A Realistic View of 2023: Part II

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'm not trying to bash Nate. I'm glad we had him, and the extension was fine, but 68% is not a workhorse, even if it's the best on the Sox over that period of time.

 

He led the team in innings pitched, and if it wasn't enough for most staffs, that's entirely on the CBO for refusing to build a legitimate rotation over and over again.

 

Call Eovaldi whatever animal you wish -- how about the team Underdog? Then Varitek can send him an Underdog t-shirt that he can wear before he starts against the Sox two or three times in the next month.

[moonslav59]

The revolving door of 1 year signings was and is the joke. But the reaction of most Red Sox fans to Chaim Bloom's pitching plans the past four years hasn't been laughter.

 

And please don't waste time listing his misses and hits; we all know that the rotation -- that toils on the mound in the center of the diamond, a location of import referred to since the beginning of time as 70% of the game -- has been the biggest weakness of the Bloom Era.

 

I've never come close to defending Bloom's choices on rotation additions or moving guys like Whitlock to the rotation.

 

No way does Wacha and Hill even begin to move the needle.

[moonslav59]

He led the team in innings pitched, and if it wasn't enough for most staffs, that's entirely on the CBO for refusing to build a legitimate rotation over and over again.

 

Call Eovaldi whatever animal you wish -- how about the team Underdog? Then Varitek can send him an Underdog t-shirt that he can wear before he starts against the Sox two or three times in the next month.

 

I'm not sure why Bloom's blunders turns Nate into some kind of durable or dependable stud horse.

[notin]

Not for me. From the time he joined the club in late July 2018 through last season, Eovaldi led the Red Sox in all innings pitched -- regular and postseason combined.

 

If you don't want to call him the team ace during that time, he was at least the team workhorse... injuries and all.

 

As he has been only one of two pitchers on that team the entire time, this is not surprising. That you’re essentially saying he threw more IP than Sale is even less.

 

461 regular season IP over 3.9 seasons really isn’t “workhorse” caliber stuff. It’s roughly 118 IP per season. Normally SP who only last 118 IP are candidates for improvement or replacement, not extensions and raises…

Edited August 20, 2023 by notin

[moonslav59]

As he has been only one of two pitchers on that team the entire time, this is not surprising. That you’re essentially saying he threw more IP than Sale is even less.

 

461 regular season IP over 3.9 seasons really isn’t “workhorse” caliber stuff…

 

The other being Chris Frail.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'm not sure why Bloom's blunders turns Nate into some kind of durable or dependable stud horse.

 

... because all the injury-prone veteran starters Bloom acquired (and mostly let leave) were less "durable and dependable" than Eovaldi -- as far as innings pitched?

 

But since this has evolved into semantics -- I said "workhorse" only because the term on pitching staffs (no matter how bad they are) usually refers to innings pitched.

 

You equated workhorse with "stud" -- and while I am no authority on that particular subject, I'd bet if you asked those who are, they would never describe being a stud as work...

[notin]

The other being Chris Frail.

 

Exactly. A pitcher who threw less than 49IP combined in 2019-2021…

[Old Red]

... because all the injury-prone veteran starters Bloom acquired (and mostly let leave) were less "durable and dependable" than Eovaldi -- as far as innings pitched?

 

But since this has evolved into semantics -- I said "workhorse" only because the term on pitching staffs (no matter how bad they are) usually refers to innings pitched.

 

You equated workhorse with "stud" -- and while I am no authority on that particular subject, I'd bet if you asked those who are, they would never describe being a stud as work...

 

At least Bloom did spend some money to fix the backend of the BP, but he certainly hasn’t put much money into the Rotation. ERod, Wacha, and Evol aren’t here, because of money, and the length of money, and that’s why Kluber was signed this past off season, because he was cheap, and for 1 year.

[Nick]

We do backflips when a starter goes 5 innings. That adds up to 150 innings pitched in 30 starts.

 

Oh my, times have changed. Where have real man gone?

[Bellhorn04]

We do backflips when a starter goes 5 innings. That adds up to 150 innings pitched in 30 starts.

 

Oh my, times have changed. Where have real man gone?

 

To see Dr. James Andrews.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

As he has been only one of two pitchers on that team the entire time, this is not surprising.

really isn’t “workhorse” caliber stuff.

 

Thanks for making my point about our CBO and his strategy at rebuilding without a long-lasting, stable starting rotation.

 

And I admit I still miss Nate... our long lost playdog, the slackersloth, the attackotter of inner tubers.

[notin]

He led the team in innings pitched, and if it wasn't enough for most staffs, that's entirely on the CBO for refusing to build a legitimate rotation over and over again.

 

Call Eovaldi whatever animal you wish -- how about the team Underdog? Then Varitek can send him an Underdog t-shirt that he can wear before he starts against the Sox two or three times in the next month.

 

Eovaldi is more of a racehorse than a workhorse. He has all the talent in the world and surprising velocity that seemingly comes from nowhere all wrapped up in a physique more befitting a high school gym teacher than a multimillion dollar professional athlete.

