A Realistic View of 2023: Part II

[Hugh2]

Sardonic hyperbole literacy has been in short supply these days on TalkSox. It has become an extremely boring place.

 

Likely story.

[Bellhorn04]

Reese McGuire's 2023 CERA is off to a rocky start with 10 ER in 7 IP.

[Old Red]

Reese McGuire's 2023 CERA is off to a rocky start with 10 ER in 7 IP.

 

While I’m not into that CERA stuff I don’t think it would have mattered if Tek, or Fisk would have been catching what the Red Sox threw out there yesterday for arms.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm just very skeptical about McGuire being a #1 catcher. That's an understatement, actually. The Jays and White Sox both unloaded him last year. Hell, the White Sox took Diekman back and gave us another player to boot.

 

Some folks think all this was a coup on Bloom's part. I think it might be just another cost-cutting move and one with disastrous consequences. Why do we think this guy is actually good, when 2 other teams got rid of him for next to nothing?

[Old Red]

I'm just very skeptical about McGuire being a #1 catcher. That's an understatement, actually. The Jays and White Sox both unloaded him last year. Hell, the White Sox took Diekman back and gave us another player to boot.

 

Some folks think all this was a coup on Bloom's part. I think it might be just another cost-cutting move and one with disastrous consequences. Why do we think this guy is actually good, when 2 other teams got rid of him for next to nothing?

 

I agree with you. I’ve been saying since the Red Sox got him last year that he was nothing more than a backup C, and not any step up from Vaz except for being cheaper, and getting rid of Streakman. This was nowhere near any coup for Bloom, or the Red Sox.

[Hugh2]

I agree with you. I’ve been saying since the Red Sox got him last year that he was nothing more than a backup C, and not any step up from Vaz except for being cheaper, and getting rid of Streakman. This was nowhere near any coup for Bloom, or the Red Sox.

 

Reese McGuire is a really good defender. He's a step up in that way. Since he's been on this team he's played better than Vaszquez.

[Bellhorn04]

Reese McGuire is a really good defender. He's a step up in that way. Since he's been on this team he's played better than Vaszquez.

 

So why did 2 teams jettison him last year for nothing? Are we supposed to believe they didn't realize how good he is?

[notin]

I'm just very skeptical about McGuire being a #1 catcher. That's an understatement, actually. The Jays and White Sox both unloaded him last year. Hell, the White Sox took Diekman back and gave us another player to boot.

 

Some folks think all this was a coup on Bloom's part. I think it might be just another cost-cutting move and one with disastrous consequences. Why do we think this guy is actually good, when 2 other teams got rid of him for next to nothing?

 

Like McGuire or not, he’s better than whatever was next in line from the Sox farm system.

 

The good news is, he apparently has shown similarities to Vazquez. Very similar OPS+. Prior to 2022 (when Vaz just dominated the category), the two had similar DRS. And even StatCast shows similar arm strength.

 

Of course the difference is, McGuire has been doing this on a much smaller scale.

 

There are other reasons for some hope. McGuire started out as a first round pick with some prospect hype, twice making BA Top 100 list, before settling in to his part time role. In this regard, he has some similarity to another Christian on the Sox in Arroyo. And while neither Arroyo nor McGuire May ever reach those early expectations, that doesn’t make them bad players. Draft busts? Ok. But Boston didn’t draft them.

 

And if nothing else, remember Diekman is still under the contract Boston signed him to…

[notin]

So why did 2 teams jettison him last year for nothing? Are we supposed to believe they didn't realize how good he is?

 

So you’re arguing the White Sox happily dumped off McGuire for Diekman?

 

I think maybe they wanted the lefty bullpen arm and we’re happy to get it for a backup catcher rather than overpaying in prospect talent…

[Hugh2]

So why did 2 teams jettison him last year for nothing? Are we supposed to believe they didn't realize how good he is?

