Red Sox Starting Rotation 2023

[moonslav59]

Prospects are never a guarantee. You can move a signed SS to 2B or elsewhere. You can move Mayer to a different position or trade him in a package for a starting pitcher if he really develops.

 

I'm just giving the likely reason.

 

I was for signing Andrus as a bridge. He was still available, even after we found out about the Story injury.

 

I also wanted us to extend Bogey at a reasonable amount.

 

I do think neglecting the rotation was a much bigger mistake.

[moonslav59]

It's a pretty technical point, then. It doesn't have anything to do with the kind of quantum leap seen in Cole's contract with the Yankees, or with what Ohtani will get.

 

One point in favor of the position that Price was a market setting deal, was that it was not matched for 3 seasons.

[moonslav59]

The neglect is negligent.

 

No doubt. Why we spent over 90% of all funds on everything but the rotation is gross negligence.

[sk7326]

The Story injury put the kibosh on the SS position, and with Mayer in the wings, I can understand why they did not sign a SS longterm.

 

The rotation neglect is puzzling.

 

I am less puzzled. There was some calculated bets on Kluber and Sale's okayness that have way not hit so far. For what its worth, both Wacha and Eovaldi have been uninspired so far. I am still somewhat optimistic about Whitlock at least being average - though the lack of strikeouts is not a pleasant indicator. (on top of the stuff allowed of course)

[sk7326]

One point in favor of the position that Price was a market setting deal, was that it was not matched for 3 seasons.

 

The thing about Price at the time was that he was a innings eating monster whose arm summarily fell off after he joined the Sox. And it shows how little we know about the physiology. How does that happen to Price while Lester, who ALSO was an innings workhorse, basically never stopped being one until the very very end of his career.

[notin]

It was still a complete reverse pivot of what everyone said the Sox would do back then. This was after they let John Lester walk and they were signing the mediocre guys to mid-term deals like Hanley and the Panda and then they went ahead and set the market.

 

We can hate the moves they make, the trades, the signings, and how they spread the money around but we can't refute that year in and year out on average they are a top spender, top 5 for a few decades now. It's not outlandish to suggest they would seriously make a run at him.

 

 

Or maybe......Yamamoto is their guy?

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/02/mlb-rumors-yoshinobu-yamamoto-ace-japan-npb-posted-2023.html

 

Well, we do have his former teammate..

[moonslav59]

I am less puzzled. There was some calculated bets on Kluber and Sale's okayness that have way not hit so far. For what its worth, both Wacha and Eovaldi have been uninspired so far. I am still somewhat optimistic about Whitlock at least being average - though the lack of strikeouts is not a pleasant indicator. (on top of the stuff allowed of course)

 

I'm not arguing we should have brought Nate, wacha and Hill back, and replacing them "in kind" does not mean older versions of them would work.

 

I don't think we needed to sign 3 aces. I did think we needed to add one solid #1 or 2 or maybe 2 solid #2/3 types. I thought Kluber might be a good #3 with possible #2 promise.

[Hugh2]

Well, we do have his former teammate..

 

Roki Sasaki sounds like the most interesting guy since Ohtani but I don't think he's getting posted until 2027

[Hugh2]

I'm not arguing we should have brought Nate, wacha and Hill back, and replacing them "in kind" does not mean older versions of them would work.

 

I don't think we needed to sign 3 aces. I did think we needed to add one solid #1 or 2 or maybe 2 solid #2/3 types. I thought Kluber might be a good #3 with possible #2 promise.

 

Without a doubt Kluber is not looking like a great signing, but right now there does'n't seem to have been a better option out there that can't be filled by the talent on this roster.

 

Now obviously guys like DeGrome or Senga could look pretty darn good by the end of the year. But does anyone really want to pay DeGrome when we are on the cusp on getting out from ONE pitchers contract who can't stay healthy????

[sk7326]

I'm not arguing we should have brought Nate, wacha and Hill back, and replacing them "in kind" does not mean older versions of them would work.

 

I don't think we needed to sign 3 aces. I did think we needed to add one solid #1 or 2 or maybe 2 solid #2/3 types. I thought Kluber might be a good #3 with possible #2 promise.

 

Looking at the list of actual free agents - it would have been nice to land Verlander (though of course, he is hurt at the moment). And of course Carlos Rodon is hurt now. That said, there were plenty of solid veterans who signed for short hitches (and yes, I'd include Eovaldi who I'd have brought back considering the price) that the Sox could have done alright.

[sk7326]

Without a doubt Kluber is not looking like a great signing, but right now there does'n't seem to have been a better option out there that can't be filled by the talent on this roster.

