Red Sox Starting Rotation 2023

[notin]

Very surprised? I think everyone would be shocked to death if JH told Bloom to go out, and make a serious offer to Ohtani. The Angels have two of the best players in Ohtani, and Trout, and where has that got them? Devers, and Ohtani, and who else?

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if Henry let Bloom make a competitive offer for Ohtani, but I think some other team will make one that makes Bloom’s offer suddenly non-competitive. Plus if Ohtani truly wants the west coast (likely why he eschewed the Yankees last time), then this whole situation is immaterial to the Sox…

[Hugh2]

Very surprised? I think everyone would be shocked to death if JH told Bloom to go out, and make a serious offer to Ohtani. The Angels have two of the best players in Ohtani, and Trout, and where has that got them? Devers, and Ohtani, and who else?

 

Oh so now we don’t want high end talent? Or do we want high end talent that magically signs for peanuts.

 

Like the umpire last night. That’s an inconsistent take.

 

Ohtani gives you a premium bat, and an ace to lead the rotation. We have reset the cap this year, and the farm is supposedly supposed to trickle in around 2024.

 

It’s literally the perfect time to go big.

 

I took a hold stand in 2015. I was the only person who passionately believed the Sox were about to go in and sign David Price. I was insulted and laughed at, and they did JUST that.

 

Everytime you guys think you have Henry figured out he turns around and does the thing you think he wouldn’t. Don’t let the last few years drive your cynicism drive your rational.

 

Ohtani in Boston is very possible.

[Hugh2]

I have a pretty good record when I make a hard stand. Last time I did so was when I said the Sox would definitively resign Devers when almost NO ONE said they would. Because they let their recent cynicism drive their opinion.

 

Throw that out the window.

[moonslav59]

That was not a market setter.

 

Well, the Price signing did break the record for largest FA contract for a SP'er back in 2016.

 

Year before: Scherzer $210M/7 (2015)

 

With inflation, I'm not sure you can call it a "market setter," but it did top Scherzer's deal.

$126M B Zito 2007

$138M J Santana 2008

$161M Sabathia 2009

$180M Verlander 2013

$215M Kershaw 2014

$210M Scherzer 2015

$217M Price 2016

$245M Strasburg 2020

$324M Cole 2020

 

 

[moonslav59]

I have a pretty good record when I make a hard stand. Last time I did so was when I said the Sox would definitively resign Devers when almost NO ONE said they would. Because they let their recent cynicism drive their opinion.

 

Throw that out the window.

 

I thought they'd sign Devers, too, but I was not as certain as you.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I have a pretty good record when I make a hard stand. Last time I did so was when I said the Sox would definitively resign Devers when almost NO ONE said they would. Because they let their recent cynicism drive their opinion.

 

Throw that out the window.

 

That's bull -- most of us who didn't think Bloom would sign Devers weren't cynics. All you had to do was just look at his record of dealing with all the players from the roster that won the World Series the year before he took over.

 

He was stuck with Sale, but before Raffy, all the rest were either traded or not resigned (except Braiser for some reason). That's not cynicism, just history.

[Hugh2]

That's bull -- most of us who didn't think Bloom would sign Devers weren't cynics. All you had to do was just look at his record of dealing with all the players from the roster that won the World Series the year before he took over.

 

He was stuck with Sale, but before Raffy, all the rest were either traded or not resigned (except Braiser for some reason). That's not cynicism, just history.

 

Lol, whatever you guys think. I’m a no bull kind of guy, I’ll swallow my socks when I’m wrong. Something this forum can use more of.

 

Past doesn’t predict the future, my point, which you just reiterated I’m your take. The Sox even said they were setting themselves up for the future. If you took them at their word, it made sense to resign Devers, and you could tell they legit wanted to resign Bogaerts. They just waited too long to get serious and were outbid at this point.

 

The whole “they trade everyone I like, they are small market now, and won’t resign any of their good players” was precisely a cynical take.

 

At least own it. I’ll own my bads. Let’s set a high bar in here.

[mvp 78]

Anything that happened once is possible, and can happen again.

 

I’ve been here for decades. Every time someone says Henry will never zig instead of zagging, he zigs.

 

Not saying it will happen, or even that we are the front runners. But we shouldn’t be very surprised if the Sox make a serious run at Ohtani next year.

 

No chance. None.

[mvp 78]

Very surprised? I think everyone would be shocked to death if JH told Bloom to go out, and make a serious offer to Ohtani. The Angels have two of the best players in Ohtani, and Trout, and where has that got them? Devers, and Ohtani, and who else?

 

They also have a really bad Rendon contract and have had a consistently bad farm system. Even Chaim could make that Angels team better than what it currently is.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Lol, whatever you guys think. I’m a no bull kind of guy, I’ll swallow my socks when I’m wrong. Something this forum can use more of.