 

But just like you wouldn’t want Secretariat to pull your plow, you don’t want Eovaldi to anchor your staff. His penchant for throwing as hard as he does as often as he does is not a formula for long term success and certainly not for durability.

 

The Sox did offer him a QO and make him a contract offer, reportedly for more money than Texas did. Of course, if he reaches certain incentives, his current 2 year $34mill deal becomes a 3 year $63mill deal. Eovaldi chose to bet on himself. I don’t know the incentives, but given he is currently on the IL, it might have been an unwise bet…

[notin]

Thanks for making my point about our CBO and his strategy at rebuilding without a long-lasting, stable starting rotation.

 

And I admit I still miss Nate... our long lost playdog, the slackersloth, the attackotter of inner tubers.

 

Please name the last long term pitching contract the Sox gave out that worked…

[Bellhorn04]

Please name the last long term pitching contract the Sox gave out that worked…

 

That was probably Lester's extension.

 

OTOH Lackey and Price were *arguably* vital to rings, and thereby hangs a tale.

[Bellhorn04]

Porcello's contract was good if you believe in fWAR.

 

Lackey, Porcello and Eovaldi came close to recouping their contracts, but many will argue they did it all in one season.

[moonslav59]

... because all the injury-prone veteran starters Bloom acquired (and mostly let leave) were less "durable and dependable" than Eovaldi -- as far as innings pitched?

 

But since this has evolved into semantics -- I said "workhorse" only because the term on pitching staffs (no matter how bad they are) usually refers to innings pitched.

 

You equated workhorse with "stud" -- and while I am no authority on that particular subject, I'd bet if you asked those who are, they would never describe being a stud as work...

 

Not really true.

 

Pivetta has been more dependable than Nate, and he was demoted this year, not injured. 30 GS in 2021 and 33 in 2022 (led league in GS)

 

Richards was demoted not injured.

 

Wacha started 23 games in 2022, which is about the same percent of games missed due to injury as Nate's 4 year numbers.

 

Perez was very dependable. (He was demoted from the rotation n 2021- not injured.)

 

Hill got hurt, but still started 26 or 32 games- a way better rate than Nate's.

 

Kluber got demoted and then hurt.

 

GS leaders by season:

 

2019

34 ERod

32 Porcello (talk about dependable in GS and IP)

25 Frail

22 Price

12 Nate

15 Velazquez+Johnson

 

2020

12 Perez

9 Nate

7 Godley

6 Mazza

10 Brewer+Houck+Hart

 

2021

32 Nate

31 ERod

30 Pivetta

22 Richards (demoted)

22 Perez (demoted)

22 Houck+Sale

 

2022

33 Pivetta

26 Hill

23 Wacha

20 Nate

26 Wink + Crawford

20 Bello+ Whitlock

 

 

and 2023

21 Bello

19 Eovaldi (on IL)

16 Crawford (was in pen)

16 Paxton

13 Frail

13 Houck

10 Whitlock

 

Yes, Nate provided the best prolonged pitching by one pitcher since he came here in 2018, but he was not and still is not, and never has been a workhorse.

 

[moonslav59]

Porcello's contract was good if you believe in fWAR.

 

Lackey, Porcello and Eovaldi came close to recouping their contracts, but many will argue they did it all in one season.

 

Or, if IP and GS makes you a workhorse.

[notin]

Porcello's contract was good if you believe in fWAR.

 

Lackey, Porcello and Eovaldi came close to recouping their contracts, but many will argue they did it all in one season.

 

Porcello’s contract was terrific from an IP standpoint.

 

If a contract working out includes one awful year and one completely missed year on a 5 year deal, then Lackey worked out. Of course how many people were thinking this was a good contract 3 years into it?

 

Eovaldi did pitch 2 full seasons, but one of them was only 60 games long. He shouldn’t be penalized for that, but he also shouldn’t be credited with pitching all of 9 games without getting hurt as a sign his durability woes were behind him…

[Bellhorn04]

Porcello’s contract was terrific from an IP standpoint.

 

If a contract working out includes one awful year and one completely missed year on a 5 year deal, then Lackey worked out. Of course how many people were thinking this was a good contract 3 years into it?

 

And Price's contract looked not great, but OK, 3 years in.

[moonslav59]

Despite Porcello and Price not even being on the 2020 team, they started more games than Nate from 2018-2020

65 Porcello

57 ERod (despite missing 2020's COVID season)

52 Price

52 Sale

42 Nate

 

Despite not being on the Sox for most of 2020, Nate has started more games than Nate from 2020-2022"

65 Pivetta

61 Nate

34 Perez (not on '22 team)

 

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I should've listened to Willie Stargell: "At the beginning of the game, the umpire never says, 'Work ball!'"

 

I miss Eovaldi and the rare times he pitched in Boston -- where the mound was his playspace, and the playaholic with his playmanlike manners was charted on playsheets from playbenches... and after games he did his playouts while listening to the Ungrateful Live and their infamous album, Playingman's Dead.

