A Realistic View of 2023: Part II

[Bellhorn04]

Agree. 2018 does not prove that the regulars playing less guarantees better play.

 

But it does make it harder to argue that, when players are rested (or injured), they automatically play worse.

 

You do have a good point there, Max, based on actual logic.

 

Another point which notin made was that you have to play your subs some to keep them from getting rusty.

[Bellhorn04]

A strong argument could be made that Cora was resting the wrong players. It looks like almost our whole pitching staff is running out of gas, except those who have not pitched all that much, like Martin and Jansen.

 

Paxton

3.23 first 9 GS

5.44 last 9 GS

 

Bello

3.76 first 14 GS

4.47 last 8 starts

 

Pivetta

1.88 game 11-26

6.43 last 6 games

 

Winckowski

2.82 first 39 games

4.32 last 9 games

 

Crawford

3.51 first 29 games

3.70 last 18 games

 

Martin only has 43 IP and is getting better

 

Jansen only has 42 IP and is getting better

 

 

 

I didn't think this had anything to do with pitchers.

 

What are you saying about the usage of our pitchers?

[moonslav59]

I didn't think this had anything to do with pitchers.

 

What are you saying about the usage of our pitchers?

 

I thought my first sentence laid out the argument that someone could make.

 

Maybe our pitchers are overworked and could have used some "days off."

[moonslav59]

You do have a good point there, Max, based on actual logic.

 

Another point which notin made was that you have to play your subs some to keep them from getting rusty.

 

Nobody has argued rest makes you worse or "automatically worse."

 

The main point is we are resting better and or hotter players to instead play worse or colder players.

 

The point about keeping your bench fresh and feeling like they are a big part of the team is plus for that side of the debate, for sure.

 

I'm just not sure giving a player 10-16 days off makes them better than giving them 3-9 days off. Even if it does make them slightly better, does playing 5-12 less games make it worth it?

 

There was also the point about how many days off do you need, if you DH a bunch of games.

[Bellhorn04]

I thought my first sentence laid out the argument that someone could make.

 

Maybe our pitchers are overworked and could have used some "days off."

 

Who is overworked in terms of total innings?

 

The biggest problem is the rotation-starters not going deep into games, or no starter available at all, necessitating bullpen games.

 

It's been a ragtag rotation from the get-go. Bello has obviously been the mainstay, the one exciting development. Paxton and Crawford have been good at times. Houck very spotty. Sale mostly injured. Whitlock mostly injured. Kluber useless. Pivetta demoted to the pen.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Bellhorn04

[moonslav59]

Who is overworked in terms of total innings?

 

The biggest problem is the rotation-starters not going deep into games, or no starter available at all, necessitating bullpen games.

 

It's been a ragtag rotation from the get-go. Bello has obviously been the mainstay, the one exciting development. Paxton and Crawford have been good at times. Houck very spotty. Sale mostly injured. Whitlock mostly injured. Kluber useless. Pivetta demoted to the pen.

 

I went out of my way to say "someone could make the point...."

 

Of course, I don't think our pitchers are overworked. They've been home on the couch for their ILs, most of the year.

 

I was making the point that our pitchers have been rested well, and are looking gassed, while our batters have been rested well and have been inconsistent as all hell.

 

Actually, I'm not sure what point that "someone" was trying to make.

 

LMAO

 

Oh, yes, I know what it was: all of our pitchers, except Martin and Jansen have been in decline. (Crawford kinda even.)

[moonslav59]

MLB OPS Leaders 430+ PAs (updated 1 minute ago.)

 

1.075 Ohtani

1.018 Betts

.998 Freeman

.976 Olsen

.975 Acuna

.910 Y Diaz

.891 Tucker

.884 Carroll

.884 Soto

.868 Walker

.860 Devers

.859 Turner

.857 Ozuna

.846 Alonso

.846 Casas

 

3 in the top 15.

 

(JD M does not qualify.)