 

Past doesn’t predict the future, my point, which you just reiterated I’m your take. The Sox even said they were setting themselves up for the future. If you took them at their word, it made sense to resign Devers, and you could tell they legit wanted to resign Bogaerts. They just waited too long to get serious and were outbid at this point.

 

The whole “they trade everyone I like, they are small market now, and won’t resign any of their good players” was precisely a cynical take.

 

At least own it. I’ll own my bads. Let’s set a high bar in here.

 

I'm glad you'll own your bads -- like putting quotes around something you're replying to that I didn't post.

 

But kudos to you for your prediction that out of the entire 25-man roster that won the most games in Red Sox history, the one player that the new CBO would re-sign would be Devers.

 

I'll never deny I'm a cynic about a lot of things, but history has shown what has become of the Red Sox so far under Chaim Bloom.

 

I'm glad the Sox locked up Raffy, and now I await all the talent Bloom promised to surround him with.

[mvp 78]

Everytime you guys think you have Henry figured out he turns around and does the thing you think he wouldn’t. Don’t let the last few years drive your cynicism drive your rational.

 

If this was the case, he wouldn't be ranting against Mets ownership with every last breath right now and fighting for the rights of small market teams to not pay their players.

[sk7326]

No chance. None.

 

They can try anything. But Ohtani will stay West. Whether that is a SoCal team or the Mariners flying in off the top rope, I don't know.

[sk7326]

Going to baseball reference's value over replacement by position ... the team ranks compared to last year

 

OVERALL: 17th (22nd in 2022)

Pitching Overall: 23rd (19th in 2022)

Starting Pitching: 29th (15th in 2022)

Bullpen: 7th (26th in 2022)

Catcher: 7th (13th in 2022)

First Base: 29th (22nd in 2022)

Second Base: 28th (16th in 2022)

Third Base: 3rd (7th in 2022)

Shortstop: 23rd (4th in 2022)

Left Field: 12th (25th in 2022)

Center Field: 4th (27th in 2022)

Right Field: 2nd (23rd in 2022)

Outfield Overall: 2nd (28th in 2022)

DH: 11th (20th in 2022)

 

Basically we have gotten some huge upgrades in the outfield and bullpen, but they have been eaten up by the leaking oil on the infield and the starting rotation.

[moonslav59]

If Yoshida and Ohtani were best friends, maybe we'd have a shot, but I don't see it.

 

Maybe we focus on Urias or Nola.

[Hugh2]

I will demand tribute from all when Ohtani comes to Boston.

[mvp 78]

They can try anything. But Ohtani will stay West. Whether that is a SoCal team or the Mariners flying in off the top rope, I don't know.

 

I could see the Mets or someone going crazy and giving him a monster deal. I don't see this ownership doing that for him. When have they done that for anyone? Devers didn't set the market at that position.

[mvp 78]

Going to baseball reference's value over replacement by position ... the team ranks compared to last year

 

OVERALL: 17th (22nd in 2022)

Pitching Overall: 23rd (19th in 2022)

Starting Pitching: 29th (15th in 2022)

Bullpen: 7th (26th in 2022)

Catcher: 7th (13th in 2022)

First Base: 29th (22nd in 2022)

Second Base: 28th (16th in 2022)

Third Base: 3rd (7th in 2022)

Shortstop: 23rd (4th in 2022)

Left Field: 12th (25th in 2022)

Center Field: 4th (27th in 2022)

Right Field: 2nd (23rd in 2022)

Outfield Overall: 2nd (28th in 2022)

DH: 11th (20th in 2022)

 

Basically we have gotten some huge upgrades in the outfield and bullpen, but they have been eaten up by the leaking oil on the infield and the starting rotation.

 

Funny, because our concerns this offseason were starting pitching and SS. Thanks, Chaim.

[mvp 78]

I will demand tribute from all when Ohtani comes to Boston.

 

In the visitor's dugout?

[moonslav59]

I will demand tribute from all when Ohtani comes to Boston.

 

As much as I'd love to get Ohtani, I'm not so sure it would be a great thing for the team's long term success, if the plan is to reset every 2-3 years. The Ohtani + Devers deals will greatly impair our ability to stock the rest of the team with significant or moderate signings. We would be fully dependant on our farm.

 

If the player salary budget is near $210M, and Ohtani+Devers = $70M, that is a huge percentage on just 2 guys.

 

I think we will choose to spread the spending around more, especially in light of the Devers extension. Just my opinion.

[moonslav59]

Funny, because our concerns this offseason were starting pitching and SS. Thanks, Chaim.

 

The Story injury put the kibosh on the SS position, and with Mayer in the wings, I can understand why they did not sign a SS longterm.

 

The rotation neglect is puzzling.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, the Price signing did break the record for largest FA contract for a SP'er back in 2016.