[moonslav59]

Signing Nate, instead of Kluber and Duvall might have still kept us under the tax line, and we'd likely be in a playoff slot, right now, but we'd also be missing Nate for the rest of the season- an all to familiar thing with our best starters (Sale, Nate and Paxton.) We'd also not have Duvall, right now as Duran is slumping, again.

[Nick]

My only point was had we signed Nate instead of Kluber, we'd be in a better place.

 

Sure he is on IL now but his 19 starts, 2.69 ERA, 11-3 record, 123 IP (Bello is tops for the Sox at 119 IP) sure would have helped.

 

Let's move on.....

 

We really need to do a better job this off season.

 

F for starters and A for Martin and Jansen last winter.

[moonslav59]

The Sox currently have the 11th best record in MLB. 12 teams make the playoffs, but we are on the outside, looking in, at the moment.

 

-1.5 from MIL #10

-2.0 from PHI #9 and the great DD constructed team with an easier schedule

-2.5 from TOR #8

-3.o from SEA #7

 

We need to get to the #7 slot to make the 12 team playoffs, as of now.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

My only point was had we signed Nate instead of Kluber, we'd be in a better place.

 

Sure he is on IL now but his 19 starts, 2.69 ERA, 11-3 record, 123 IP (Bello is tops for the Sox at 119 IP) sure would have helped.

 

Let's move on.....

 

We really need to do a better job this off season.

 

F for starters and A for Martin and Jansen last winter.

 

It's ok, but remember: Nate was just unreliable enough to pitch the most Boston innings in all his time as a Red Sox.

 

And not only do we really need to do a better job this offseason, but also at the next trade deadline -- but only if we're overdogs...

[moonslav59]

It's ok, but remember: Nate was just unreliable enough to pitch the most Boston innings in all his time as a Red Sox.

 

And not only do we really need to do a better job this offseason, but also at the next trade deadline -- but only if we're overdogs...

 

Actually, ERod has more IP with the Sox from 2018-2022.

 

491 ERod

462 Nate

446 Pivetta

423 Sale

 

If you want to argue, Nate was not with the Sox for all of 2018, then one can argue ERod was not here in 2022, and Pivetta in 2018, 2019 or most of 2020.

 

IMO, from the summer of 2018 to the end of 2022, ERod and Pivetta were more of a "horse" than Nate.

Edited August 20, 2023 by moonslav59

[Nick]

It's ok, but remember: Nate was just unreliable enough to pitch the most Boston innings in all his time as a Red Sox.

 

And not only do we really need to do a better job this offseason, but also at the next trade deadline -- but only if we're overdogs...

 

One thing we should all acknowledge is that it take more than one or two superstars to sustain a team through 162 game season. You gotta pack the 26 man roster with good baseball players. As an example, bunch of crummy pitchers in slots 11-13 will kill a team at some point. Replacement players should be good enough not only to hold the spot for an injured player but actually contribute when playing.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Actually, ERod has more IP with the Sox from 2018-2022.

 

491 ERod

462 Nate

446 Pivetta

423 Sale

 

If you want to argue, Nate was not with the Sox for all of 2018, then one can argue ERod was not here in 2022, and Pivetta in 2018, 2019 or most of 2020.

 

IMO, from the summer of 2018 to the end of 2022, ERod and Pivetta were more of a "horse" than Nate.

 

Just because you can't let it go, here is my original post on this that you actually put in your first Reply With Quote:

 

"From the time he joined the club in late July 2018 through last season, Eovaldi led the Red Sox in all innings pitched -- regular and postseason combined."

And since you think the term workhorse is a joke to describe the leader in innings pitched, here is the Oxford non-animal definition: "a person or machine that dependably performs hard work over a long period of time."

 

Now I will defer to your subjective opinion of what constitutes "dependably" and "hard work" and "a long period of time."

 

But let's not move the foul poles onto a putting green next to a pond stocked with goldfish which are really carp that are actually the traditional Christmas meal in the Czech Republic.

[Nick]

Core Group Update (team control starting in 2024 inc)

 

CC Wong (5)

1B Casas (5)

2B Reyes (4)/Urias (2)

3B Devers (10)

SS Story (5)

LF Yoshida (4)

CF Duran (5)

RF Verdugo (1)

DH ???????

 

SP Bello (5)

SP Kutter (5)

RP Whitlock (5)

RP Winckowski (5)

RP Bernardino (5)

RP Llovera (5)

RP Murphy (5)

RP Walter (5)

RP Houck (4)

RP Schreiber (3)

SP Sale (2)

CL Jansen (1)

RP Martin (1)

SP Pivetta (1)

 

 

I'm sticking with this for now.

 

$60M.....3 starters at $20M?

Edited August 20, 2023 by Nick

[illinoisredsox]

My only point was it seemed as though the Sox did not pursue him hard enough for whatever reason. Many people on this board thought he was injury prone.

 

This myth has to stop.

 

The Sox offered him a Qualifying Offer, which was worth roughly $19.5M. He turned it down. They then offered him a multi year deal that was supposedly worth more in AAV than the one he ultimately accepted with Texas. He turned that down as well. The Sox moved on.

 

I would have loved to have seen him back in Boston, but it’s never good practice to bid against yourself.