 

Now obviously guys like DeGrome or Senga could look pretty darn good by the end of the year. But does anyone really want to pay DeGrome when we are on the cusp on getting out from ONE pitchers contract who can't stay healthy????

 

Yeah - ultimately the adjustment that really has to happen is our talented pitchers have to be available and pitch better.

[notin]

Looking at the list of actual free agents - it would have been nice to land Verlander (though of course, he is hurt at the moment). And of course Carlos Rodon is hurt now. That said, there were plenty of solid veterans who signed for short hitches (and yes, I'd include Eovaldi who I'd have brought back considering the price) that the Sox could have done alright.

 

 

Right now (and yeah, I know it’s early) the top performer among newly signed free agent starting pitchers is deGrom (1.4 fWAR) Then there is a substantial drop off down to Vince Velasquez and Wade Miley (0.4 fWAR each)…

Edited April 25, 2023 by notin

[Hugh2]

Yeah - ultimately the adjustment that really has to happen is our talented pitchers have to be available and pitch better.

 

Well I think it also shows that's not so much that the team failed to address the rotation this offseason, but they've done a piss poor job of developing, acquiring, and locking up good pitching talent for some time now.

 

If the market stinks one year, you should have a couple of guys you can rely on and add depth or middling talent. The Red Sox rotation needed a complete rebuild and the only ACE potential talent either had significant age risk (Verlander), significant injury risk (DeGrome) or unknown risk (Senga).

 

This is why developing pitching is becoming more important. Teams are locking up their guys more and more. The Sox need to serious address this problem. They already have, unfortunately it takes years to develop guys.

[notin]

If Yoshida and Ohtani were best friends, maybe we'd have a shot, but I don't see it.

 

Maybe we focus on Urias or Nola.

 

Urias? Sure.

 

Not Nola. Hard pass…

[mvp 78]

I'm just giving the likely reason.

 

I was for signing Andrus as a bridge. He was still available, even after we found out about the Story injury.

 

I also wanted us to extend Bogey at a reasonable amount.

 

I do think neglecting the rotation was a much bigger mistake.

 

Considering where the rotation's fWAR is right now, probably. They weren't going to fix it by signing one guy at 10M.

[moonslav59]

Without a doubt Kluber is not looking like a great signing, but right now there does'n't seem to have been a better option out there that can't be filled by the talent on this roster.

 

Now obviously guys like DeGrome or Senga could look pretty darn good by the end of the year. But does anyone really want to pay DeGrome when we are on the cusp on getting out from ONE pitchers contract who can't stay healthy????

 

The only solid option that is looking good, now, was trading for Luis Castillo, but that may have cost us Mayer and or Casas/Rafaela/Bello.

[moonslav59]

I still think our rotation might get their act together and find the middle of the pack, but my hopes are dimming with the passing of time.

[mvp 78]

I am less puzzled. There was some calculated bets on Kluber and Sale's okayness that have way not hit so far. For what its worth, both Wacha and Eovaldi have been uninspired so far. I am still somewhat optimistic about Whitlock at least being average - though the lack of strikeouts is not a pleasant indicator. (on top of the stuff allowed of course)

 

Eovaldi has 1 fWAR already thanks to a 2.20 FIP. Just adding Nate would take the Sox pitching from 25th to 17th.

[sk7326]

Right now (and yeah, I know it’s early) the top performer among newly signed free agent starting pitchers is deGrom (1.4 fWAR) Then there is a substantial drop off down to Vince Velasquez and Wade Miley (0.4 fWAR each)…

 

DeGrom is the best pitcher to switch teams - but I do understand a team not wanting to offer him 5 years with his injury history

[Maxbialystock]

We lost Nate, Wacha and Hill. I get the Sale/Paxton hope. I get the Bello hope. I get the Whitlock & Houck hopes, but thinking Kluber was enough was just plain wrong.

 

I hate the idea of trying to improve the rotation from the middle or bottom. I always have.

 

We haven't tried to add to the top since the Sale trade. Some might argue Nate, but he was not an ace when we traded for him.

 

Well, I have to defer to your far greater expertise, especially contained in "I hate the idea of trying to improve the rotation from the middle or the bottom."

 

On the other hand, "improve from the top" includes Price, Sale, and Eovaldi who collectively produced middling results. Kimbrel bombed in the 2018 postseason, but was good in the regular season. Jansen so far has been terrific.

 

We agree on Kluber.

[moonslav59]

Well, I have to defer to your far greater expertise, especially contained in "I hate the idea of trying to improve the rotation from the middle or the bottom."

 

On the other hand, "improve from the top" includes Price, Sale, and Eovaldi who collectively produced middling results. Kimbrel bombed in the 2018 postseason, but was good in the regular season. Jansen so far has been terrific.

 

We agree on Kluber.