 

Why are you asking me? why does any player get traded, released, dfa, not resigned? we see a lot of other reasons that don't equate to "he stinks". I don't know the answer to your question, but I do not McGuire is a plus defender, and at this point in his career entering his age 28 season he's actually put up better offensive numbers than Vasquez did up to age 28. Now that might not mean anything, but we do not Catchers are notorious for being late bloomers with the bat. McGuire doesn't have to be a plus bat. If he has a .680+ OPS with the bat and play plus defense he's fine hitting 9th. If he takes a step forward with the bat then that's amazing.

 

Personally, I wanted to make a run at Contreras.

[Bellhorn04]

Why are you asking me?

 

Rhetorical question, Hugh.

[Bellhorn04]

So you’re arguing the White Sox happily dumped off McGuire for Diekman?

 

I think maybe they wanted the lefty bullpen arm and we’re happy to get it for a backup catcher rather than overpaying in prospect talent…

 

So you're arguing that Diekman is actually good?

[mvp 78]

So you're arguing that Diekman is actually good?

 

Are you arguing that no team has ever made a bad trade before?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The O's baserunners immediately figured out a way to manipulate the new pitch clock rules against the Slow Sox, who let's face it, were totally out-coached. Not only didn't they adjust -- the entire game -- but they didn't catch on enough to even try the same exact strategy when they reached base...

 

McGuire's ultimate solution doesn't instill much confidence: "It all starts with just trying to keep them off base. It starts with, get the guy out in the box and then you don't have to worry about it."

[notin]

So you're arguing that Diekman is actually good?

 

I’m arguing that the White Sox wanted a LHRP after Aaron Bummer, which they felt they needed once they decided to send Tanner Banks down to the minors in June.

 

Maybe Diekman wasn’t the best option available, but he was probably the best one that could be had so cheaply…

Edited March 31, 2023 by notin

[mvp 78]

The O's baserunners immediately figured out a way to manipulate the new pitch clock rules against the Slow Sox, who let's face it, were totally out-coached. Not only didn't they adjust -- the entire game -- but they didn't catch on enough to even try the same exact strategy when they reached base...

 

McGuire's ultimate solution doesn't instill much confidence: "It all starts with just trying to keep them off base. It starts with, get the guy out in the box and then you don't have to worry about it."

 

Mateo - 2 SB (35 in 2022)

Mullins - 2 SB (34 in 2022)

Frazier - 1 SB (11 in 2022)

 

The most amount of SB's a Red Sox player had in 2022 was 13. Seems to be a roster construction issue? The Orioles have guys that can run. The Red Sox do not.

 

The Red Sox did a s*** job of holding runners on though, especially Brasier.

[notin]

Are you arguing that no team has ever made a bad trade before?

 

Also the Jays’ trade of McGuire for another backup catcher in Zack Collins might have simply been related to the fact that Collins had an option left while McGuire did not. The Jays, already with Danny Jansen and Alejandro Kirk, probably did not want 3 catchers on the 26 man roster.

 

Not so sure anyone just “gave up” on McGuire…

[Hugh2]

The O's baserunners immediately figured out a way to manipulate the new pitch clock rules against the Slow Sox, who let's face it, were totally out-coached. Not only didn't they adjust -- the entire game -- but they didn't catch on enough to even try the same exact strategy when they reached base...

 

McGuire's ultimate solution doesn't instill much confidence: "It all starts with just trying to keep them off base. It starts with, get the guy out in the box and then you don't have to worry about it."

 

Is there a better solution to not getting guys out?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Mateo - 2 SB (35 in 2022)

Mullins - 2 SB (34 in 2022)

Frazier - 1 SB (11 in 2022)

 

The most amount of SB's a Red Sox player had in 2022 was 13. Seems to be a roster construction issue? The Orioles have guys that can run. The Red Sox do not.

 

The Red Sox did a s*** job of holding runners on though, especially Brasier.

 

The thing is, slow Sox pitchers continually got down to around eight seconds on the clock to begin deliveries. When it became so predictable, all the O's had to do was count down or look at the clock -- and then take off.

 

Even El Guapo can steal without a throw if he has an eight-second head start.

[mvp 78]

The thing is, slow Sox pitchers continually got down to around eight seconds on the clock to begin deliveries. When it became so predictable, all the O's had to do was count down or look at the clock -- and then take off.

 

Even El Guapo can steal without a throw if he has an eight-second head start.

