Chris Sale traded to Braves

[moonslav59]

Meh. I've blasted Breslow more than anyone else, but he's also the guy who insisted on a new pitching coach, Bailey. To me that was bigger than any pitching deal I can remember the Sox making.

 

And, in case you've forgotten, this 2024 Sox pitching staff is way better than the very pricey 2019 staff DD put together. When DD did that, he was a very experienced and skilled CBO, as he still is right now the Phillies--plus he basically had carte blanche with the Sox and easily the biggest payroll in MLB. Anything he wanted, he got--until the 2019 season unraveled. Then it was, see ya later, DD, and, see ya later, biggest payroll in MLB.

 

This is Breslow's first year, and, as pissed off as I am about Sale and Giolito, I'm pretty happy with him.

 

Part of the reason our rotation is still ranked 6th is the pitching from Criswell, who was a Brez addition.

 

Losing Whitlock is not mentioned, often, and he might have been a bigger loss than Gio. He had a 1.96 ERA after 4 starts.

 

Another amazing part about our rotation's high ranking has been precisely their depth. Of course, counting 'openers" is not really starter depth, but it worked more often than not.

2.33 Winckowski in 5 GS (19.1 IP)

0.00 Bernardino + Kelly in 4GS (just 7.2 IP in those 4 openers)

Anderson had one really bad opener game.

 

Here are the numbers for Whitlock, Wink, Bernardino & Kelly (4 pitchers we could consider as rotation/opener depth:

 

13 GS

45.1 IP

9 ER (1.80 ERA)

33 Hits

33Ks-14 BBs

 

I'm not ting to say I think our pitching depth was fine. I'm just saying the results of our depth are not a main reason we are on the outside looking in, except for the fact that our pen was overly taxed by starting openers 5 times and getting less than 4 IP from Wink in 5 starts and less than 5 IP from Whitlock in 4 GS. Those 14 GS hurt the pen.

 

Add Criswell to the "depth" and the numbers look like this:

 

26 GS

108 IP

37 ER (3.08 ERA is second best on the staff!)

94 Hits (less Hits than IP)

87Ks-29 BBs

For those who think only of wins and losses, the team went 15-11 in these 26 starts!

 

To be fair, add Anderson's 1.2 IP and 5 ERs and we have:

27 GS

3.47 ER (which is almost equal to Crawford)

 

Edited July 26, 2024 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

Part of the reason our rotation is still ranked 6th is the pitching from Criswell, who was a Brez addition.

 

Losing Whitlock is not mentioned, often, and he might have been a bigger loss than Gio. He had a 1.96 ERA after 4 starts.

 

Another amazing part about our rotation's high ranking has been precisely their depth. Of course, counting 'openers" is not really starter depth, but it worked more often than not.

2.33 Winckowski in 5 GS (19.1 IP)

0.00 Bernardino + Kelly in 4GS (just 7.2 IP in those 4 openers)

Anderson had one really bad opener game.

 

Here are the numbers for Whitlock, Wink, Bernardino & Kelly (4 pitchers we could consider as rotation/opener depth:

 

13 GS

45.1 IP

9 ER (1.80 ERA)

33 Hits

33Ks-14 BBs

 

I'm not trying to say I think our pitching depth was fine. I'm just saying the results of our depth are not a main reason we are on the outside looking in, except for the fact that our pen was overly taxed by starting openers 5 times and getting less than 4 IP from Wink in 5 starts and less than 5 IP from Whitlock in 4 GS. Those 14 GS hurt the pen.

Just, because you have numbers doesn’t necessarily means you really have depth.

[mvp 78]

The fact is they didn’t keep Sale, and the Red Sox Now have to add pitching, because subbing Gio for Sale as Bell has said many times did nothing to the depth of the rotation.

 

If they kept Sale, we'd still be asking for pitching at the deadline.

[moonslav59]

If they kept Sale, we'd still be asking for pitching at the deadline.

 

Yup! For sure.

 

Every year: the same thing.

 

Since adding pitchers at the deadline almost always "costs" more, why not add them in the winter? If we end up with too much, we can trade some to desperate teams and get higher return value.