 

Year before: Scherzer $210M/7 (2015)

 

With inflation, I'm not sure you can call it a "market setter," but it did top Scherzer's deal.

$126M B Zito 2007

$138M J Santana 2008

$161M Sabathia 2009

$180M Verlander 2013

$215M Kershaw 2014

$210M Scherzer 2015

$217M Price 2016

$245M Strasburg 2020

$324M Cole 2020

 

 

 

And Greinke got 6 years and $206.5 million at around the same time Price got his deal. Greinke's AAV was higher.

[Bellhorn04]

The Story injury put the kibosh on the SS position, and with Mayer in the wings, I can understand why they did not sign a SS longterm.

 

The rotation neglect is puzzling.

 

The neglect is negligent.

[mvp 78]

The Story injury put the kibosh on the SS position, and with Mayer in the wings, I can understand why they did not sign a SS longterm.

 

The rotation neglect is puzzling.

 

Prospects are never a guarantee. You can move a signed SS to 2B or elsewhere. You can move Mayer to a different position or trade him in a package for a starting pitcher if he really develops.

[Hugh2]

And Greinke got 6 years and $206.5 million at around the same time Price got his deal. Greinke's AAV was higher.

 

But at the time Price was the highest. Point still stands. Maybe it won’t be with Ohtani, maybe it won’t be next year, maybe it will be with whoever replaces Bloom if he’s fired this year. But the Sox will strike again.

[Bellhorn04]

But at the time Price was the highest. Point still stands.

 

It's a pretty technical point, then. It doesn't have anything to do with the kind of quantum leap seen in Cole's contract with the Yankees, or with what Ohtani will get.

[Old Red]

They also have a really bad Rendon contract and have had a consistently bad farm system. Even Chaim could make that Angels team better than what it currently is.

 

I would settle for Chaim making the Red Sox better.

[Maxbialystock]

The Story injury put the kibosh on the SS position, and with Mayer in the wings, I can understand why they did not sign a SS longterm.

 

The rotation neglect is puzzling.

 

Agree on SS.

 

As for the rotation, right now I see potential but not enough execution. Sale, for example, stinks overall (ERA 8.22), but was terrific vs. the Twins. Kluber stinks, period. Houck has been surprisingly good. So has Crawford, who for some reason is not allowed to start. Whitlock has one terrific game--Angels, 7 IP, 1 ER--and two lousy ones. Bello, age 23, shows promise with one lousy start vs. the Angels and one almost OK one vs the Brewers. And Pivetta has 3 excellent starts--Brewers, Rays, and Pirates--and one bad one, Angels.

 

Kluber, I agree, was a dumb acquisition. Shame on Bloom. But those other six guys show potential.

[moonslav59]

And Greinke got 6 years and $206.5 million at around the same time Price got his deal. Greinke's AAV was higher.

 

The Price signing was not a clear "market setter," but $210M/7 was the largest contract given to a SP'er up to that time and even over the next 3 winters, so I do think a case can be made that it was just barely one.

[Hugh2]

It's a pretty technical point, then. It doesn't have anything to do with the kind of quantum leap seen in Cole's contract with the Yankees, or with what Ohtani will get.

 

It was still a complete reverse pivot of what everyone said the Sox would do back then. This was after they let John Lester walk and they were signing the mediocre guys to mid-term deals like Hanley and the Panda and then they went ahead and set the market.

 

We can hate the moves they make, the trades, the signings, and how they spread the money around but we can't refute that year in and year out on average they are a top spender, top 5 for a few decades now. It's not outlandish to suggest they would seriously make a run at him.

 

 

Or maybe......Yamamoto is their guy?

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/02/mlb-rumors-yoshinobu-yamamoto-ace-japan-npb-posted-2023.html

[moonslav59]

Agree on SS.

 

As for the rotation, right now I see potential but not enough execution. Sale, for example, stinks overall (ERA 8.22), but was terrific vs. the Twins. Kluber stinks, period. Houck has been surprisingly good. So has Crawford, who for some reason is not allowed to start. Whitlock has one terrific game--Angels, 7 IP, 1 ER--and two lousy ones. Bello, age 23, shows promise with one lousy start vs. the Angels and one almost OK one vs the Brewers. And Pivetta has 3 excellent starts--Brewers, Rays, and Pirates--and one bad one, Angels.

 

Kluber, I agree, was a dumb acquisition. Shame on Bloom. But those other six guys show potential.

 

We lost Nate, Wacha and Hill. I get the Sale/Paxton hope. I get the Bello hope. I get the Whitlock & Houck hopes, but thinking Kluber was enough was just plain wrong.

 

I hate the idea of trying to improve the rotation from the middle or bottom. I always have.

 

We haven't tried to add to the top since the Sale trade. Some might argue Nate, but he was not an ace when we traded for him.