationship between payroll and on-field success.

 

The Devers extension is looking like a good investment, for the moment at least.

[Bellhorn04]

The deal did make sense. Sale didn’t give the Sox much for numerous years, and there was a reason we liked the deal at the time.

 

And now Grissom is an “OK prospect”? Some hindsighted downgrading? Or were the Braves - the same team you credit with seeing something in Sale - just flat out wrong when the promoted Grissom to MLB at age 21? How many Ok prospects make MLB at that age?

 

I guess we should downgrade Marcelo Mayer to “mediocre prospect”, or maybe just remove his prospect label altogether. I mean, Mayer hasn’t even sniffed MLB yet, and unless he gets promoted tomorrow, he will be older than Grissom was for his MLB debut. (And there’s no chance of that since there are no games tomorrow.)

 

"OK prospect" came from mvp, who knows prospects much better than me, so take it up with him.