A Realistic View of 2024: Part II

[Bellhorn04]

Luis Tiant's delivery would be illegal, today.

 

There has never been anything like Tiant's windup and delivery.

[Maxbialystock]

It's a marketing thing. Baseball clings to the past like no other sport. Any top 25 list always heavily leans to players pre-1980 and often features black and white film where players are sped up awkwardly. If you put Ohtani on the 1927 Yankees, he'd outhit Gehrig and Ruth. If you brought 1927 Gehrig and Ruth to the 2024 Dodgers, they wouldn't make the All Star team and maybe not even get a starting spot on the Dodgers. The players now are better than they've ever been. Send Houck back to the Dodgers of the early 60's and he's neck and neck with with Koufax.

 

You're dead wrong.

 

I've watched both Koufax and Houck pitch and can assure you that, once Koufax was able to command/control his pitches, he was unreal in a way that Houck could never be. His curve dropped like a rock and his fast ball rose like a rocket.

 

Moreover, in his last six seasons he pitched 255, 184, 311, 223, 335, and 323 innings with ERA's (in the same order, 1961-66) of 3.53, 2.54, 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, and 1.73. In those same 6 seasons he pitched, same order, 15, 11, 20, 15, 27, and 27 complete games. Same six seasons, he had 269, 216, 305, 223, 382, and 317 K's.

 

Do I need to remind you that, as recently as last year, there was doubt that Houck could face a batting order a third freaking time?

 

Koufax was 30 years old in his last season, 1966, and quit because the doctors insisted he must.

 

In his last two seasons, 1965 and 1966, Koufax received a cortisone shot and capsaicin-based capsolin rubbed into his shoulder and arm before every game. After each game, he soaked his arm in ice, but with a rubber sleeve to prevent frostbite. For pain he took empirin with codeine every night and sometimes during games.

 

He threw a perfect game on September 8, 1965. He threw 4 no-hitters. He twice struck out 18 in a single game. He was the first NL pitcher in 20 years to post an ERA under 2.00 and he did it 3 times. In 1963 and 1965 he was the World Series MVP.

[Maxbialystock]

You're dead wrong.

 

I've watched both Koufax and Houck pitch and can assure you that, once Koufax was able to command/control his pitches, he was unreal in a way that Houck could never be. His curve dropped like a rock and his fast ball rose like a rocket.

 

Moreover, in his last six seasons he pitched 255, 184, 311, 223, 335, and 323 innings with ERA's (in the same order, 1961-66) of 3.53, 2.54, 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, and 1.73. In those same 6 seasons he pitched, same order, 15, 11, 20, 15, 27, and 27 complete games. Same six seasons, he had 269, 216, 305, 223, 382, and 317 K's.

 

Do I need to remind you that, as recently as last year, there was doubt that Houck could face a batting order a third freaking time?

 

Koufax was 30 years old in his last season, 1966, and quit because the doctors insisted he must.

 

In his last two seasons, 1965 and 1966, Koufax received a cortisone shot and capsaicin-based capsolin rubbed into his shoulder and arm before every game. After each game, he soaked his arm in ice, but with a rubber sleeve to prevent frostbite. For pain he took empirin with codeine every night and sometimes during games.

 

He threw a perfect game on September 8, 1965. He threw 4 no-hitters. He twice struck out 18 in a single game. He was the first NL pitcher in 20 years to post an ERA under 2.00 and he did it 3 times. In 1963 and 1965 he was the World Series MVP.

 

In high school his primary sport was basketball and led his high school team in scoring his senior year with 16.5 pts per game (2d highest in the league). He played in an exhibition game against the NY Knicks and (at 6'2") twice dunked against Harry Gallatin, the Knicks star.

 

The Dodgers GM, Buzzie Bavasi, treated his star pitcher like spit. After a magnificent 1963 season, Koufax asked for a raise to $75K, which was a lot, but Bavasi leaked that he asked for $90K, which was a lie.

[mvp 78]

I think it's also worth noting that the guys who had the physical tools to be superior athletes might not have even gone into baseball back in the day.

 

The way sports are marekted, with all the youth programs, college programs, and the knowledge that atheltes are paid handsomely and parents pushing kids talented into said programs nowadays there's a far greater chance of superior atheltes being lined up with going into sports.

 

You just look at the average athlete today, the average athlete back then look like the guy on my softball team loading up on beer and wings every night. Oh wait, that's me.

 

Send Hugh back to 1910 and he hits 280, easy.