 

It seems so simple.

[Old Red]

If they kept Sale, we'd still be asking for pitching at the deadline.

 

That’s the point that Bell has been making all along on the lack of depth. Most likely Gio would not have been signed, and you would still have the depth problem although a little less, because Sale would be here.

[notin]

If they kept Sale, we'd still be asking for pitching at the deadline.

 

Some people would be insisting the Sox go into Sell Mode and deal Sale, probably for an actual second baseman like that kid in the Braves’ organization whose been tearing up AAA…

[vegasbob]

Some people would be insisting the Sox go into Sell Mode and deal Sale, probably for an actual second baseman like that kid in the Braves’ organization whose been tearing up AAA…

 

Damn good idea, or that former Brave now tearing up AAA for the Red Sox. Why don't they bring him up now, so we can see his ability ? Baby G will be competing with Westbrook, Hamilton, and Romy Gonzalez for playing time, the result of which will be Jamie W. back to WooSox

[mvp 78]

That’s the point that Bell has been making all along on the lack of depth. Most likely Gio would not have been signed, and you would still have the depth problem although a little less, because Sale would be here.

 

Sale

Houck

Crawford

???

???

 

Bello just isn't it right now. I don't know if they need to move him to the pen or down to AAA.

 

Pivetta is all over the place as usual. He's the 5th starter that was promised unless you get someone better. He was pretty good in the pen last season.

 

Criswell is ok, but may need to go to the pen because he doesn't go deep into games and he's never thrown more than 117 innings in a season before.

 

The ??? is also due to the Whitlock injury FWIW.

[moonslav59]

Damn good idea, or that former Brave now tearing up AAA for the Red Sox. Why don't they bring him up now, so we can see his ability ? Baby G will be competing with Westbrook, Hamilton, and Romy Gonzalez for playing time, the result of which will be Jamie W. back to WooSox

 

I'm not sure you have noticed, but other 2Bmen have been doing okay to pretty good for the Sox in the last couple months. Can we wait until they don't to try Grissom, again?

 

Since June 1st:

DHam is 6th in fWAR on the Sox

Romy is 9th

They make a nice platoon at 2B:

.776 DHam v RHPs plus speed

.791 Romy v LHPs (one of the best on the team) .732 career

 

OPS since June 1st:

.973 Valdez (in AAA and better than Grissom on O.)

.749 Romy (not bad on D at SS and 2B, unlike all others)

.688 DHam (16 SB/3 CS since then)

.662 Westbrook (Career .852 v LHPs, a weak area for the Sox)

 

Edited July 26, 2024 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Sale

Houck

Crawford

???

???

 

Bello just isn't it right now. I don't know if they need to move him to the pen or down to AAA.

 

Pivetta is all over the place as usual. He's the 5th starter that was promised unless you get someone better. He was pretty good in the pen last season.

 

Criswell is ok, but may need to go to the pen because he doesn't go deep into games and he's never thrown more than 117 innings in a season before.

 

The ??? is also due to the Whitlock injury FWIW.

 

I'm sticking with Criswell in the rotation. His 65 IP does not worry be, in terms of overloading him. He also has 13 IP in his last 2 GS'd, combined.

[mvp 78]

I'm sticking with Criswell in the rotation. His 65 IP does not worry be, in terms of overloading him. He also has 13 IP in his last 2 GS'd, combined.

 

Are his AAA innings pretend?

[vegasbob]

I'm not sure you have noticed, but other 2Bmen have been doing okay to pretty good for the Sox in the last couple months. Can we wait until they don't to try Grissom, again?

 

Since June 1st:

DHam is 6th in fWAR on the Sox

Romy is 9th

They make a nice platoon at 2B:

.776 DHam v RHPs plus speed

.791 Romy v LHPs (one of the best on the team) .732 career

 

OPS since June 1st:

.973 Valdez (in AAA and better than Grissom on O.)