 

 

[Nick]

Nice job managing. Why don't we just forfeit tomorrow so we can rest our pitching staff?

 

We have 13 pitchers and this the best we can do?

 

Hell Moon might as well manage this this team. He can't do much worse.

[Nick]

In a critical series, after taking 4-3 lead in the fifth, this is the best Cora can come up with?

[Nick]

Let's hear it from all the Cora apologists. You know same ones that defended him in Kike at shortstop experiment.

[notin]

Let's hear it from all the Cora apologists. You know same ones that defended him in Kike at shortstop experiment.

 

The Kike/SS experiment wasn’ta bad idea, since the Sox had no one else capable of playing SS on their 40 man at the time (except minor leaguers Hamilton and Rafaela). The problem was it just went on far, far too long. Especially after the Sox signed Reyes…

[notin]

In a critical series, after taking 4-3 lead in the fifth, this is the best Cora can come up with?

 

Barraclough was a bad call. Not sure why he came out for the 6th when Winckowski, Schreiber and Whitlock were available…

[moonslav59]

Let's hear it from all the Cora apologists. You know same ones that defended him in Kike at shortstop experiment.

 

There are as many people who defended the Kike idea at SS on opening day as how many said they were against it before opening day.

 

Let's have names.

[Nick]

I did not finish my post. I had no issues with Kike playing short to start the year. How did I know he would struggle at short?

 

I was upset with Cora after he said Kike shouldn't play short, but Cora returned him to short.

 

I thought his friendship with Kike had lot to do with it. You want proof? I have none. Just my opinion.

 

I am sure Cora is a good manager but he is not infallible.

 

Of course we knew that.

 

Sue me Moon. I know I'm not perfect like many of you here.

[moonslav59]

I did not finish my post. I had no issues with Kike playing short to start the year. How did I know he would struggle at short?

 

I was upset with Cora after he said Kike shouldn't play short, but Cora returned him to short.

 

I thought his friendship with Kike had lot to do with it. You want proof? I have none. Just my opinion.

 

I am sure Cora is a good manager but he is not infallible.

 

Of course we knew that.

 

Sue me Moon. I know I'm not perfect like many of you here.

 

So, who was defending Cora after we all saw Kike could not field SS? I'm still missing your point.

 

Name one poster.

 

If your point was after we all saw it, I'm still not seeing anyone who supported the idea. In fact, we all hated it, although we may have disagreed on who should be blamed the most.

[Duran Is The Man]

Interesting. Kluber's WAR is -0.9, which means he cost the Sox 1 fewer wins than they would have had from the average MLB player/pitcher. That's actually a lot in terms of his only having played 55 innings, but does show he didn't do as much damage as most claim he did.

 

I've harped on the fact that this year in all games, pretty much regardless of the starter, the Sox need to score 5 runs to have a good chance of winning. This was the case with Kluber. The Sox won every game he pitched in and in which they scored 5 or more runs--and lost every game in which he pitched and the Sox scored fewer than 5 runs.

 

the fact that, as the #1 (or #2) man in the rotation, he only started 9 games this year (instead of ~30), means he cost the team a hell of a lot more than 1 game. i'd say his complete ineffectiveness cost the team about 15 games this year. in summary, he was a giant pile of s*** on the mound and a complete waste of $10 million.

[Duran Is The Man]

MLB OPS Leaders 430+ PAs (updated 1 minute ago.)

 

1.075 Ohtani

1.018 Betts

.998 Freeman

.976 Olsen

.975 Acuna

.910 Y Diaz

.891 Tucker

.884 Carroll

.884 Soto

.868 Walker

.860 Devers

.859 Turner

.857 Ozuna

.846 Alonso

.846 Casas

 

3 in the top 15.

 

(JD M does not qualify.)

 

 

 

that guy in second....Betts. the name sounds familiar.

[Maxbialystock]

the fact that, as the #1 (or #2) man in the rotation, he only started 9 games this year (instead of ~30), means he cost the team a hell of a lot more than 1 game. i'd say his complete ineffectiveness cost the team about 15 games this year. in summary, he was a giant pile of s*** on the mound and a complete waste of $10 million.