[mvp 78]

You're dead wrong.

 

I've watched both Koufax and Houck pitch and can assure you that, once Koufax was able to command/control his pitches, he was unreal in a way that Houck could never be. His curve dropped like a rock and his fast ball rose like a rocket.

 

Moreover, in his last six seasons he pitched 255, 184, 311, 223, 335, and 323 innings with ERA's (in the same order, 1961-66) of 3.53, 2.54, 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, and 1.73. In those same 6 seasons he pitched, same order, 15, 11, 20, 15, 27, and 27 complete games. Same six seasons, he had 269, 216, 305, 223, 382, and 317 K's.

 

Do I need to remind you that, as recently as last year, there was doubt that Houck could face a batting order a third freaking time?

 

Koufax was 30 years old in his last season, 1966, and quit because the doctors insisted he must.

 

In his last two seasons, 1965 and 1966, Koufax received a cortisone shot and capsaicin-based capsolin rubbed into his shoulder and arm before every game. After each game, he soaked his arm in ice, but with a rubber sleeve to prevent frostbite. For pain he took empirin with codeine every night and sometimes during games.

 

He threw a perfect game on September 8, 1965. He threw 4 no-hitters. He twice struck out 18 in a single game. He was the first NL pitcher in 20 years to post an ERA under 2.00 and he did it 3 times. In 1963 and 1965 he was the World Series MVP.

 

Fastballs can't rise. It's an impossibility.

 

Houck with guys behind him that could legitimately play defense? He probably has an ERA under 1.50 60 years ago.

[Maxbialystock]

It's a marketing thing. Baseball clings to the past like no other sport. Any top 25 list always heavily leans to players pre-1980 and often features black and white film where players are sped up awkwardly. If you put Ohtani on the 1927 Yankees, he'd outhit Gehrig and Ruth. If you brought 1927 Gehrig and Ruth to the 2024 Dodgers, they wouldn't make the All Star team and maybe not even get a starting spot on the Dodgers. The players now are better than they've ever been. Send Houck back to the Dodgers of the early 60's and he's neck and neck with with Koufax.

 

You're dead wrong.

 

I've watched both Koufax and Houck pitch and can assure you that, once Koufax was able to command/control his pitches, he was unreal in a way that Houck could never be. His curve dropped like a rock and his fast ball rose like a rocket.

 

Moreover, in his last six seasons he pitched 255, 184, 311, 223, 335, and 323 innings with ERA's (in the same order, 1961-66) of 3.53, 2.54, 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, and 1.73. In those same 6 seasons he pitched, same order, 15, 11, 20, 15, 27, and 27 complete games. Same six seasons, he had 269, 216, 305, 223, 382, and 317 K's.

 

Do I need to remind you that, as recently as last year, there was doubt that Houck could face a batting order a third freaking time?

 

Koufax was 30 years old in his last season, 1966, and quit because the doctors insisted he must.

 

In his last two seasons, 1965 and 1966, Koufax received a cortisone shot and capsaicin-based capsolin rubbed into his shoulder and arm before every game. After each game, he soaked his arm in ice, but with a rubber sleeve to prevent frostbite. For pain he took empirin with codeine every night and sometimes during games.

 

He threw a perfect game on September 8, 1965. He threw 4 no-hitters. He twice struck out 18 in a single game. He was the first NL pitcher in 20 years to post an ERA under 2.00 and he did it 3 times. In 1963 and 1965 he was the World Series MVP.

[Old Red]

Fastballs can't rise. It's an impossibility.

 

Houck with guys behind him that could legitimately play defense? He probably has an ERA under 1.50 60 years ago.

 

I’ve Never heard anyone else comparing Houck, and Koufax in the same breath before, so this is a first.🤫

[mvp 78]

In high school his primary sport was basketball and led his high school team in scoring his senior year with 16.5 pts per game (2d highest in the league). He played in an exhibition game against the NY Knicks and (at 6'2") twice dunked against Harry Gallatin, the Knicks star.

 

The Dodgers GM, Buzzie Bavasi, treated his star pitcher like spit. After a magnificent 1963 season, Koufax asked for a raise to $75K, which was a lot, but Bavasi leaked that he asked for $90K, which was a lie.

 

The NBA back in the 50's was even more archaic. This year's Celtics would beat those teams by 50 points. I discount all NBA stats prior to the ABA merger.

[mvp 78]

You're dead wrong.

 

I've watched both Koufax and Houck pitch and can assure you that, once Koufax was able to command/control his pitches, he was unreal in a way that Houck could never be. His curve dropped like a rock and his fast ball rose like a rocket.