.749 Romy (not bad on D at SS and 2B, unlike all others)

.688 DHam (16 SB/3 CS since then)

.662 Westbrook (Career .852 v LHPs, a weak area for the Sox)

 

 

Moon, it was an ironic reply to Notin's sarcasm. I dislike Grissom intensely and couldn't care if he ever comes back. Yes, the crew of Valdez, Hamilton, Gonzalez, and even Westbrook have shown up in many situations contributing to wins . They each have their shortcomings and are not likely future stars but they played above their AAA paygrade for large parts of the season to date. Grissom is a loser which will play itself out as he is slowly put back on the field to justify the trade of Sale.

[Old Red]

Sale

Houck

Crawford

???

???

 

Bello just isn't it right now. I don't know if they need to move him to the pen or down to AAA.

 

Pivetta is all over the place as usual. He's the 5th starter that was promised unless you get someone better. He was pretty good in the pen last season.

 

Criswell is ok, but may need to go to the pen because he doesn't go deep into games and he's never thrown more than 117 innings in a season before.

 

The ??? is also due to the Whitlock injury FWIW.

Pivetta is the frustrating one. Like you said he’s all over the place from 1 start to the next.

[moonslav59]

Are his AAA innings pretend?

 

No, and of course 101 IP combined is a little concerning, but I'm less worried about his 101 IP than Houck's 123 and Crawford's 118.

 

I think we can get 5 IP from Criswell for 5-6 more starts. That would get him to just over his career high.

[mvp 78]

Moon, it was an ironic reply to Notin's sarcasm. I dislike Grissom intensely and couldn't care if he ever comes back. Yes, the crew of Valdez, Hamilton, Gonzalez, and even Westbrook have shown up in many situations contributing to wins . They each have their shortcomings and are not likely future stars but they played above their AAA paygrade for large parts of the season to date. Grissom is a loser which will play itself out as he is slowly put back on the field to justify the trade of Sale.

 

Uh oh, we got a Westbrook lover!

[mvp 78]

No, and of course 101 IP combined is a little concerning, but I'm less worried about his 101 IP than Houck's 123 and Crawford's 118.

 

I think we can get 5 IP from Criswell for 5-6 more starts. That would get him to just over his career high.

 

Why be less concerned? It's all concerning!

[moonslav59]

Moon, it was an ironic reply to Notin's sarcasm. I dislike Grissom intensely and couldn't care if he ever comes back. Yes, the crew of Valdez, Hamilton, Gonzalez, and even Westbrook have shown up in many situations contributing to wins . They each have their shortcomings and are not likely future stars but they played above their AAA paygrade for large parts of the season to date. Grissom is a loser which will play itself out as he is slowly put back on the field to justify the trade of Sale.

 

It's hard to keep track of each posters' long-standing positions, and hence sarcasm related to those positions.

 

I have not lost faith in Grissom, but I think Rafaela at SS allows a great OF alignment of Duran, O'Neill and an Abreu-Ref platoon.

 

It also allows DHam to platoon with Romy (SS when Rafaela is in CF or 2B) or Westbrook (2B only.)

 

This alignment is the best middle IF we have seen since Bogey-Story.

[Old Red]

Why be less concerned? It's all concerning!

 

6 starters are quantity, but I’m not sure it’s that much quality. Houck’s, and Kut Man’s innings are a concern, but I think you have to roll the dice with them, and take your chances.

Edited July 26, 2024 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

Why be less concerned? It's all concerning!

 

The context is who should go to the pen.

 

The concern over Criswell's IP total maybe going barely over his career high is less than Bello's production concerns and Pivetta's consistency concerns, IMO.

 

We will have to bite the bullet on Houck and Crawford reaching career highs, and then maybe being asked to pitch more in the playoffs.

 

BTW, Criswell pitched 117.1 IP in 2019 and 118.2 in 2021 (minors+ MLB) plus 70.1 IP in the AASO. Do those IP not count?

 

He also had 117.2 IP, last year (MLB+AAA)

 

He is at 90.2, now. Add 5 IP x 5 GS and he'll be at 115.2. This is a big concern to you?

 

[vegasbob]

Uh oh, we got a Westbrook lover!