 

The Sale trade worked. (It was the extension that is killing us.)

 

The Nate trade worked. He was a big part of the playoff victories. (The extension was meh.)

 

The Price signing was a gross overpay and 2-3 years too long. We all knew it, but how else do you get an ace, when you can't produce one from within the system?

 

(Yes, the easy answer is to improve your system, but that solution has been elusive.)

 

The Beckett trade worked.

 

The Schilling trade worked.

 

The Pedro trade more than worked.

 

The Lackey signing was so-so, but we needed a solid #2 for that ring year.

[Nick]

With one of the largest contracts given out, it's no brainer and nothing wrong with hoping Sale would give the Sox SOMETHING. It remains to be seen how much he has left in his tank. Whether his early struggles are rust coming off of 3 years of no activity or if it's a permanent decline remains to be seen.

 

I am also curious about how Kluber finished out last year. What did Bloom see that we haven't seen from Kluber thus far?

 

I'm also not expecting much from Paxton if he does return.

 

I'm just excited that Houck has developed additional arsenal to become a starter, Bello is evolving and developing (unfortunate that he had a setback during spring training), Whitlock hopefully will come around from the hip injury he sustained last year and Pivetta will continue to give us the innings and every fifth start.

 

I've not given up on Kutter also as a starter. He looks like a better option than Kluber at this point.

 

We're still ahead of last year's pace in April.

 

It doesn't feel like we're in last place.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Nick

[Bellhorn04]

Matt Strahm could have been a nice budget signing as a starter. Ironically signed by none other than the Desperate One.

[Maxbialystock]

The Sale trade worked. (It was the extension that is killing us.)

 

The Nate trade worked. He was a big part of the playoff victories. (The extension was meh.)

 

The Price signing was a gross overpay and 2-3 years too long. We all knew it, but how else do you get an ace, when you can't produce one from within the system?

 

(Yes, the easy answer is to improve your system, but that solution has been elusive.)

 

The Beckett trade worked.

 

The Schilling trade worked.

 

The Pedro trade more than worked.

 

The Lackey signing was so-so, but we needed a solid #2 for that ring year.

 

All good points/pitchers which/who helped get those 4 rings.

[Bellhorn04]

Eovaldi has 1 fWAR already thanks to a 2.20 FIP. Just adding Nate would take the Sox pitching from 25th to 17th.

 

And his contract was reasonable.

[Maxbialystock]

With one of the largest contracts given out, it's no brainer and nothing wrong with hoping Sale would give the Sox SOMETHING. It remains to be seen how much he has left in his tank. Whether his early struggles are rust coming off of 3 years of no activity or if it's a permanent decline remains to be seen.

 

I am also curious about how Kluber finished out last year. What did Bloom see that we haven't seen from Kluber thus far?

 

I'm also not expecting much from Paxton if he does return.

 

I'm just excited that Houck has developed additional arsenal to become a starter, Bello is evolving and developing (unfortunate that he had a setback during spring training), Whitlock hopefully will come around from the hip injury he sustained last year and Pivetta will continue to give us the innings and every fifth start.

 

I've not given up on Kutter also as a starter. He looks like a better option than Kluber at this point.

 

We're still ahead of last year's pace in April.

 

It doesn't feel like we're in last place.

 

You and I are about in the same place although I like Crawford too.

[Hugh2]

Matt Strahm could have been a nice budget signing as a starter. Ironically signed by none other than the Desperate One.

 

Strahm was a reliever no one complained about not resigning here.

 

If the Sox signed him as a starter this offseason Bloom would have been cauterized. Might be one of the best offseason moves so far.

[Bellhorn04]

Strahm was a reliever no one complained about not resigning here.

 

If the Sox signed him as a starter this offseason Bloom would have been cauterized. Might be one of the best offseason moves so far.

 

No, Strahm said he was going to transition to being a starter before the offseason.

[moonslav59]

 

I am also curious about how Kluber finished out last year. What did Bloom see that we haven't seen from Kluber thus far?

Kluber's FIP reamined amazingly consistent, all year.

3.54 after game one.

down to 3.29 by game 17.

as high as 3.75 game 6.

 

Game 12 to the end:

4.57 ERA but 3.55 FIP. His .742 OPSA was not helped by his .324 BAbip

 

Small sample size, but his last 3 starts:

3.38 ERA

3.30 FIP despite a .359 BAbip

[mvp 78]

Strahm was a reliever no one complained about not resigning here.

 

If the Sox signed him as a starter this offseason Bloom would have been cauterized. Might be one of the best offseason moves so far.

 

People liked Strahm. Sox didn't re-sign him because they didn't want to make a place for him in the rotation. Is he Rich Hill 2.0? Only time will tell.