 

I agree he was a waste of $10M, but no way, no how did he cost the Sox 15 games. You can't count games he didn't pitch in.

[Maxbialystock]

Let's hear it from all the Cora apologists. You know same ones that defended him in Kike at shortstop experiment.

 

I guess that's me, the Lone Defender. Four points in support of Cora--

 

1. He's done this before this season--sacrificed one reliever to rest the bullpen. In fact, you can argue he did that yesterday with Murphy.

 

2. Sox are in the middle of 48 games with 3 days off--a brutal schedule and especially taxing on the bullpen.

 

3. The rotation has exacerbated the pressure on the bullpen by eating fewer and fewer innings.

 

4. Tonight, I completely agree, was especially galling. However, it was just a 1 run lead and the bullpen was going to have to pitch 4.1 excellent innings to keep that lead. Barraclough did get that 1 out in the 5th, but then there were 4 more innings for the likes of Martin, Winck, Schreiber, Jansen, et al.

[Jasonbay44]

I guess that's me, the Lone Defender. Four points in support of Cora--

 

1. He's done this before this season--sacrificed one reliever to rest the bullpen. In fact, you can argue he did that yesterday with Murphy.

 

2. Sox are in the middle of 48 games with 3 days off--a brutal schedule and especially taxing on the bullpen.

 

3. The rotation has exacerbated the pressure on the bullpen by eating fewer and fewer innings.

 

4. Tonight, I completely agree, was especially galling. However, it was just a 1 run lead and the bullpen was going to have to pitch 4.1 excellent innings to keep that lead. Barraclough did get that 1 out in the 5th, but then there were 4 more innings for the likes of Martin, Winck, Schreiber, Jansen, et al.

So one may argue, why would you essentially forfeit/let a guy die on the mound back to back days? How much rest do all of the relievers need?

[Hugh2]

I'ts almost as if the Sox could have used another pitcher at the deadline.

 

Which no one was saying (sarcasm)

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

An UNrealistic View of 2023: Part Infinity

 

"Swing and a ground ball, stabbed by Sale... he underhands to first and doesn't throw it away! After 86 pitches, the Red Sox have a starting pitcher complete seven innings -- can you believe it!"

 

Back to reality... 2023 is destined to be remembered for The Bear Claw Game

 

At least they brought up Rafaela in time to be eligible for the postseason...

[Bellhorn04]

Peter Abraham's take on the fiasco:

 

In what is Chaim Bloom’s fourth season as chief baseball officer, the Red Sox entered an important game without any lefthanded relievers in the bullpen and at least four righthanders who were deemed unavailable.

 

That left manager Alex Cora with little choice but to wear out a pitcher who was called up from Triple A Worcester before the game and will surely be sent back on Tuesday, if not released.

 

“We had a lot of guys down,” Cora said in a low voice. “This is where we were. It just didn’t happen with [barraclough] today.”

 

That the Red Sox did not even attempt to cobble together 12 outs was stunning. Barraclough walked the first two batters in the sixth inning on 10 pitches and nobody stirred in the bullpen.

 

Houston went on to send 12 batters to the plate and score six runs and nobody warmed up. Barraclough threw 94 pitches, 48 more than he had thrown in any of his previous 227 major league games.

 

He walked five, hit three, and allowed 11 hits.

 

“As bad as I’ve ever thrown the ball in my life,” said Barraclough, who offered no excuses.

 

Once the Astros took a 9-4 lead, Barraclough was left with the task of finishing the game. Houston took full advantage, pounding out hit after hit.

 

It was so bad that Cora offered to have a position player pitch the ninth inning but Barraclough said he would finish the game.

 

“You saw my face. It was all over TV. It’s uncomfortable,” Cora said.