 

Yes, I agree.

[moonslav59]

The thing is, slow Sox pitchers continually got down to around eight seconds on the clock to begin deliveries. When it became so predictable, all the O's had to do was count down or look at the clock -- and then take off.

 

Even El Guapo can steal without a throw if he has an eight-second head start.

 

Good observation and something that needs to be tweaked.

 

It also makes me think a runner has an advantage when there is 0.5 to 1 second left, I suppose, although the pitcher can still throw to 1B at that last millisecond, too.

[Bellhorn04]

Also the Jays’ trade of McGuire for another backup catcher in Zack Collins might have simply been related to the fact that Collins had an option left while McGuire did not. The Jays, already with Danny Jansen and Alejandro Kirk, probably did not want 3 catchers on the 26 man roster.

 

Not so sure anyone just “gave up” on McGuire…

 

More like he's a Freddy Fungible or Sammy Suitcase profile...

[Hugh2]

Good observation and something that needs to be tweaked.

 

It also makes me think a runner has an advantage when there is 0.5 to 1 second left, I suppose, although the pitcher can still throw to 1B at that last millisecond, too.

 

You would think pitchers would use this to their advantage too to self-correct. Maybe I'm missing something here but I would think this works both ways, if the pitchers noticed it, they should start throwing over at 1-2 seconds left.

 

I think Pitchers should also start working on pitching even quicker than the pitch clock so they have the capacity to mix up the timing. Maybe this won't work for some as pitchers are creatures of habit, but I'd expect some would take to this well.

[notin]

More like he's a Freddy Fungible or Sammy Suitcase profile...

 

To be fair, he was behind two of the better catchers in the AL, including one All Star.

 

At some point, bear in mind both of these teams also traded for McGuire as well. The Jays just had far too much catcher depth. And the White Sox presumably saw him as an upgrade over Zack Collins.

 

Don’t get me wrong. You’ll see better catchers. But that doesn’t necessarily mean McGuire is Everyman With A Mitt…

[mvp 78]

Good observation and something that needs to be tweaked.

 

It also makes me think a runner has an advantage when there is 0.5 to 1 second left, I suppose, although the pitcher can still throw to 1B at that last millisecond, too.

 

Pitchers should just change their cadence. That would solve everything. Brasier didn't even attempt a pick off.

[mvp 78]

To be fair, he was behind two of the better catchers in the AL, including one All Star.

 

At some point, bear in mind both of these teams also traded for McGuire as well. The Jays just had far too much catcher depth. And the White Sox presumably saw him as an upgrade over Zack Collins.

 

Don’t get me wrong. You’ll see better catchers. But that doesn’t necessarily mean McGuire is Everyman With A Mitt…

 

White Sox also needed bullpen help in the stretch run over a backup catcher.

 

I think McGuire is ok. I don't think any other catcher would have fixed the issues the pitchers had yesterday.

[Bellhorn04]

To be fair, he was behind two of the better catchers in the AL, including one All Star.

 

At some point, bear in mind both of these teams also traded for McGuire as well. The Jays just had far too much catcher depth. And the White Sox presumably saw him as an upgrade over Zack Collins.

 

And the Jays jettisoned Collins.

[Bellhorn04]

McGuire is dirt cheap, so at least there's that.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Pitchers should just change their cadence. That would solve everything. Brasier didn't even attempt a pick off.

 

Somebody's gotta say it: Braiser and Ort did notice the clock counting down, but saw it as symbolism...

 

Ironically, waiting until the last second every time may result in the opposite effect of prolonging the inevitable.

[Hugh2]

To be fair, he was behind two of the better catchers in the AL, including one All Star.

 

At some point, bear in mind both of these teams also traded for McGuire as well. The Jays just had far too much catcher depth. And the White Sox presumably saw him as an upgrade over Zack Collins.

 

Don’t get me wrong. You’ll see better catchers. But that doesn’t necessarily mean McGuire is Everyman With A Mitt…

 

Hes' really good defenseively, and since he's been in Boston he's been good with the bat too. I'm not sure where the McGuire hate from left field comes from after opening day. But to each their own.