 

Moreover, in his last six seasons he pitched 255, 184, 311, 223, 335, and 323 innings with ERA's (in the same order, 1961-66) of 3.53, 2.54, 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, and 1.73. In those same 6 seasons he pitched, same order, 15, 11, 20, 15, 27, and 27 complete games. Same six seasons, he had 269, 216, 305, 223, 382, and 317 K's.

 

Do I need to remind you that, as recently as last year, there was doubt that Houck could face a batting order a third freaking time?

 

Koufax was 30 years old in his last season, 1966, and quit because the doctors insisted he must.

 

In his last two seasons, 1965 and 1966, Koufax received a cortisone shot and capsaicin-based capsolin rubbed into his shoulder and arm before every game. After each game, he soaked his arm in ice, but with a rubber sleeve to prevent frostbite. For pain he took empirin with codeine every night and sometimes during games.

 

He threw a perfect game on September 8, 1965. He threw 4 no-hitters. He twice struck out 18 in a single game. He was the first NL pitcher in 20 years to post an ERA under 2.00 and he did it 3 times. In 1963 and 1965 he was the World Series MVP.

 

Fastballs can't rise. It's an impossibility.

 

Houck with guys behind him that could legitimately play defense? He probably has an ERA under 1.50 60 years ago.

[Hugh2]

Fastballs can't rise. It's an impossibility.

 

Houck with guys behind him that could legitimately play defense? He probably has an ERA under 1.50 60 years ago.

 

 

Sure they can. I just aim straight up at the sky and let it rip.

[notin]

Sure they can. I just aim straight up at the sky and let it rip.

 

“Ball one!”

[notin]

Willie Mays would still be an MLBer today. Frank Robinson would still be an MLBer today. Ty Cobb? It's really hard to say.

 

Cobb would tell you he’d still be the best player today…

[mvp 78]

Sure they can. I just aim straight up at the sky and let it rip.

 

They did say "like a rocket."

[Maxbialystock]

Fastballs can't rise. It's an impossibility.

 

Houck with guys behind him that could legitimately play defense? He probably has an ERA under 1.50 60 years ago.

 

Agree on fastballs, but he did in fact have backspin on the heater. And the curve is reputed to have been the best ever.

 

You are obviously joking about Houck, who is having a great season so far, but who is nothing compared to Koufax.

 

Defenses, sadly, are probably better today than in Koufax's day because of those computer programs which determine the positioning of infielders and outfielders based on hitting data for every batter.

[Hugh2]

Agree on fastballs, but he did in fact have backspin on the heater. And the curve is reputed to have been the best ever.

 

You are obviously joking about Houck, who is having a great season so far, but who is nothing compared to Koufax.

 

Defenses, sadly, are probably better today than in Koufax's day because of those computer programs which determine the positioning of infielders and outfielders based on hitting data for every batter.

 

Not a knock on Koufax at all, but just a general observation.

 

How the heck can anyone definitively say someones curveball was the best ever from 60 years ago?

 

No one who played back then has had to face a MLB curveball today and no one playing today was alive to face one back then.

 

We also couldn't measure spin rates and break back then either.

[mvp 78]

“Ball one!”

 

It's how we can send people into the sun, a fastball from 2036 that reaches escape velo. There's a 13 year old right now being trained at Driveline for this.

[Maxbialystock]

I’ve Never heard anyone else comparing Houck, and Koufax in the same breath before, so this is a first.

 

He's being funny. As a Sox fan, I love the season Houck is having, but he is nothing compared to Koufax, even with all the computer data supporting him.

[mvp 78]

Cobb would tell you he’d still be the best player today…

 

Probably wouldn't want to be on the same field as "those people" though.

[mvp 78]

Agree on fastballs, but he did in fact have backspin on the heater. And the curve is reputed to have been the best ever.

 

You are obviously joking about Houck, who is having a great season so far, but who is nothing compared to Koufax.

 

Defenses, sadly, are probably better today than in Koufax's day because of those computer programs which determine the positioning of infielders and outfielders based on hitting data for every batter.

 

I'm obviously joking about Houck. He'd destroy Koufax in a game of one on one. Probably rock the baby and posterize Koufax.

[mvp 78]

Not a knock on Koufax at all, but just a general observation.

 

How the heck can anyone definitively say someones curveball was the best ever from 60 years ago?

 

No one who played back then has had to face a MLB curveball today and no one playing today was alive to face one back then.