 

Well why not--- Jamie Westbrook has the same chance of becoming a HoF'er as does Hamilton, Valdez, Gonzalez , or even the yet to be tested Grissom. Those guys would all have an equal shot, which is to say none at the HoF. That is not to say that they cannot be pieces of a well oiled machine that still has a chance at the MLB expanded playoff tourney to be held this October. Good luck to them all and the Red Sox

[Old Red]

Well why not--- Jamie Westbrook has the same chance of becoming a HoF'er as does Hamilton, Valdez, Gonzalez , or even the yet to be tested Grissom. Those guys would all have an equal shot, which is to say none at the HoF. That is not to say that they cannot be pieces of a well oiled machine that still has a chance at the MLB expanded playoff tourney to be held this October. Good luck to them all and the Red Sox

 

They all have gotten chances this year, because of injuries, and all have contributed at 1 time, or another. Westbrook is back in the lineup tonight with a postseason race in progress.

[moonslav59]

Well why not--- Jamie Westbrook has the same chance of becoming a HoF'er as does Hamilton, Valdez, Gonzalez , or even the yet to be tested Grissom. Those guys would all have an equal shot, which is to say none at the HoF. That is not to say that they cannot be pieces of a well oiled machine that still has a chance at the MLB expanded playoff tourney to be held this October. Good luck to them all and the Red Sox

 

Our 2B position has been so bad, for so long, maybe our expectations are set, too low, but a mid .700 OPS Against vs LHPs is of meaningful value for any team at 2B. It's the D that is in question with Westbrook (v L) and Valdez (v R) at 2B. The DHam-Romy platoon has been better than just capable, so far in 2024.

.776 v RHPs (18 SB- 4CS) DHam

.791 v LHPs (3 SB- 2CS) Romy G

 

Together, this is about a .780 OPS with 21 SBs

[notin]

Well why not--- Jamie Westbrook has the same chance of becoming a HoF'er as does Hamilton, Valdez, Gonzalez , or even the yet to be tested Grissom. Those guys would all have an equal shot, which is to say none at the HoF. That is not to say that they cannot be pieces of a well oiled machine that still has a chance at the MLB expanded playoff tourney to be held this October. Good luck to them all and the Red Sox

 

Not really.

 

Westbrook is 31 years old and in his first season. In order to get on a HOF ballot, a player needs a minimum of 10 seasons in his career, meaning Westbrook would have to play until he was 41, an age much less than 1% of ball players reach while active. Grissom (23) and Hamilton (26) could both achieve this requirement at a more realistic ages…

[Old Red]

Not really.

 

Westbrook is 31 years old and in his first season. In order to get on a HOF ballot, a player needs a minimum of 10 seasons in his career, meaning Westbrook would have to play until he was 41, an age much less than 1% of ball players reach while active. Grissom (23) and Hamilton (26) could both achieve this requirement at a more realistic ages…

 

Maybe Westbrook is a late bloomer.

[Bellhorn04]

Not really.

 

Westbrook is 31 years old and in his first season. In order to get on a HOF ballot, a player needs a minimum of 10 seasons in his career, meaning Westbrook would have to play until he was 41, an age much less than 1% of ball players reach while active. Grissom (23) and Hamilton (26) could both achieve this requirement at a more realistic ages…

 

I think what vegas is suggesting is that they all have zero chance based on their capabilities.

[notin]

Maybe Westbrook is a late bloomer.

 

Who plays until he’s 41 years old?

 

Getting into some very unprecedented territory hear…

[notin]

I think what vegas is suggesting is that they all have zero chance based on their capabilities.

 

Odds are against all of them making Cooperstown, but that hardly makes them equals. Dustin Pedroia isn’t in Cooperstown. Neither is Ed Jurak. So clearly they’re the same. Right?

 

Also it might be a tad early to write off 23yo Grissom…

[Old Red]

Who plays until he’s 41 years old?

 

Getting into some very unprecedented territory hear…

 

I can’t believe you took this that seriously.

[Bellhorn04]

I can’t believe you took this that seriously.

 

He does take things a tad too literally sometimes...

[moonslav59]

He does take things a tad too literally sometimes...

 

He also jokes around, a lot and often furthers unserious pots.