 

Cora said the Sox had Chris Martin and Kenley Jansen available. Josh Winckowski had thrown only 20 pitches over the previous four days, those coming on Saturday. But he was not cleared to pitch by the medical staff.

 

“This is where we were,” Cora said again, a phrase he repeated several times.

 

Where they are is a product of the rotation having thrown the second-fewest innings in the American League. Only Oakland, which gave up on its season before it started, has fewer.

 

Bloom’s decision to add only one starting pitcher to the roster in the offseason, 37-year-old Corey Kluber, has proven disastrous.

 

Kluber was hit hard on Opening Day and had a 6.26 ERA over nine starts before being demoted to the bullpen. He has been on the injured list since June 21.

 

Injury-prone Chris Sale, who allowed three runs over 4⅔ innings Monday, has a 4.75 ERA in 15 starts. James Paxton, who appeared in only six games from 2020-22, pitched well for much of the season but has predictably worn down in recent weeks.

 

Kutter Crawford, Tanner Houck, and Garrett Whitlock have had good moments but all three had been swingmen in their careers. Only Brayan Bello has been in the rotation since April.

[moonslav59]

Bloom’s decision to add only one starting pitcher to the roster in the offseason, 37-year-old Corey Kluber, has proven disastrous.

 

Amazing, how not a single one of us saw this coming!

[Bellhorn04]

Barraclough was a bad call. Not sure why he came out for the 6th when Winckowski, Schreiber and Whitlock were available…

 

Reportedly all three were deemed unavailable for the game because of recent usage and health concerns.

 

We're totally effed, in other words.

[moonslav59]

We went into the season with 8 starters- 9 if you thought Winckowski could start, as many did in March.

 

Sale

Paxton

Kluber

Whitlock

Bello

Pivetta

Houck

Crawford

 

We thought maybe Mata might be ready to step up and had Walter and Murphy as long shot farm depth. Nobody is saying this was great depth, but I counted 11-12 possibles back in spring. If ever there is evidence to prove this old saying correct, it is the 2023 Red Sox:

 

You can never have enough pitching!

 

Funny how my big rotation criticism was that we chose quantity over quality. How wrong can one be?

 

Last year, we felt we'd have had a better chance with a strong pen, so what do we do?

 

We choose to play Whack-A-Mole!

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by moonslav59

[notin]

Bloom’s decision to add only one starting pitcher to the roster in the offseason, 37-year-old Corey Kluber, has proven disastrous.

 

Amazing, how not a single one of us saw this coming!

 

 

His subsequent failures to being in anyone else have not helped either…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

We went into the season with 8 starters- 9 if you thought Winckowski could start, as many did in March.

 

Sale

Paxton

Kluber

Whitlock

Bello

Pivetta

Houck

Crawford

 

We thought maybe Mata might be ready to step up and had Walter and Murphy as long shot farm depth. Nobody is saying this was great depth, but I counted 11-12 possibles back in spring. If ever there is evidence to prove this old saying correct, it is the 2023 Red Sox:

 

You can never have enough pitching!

 

Funny how my big rotation criticism was that we chose quantity over quality. How wrong can one be?

 

 

Give yourself more credit than that. We ALL knew it was folly to count on ANY guys coming off operations, rehab or the brittle ravages of Father Time. Bloom chose to go into the season with a starting rotation featuring exactly two reliably healthy pitchers: Bello and Pivetta.

[Bellhorn04]

Give yourself more credit than that. We ALL knew it was folly to count on ANY guys coming off operations, rehab or the brittle ravages of Father Time. Bloom chose to go into the season with a starting rotation featuring exactly two reliably healthy pitchers: Bello and Pivetta.

 

And the folly of that is now being exposed in a brutal way.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

His subsequent failures to being in anyone else have not helped either…

 

How can you classify Bloom as a failure. How many times does Chaim and BO and Sam have to tell you that investing in quality right now DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

 

The Red Sox are not Overdogs. They're just not good enough YET to acquire any ballplayers good enough... to, uh, make them good enough to... acquire good -- FAAACCKKK!