 

We also couldn't measure spin rates and break back then either.

 

They used to measure Sam McDowell's fastballs vs motorcycles. High tech stuff!

 

Let's not get into the Dalkowski nonsense either which really gives up the game...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The only thing we know for sure is that Ottavino would strike out Babe Ruth, like every time. Because he said so.

[mvp 78]

He's being funny. As a Sox fan, I love the season Houck is having, but he is nothing compared to Koufax, even with all the computer data supporting him.

 

The question isn't if he'd throw a no-no, it's how many perfect games he'd toss in a single season.

[mvp 78]

The only thing we know for sure is that Ottavino would strike out Babe Ruth, like every time. Because he said so.

 

And Pedro would drill his ass 100%.

[Maxbialystock]

Not a knock on Koufax at all, but just a general observation.

 

How the heck can anyone definitively say someones curveball was the best ever from 60 years ago?

 

No one who played back then has had to face a MLB curveball today and no one playing today was alive to face one back then.

 

We also couldn't measure spin rates and break back then either.

 

 

Go back and look at those strikeout, ERA, IP, and complete game stats I cited. Koufax was an incredible phenom, if only for six years, 1961-66.

 

I agree today's game has a whole lot more technology to measure spin rates, etc, to say nothing for positioning players on defense, analyzing swings and pitching motions, etc. But I'm not sure that makes these guys better because I know what I saw then and what I see today.

 

One thing we can measure in both eras is number of home runs. And right now it sure looks to me as those both Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron had swings every bit as good as any in the game today. And, while we're on the topic of eras, Mays, Ruth, and Aaron didn't use drugs/supplements to enhance performance they way the modern guys (Bonds, et al) have.

[moonslav59]

Go back and look at those strikeout, ERA, IP, and complete game stats I cited. Koufax was an incredible phenom, if only for six years, 1961-66.

 

I agree today's game has a whole lot more technology to measure spin rates, etc, to say nothing for positioning players on defense, analyzing swings and pitching motions, etc. But I'm not sure that makes these guys better because I know what I saw then and what I see today.

 

One thing we can measure in both eras is number of home runs. And right now it sure looks to me as those both Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron had swings every bit as good as any in the game today. And, while we're on the topic of eras, Mays, Ruth, and Aaron didn't use drugs/supplements to enhance performance they way the modern guys (Bonds, et al) have.

 

Nobody doubts Koufax was dominant in his time. The question is about transfering that dominance to this era.

 

I'm not sure we can so easily say no players from back then could be dominant, now. That seems pretty unilateral.

 

We'll never know.

 

[notin]

They used to measure Sam McDowell's fastballs vs motorcycles. High tech stuff!

 

Let's not get into the Dalkowski nonsense either which really gives up the game...

 

Or the myth of Bob Feller throwing 114 mph and Nolan Ryan throwing 116 mph…

[notin]

Nobody doubts Koufax was dominant in his time. The question is about transfering that dominance to this era.

 

I'm not sure we can so easily say no players from back then could be dominant, now. That seems pretty unilateral.

 

We'll never know.

 

 

We will never know, but what we do know is players are bigger now, more athletic now, train longer now, are more exposed to baseball now, and throw harder now.

 

If Koufax was a young major leaguer today, he’d have been exposed to all the advancements and trainings and youth leagues, and he’d very likely be an even better pitcher for it…

[dgalehouse]

Today's athletes are bigger, stronger and faster. But not necessarily greater. Muhammad Ali would make Tyson Fury look like a buffoon before knocking him cold. And Koufax is an all time great.

[mvp 78]

Go back and look at those strikeout, ERA, IP, and complete game stats I cited. Koufax was an incredible phenom, if only for six years, 1961-66.

 

I agree today's game has a whole lot more technology to measure spin rates, etc, to say nothing for positioning players on defense, analyzing swings and pitching motions, etc. But I'm not sure that makes these guys better because I know what I saw then and what I see today.

 

One thing we can measure in both eras is number of home runs. And right now it sure looks to me as those both Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron had swings every bit as good as any in the game today. And, while we're on the topic of eras, Mays, Ruth, and Aaron didn't use drugs/supplements to enhance performance they way the modern guys (Bonds, et al) have.

 

Babe Ruth hit homeruns off the same pitches that Bobby Dalbec is feasting on in AAA.

[mvp 78]

Or the myth of Bob Feller throwing 114 mph and Nolan Ryan throwing 116 mph…

 

Didn't happen.