The Pen

[Maxbialystock]

Fair point about 'strength' being a subjective term. The pen has been called upon to pitch more than expected. All things considered, the pen has been very good and is far from being a weakness. I agree that we need a pen reinforcement or two, but I think just about every contending team finds itself in the same situation midseason.

 

Heck, this year I've always thought of the bullpen as a strength even though there have definitely been some bad moments/games. It's always great, however, to see some stats from moonslav to back that impression up.

 

Another--no doubt specious--way of looking at the bullpen is to say that the five best (Walden, Workman, Brasier, Barnes, Hembree) are paid a total of $5.1M and their combined WAR is 4.2. The top four starters (Price, Sale, Porcello, ERod) are paid a total of $88M and their combined WAR is 4.8. "Wait just a minute," you are no doubt thinking. "What about the cotton-picking innings pitched?" Glad you asked. The starters (just those 4) have pitched a humoungous 330 innings, and the weakling bullpen (just those 5) have pitched a paltry 166 innings, which is almost exactly half of what the starters have thrown.

 

In other words, DD has spent a fortune on the rotation, and nickels and dimes on the bullpen, and the latter are pretty much outperforming the former.

 

So I wouldn't recommend that DD go after another expensive starter, but probably get some bullpen help. Reinforce success, not failure.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Maxbialystock

[dgalehouse]

I have a problem with the expression " playing with house money". For one thing , once you have won it , it is not house money . It is yours. Besides that , it sounds kind of like , " It's okay to lose ." It is never okay to lose .

[Maxbialystock]

I have a problem with the expression " playing with house money". For one thing , once you have won it , it is not house money . It is yours. Besides that , it sounds kind of like , " It's okay to lose ." It is never okay to lose .

 

Meh. House money can also mean earned fan loyalty. Are you saying you've lost yours because you expected the Sox to be better?

[dgalehouse]

Meh. House money can also mean earned fan loyalty. Are you saying you've lost yours because you expected the Sox to be better?

 

I also have a problem with the expression " meh ". Actually, I have a problem with a lot of things. But loyalty isn't one of them .

[Maxbialystock]

I also have a problem with the expression " meh ". Actually, I have a problem with a lot of things. But loyalty isn't one of them .

 

That word is no doubt a bad habit of mine. I do think, however, that house money simply means this year we should be somewhat forgiving of the stumbles because last year was close to the best year in Red Sox history. I think Cora had something to do with that, so I'm especially unwilling to dump on him. And neither he nor the players think it's "okay to lose."

[moonslav59]

Meh. It was only 1.75 million, and there is no real cap, just higher tax brackets.

 

$1.75M in July is equal to paying a pro-rated $5.2M contract.

[Kimmi]

Heck, this year I've always thought of the bullpen as a strength even though there have definitely been some bad moments/games. It's always great, however, to see some stats from moonslav to back that impression up.

 

Another--no doubt specious--way of looking at the bullpen is to say that the five best (Walden, Workman, Brasier, Barnes, Hembree) are paid a total of $5.1M and their combined WAR is 4.2. The top four starters (Price, Sale, Porcello, ERod) are paid a total of $88M and their combined WAR is 4.8. "Wait just a minute," you are no doubt thinking. "What about the cotton-picking innings pitched?" Glad you asked. The starters (just those 4) have pitched a humoungous 330 innings, and the weakling bullpen (just those 5) have pitched a paltry 166 innings, which is almost exactly half of what the starters have thrown.

 

In other words, DD has spent a fortune on the rotation, and nickels and dimes on the bullpen, and the latter are pretty much outperforming the former.

 

So I wouldn't recommend that DD go after another expensive starter, but probably get some bullpen help. Reinforce success, not failure.

 

I have always been of the opinion that you can build a very good bullpen for relatively little money. There is a reason why WAR values are so low for relief pitchers. The difference between major league relief pitchers and replacement level is not that large, making relief pitchers easy to replace.

[Bellhorn04]

$1.75M in July is equal to paying a pro-rated $5.2M contract.

 

It's still a small amount for the Red Sox. They took a shot with Thornburg and it didn't pay off. Not a big deal.

[moonslav59]

It's still a small amount for the Red Sox. They took a shot with Thornburg and it didn't pay off. Not a big deal.

 

When you total every dollar we are paying for our pen, Thornburg's contract represented a pretty big chunk of it.

 

Maybe it's a personal bias I have against him, but I thought we should have given up on him last winter.

 

Yes, it's not a majot amount of money, but when we only have $5-6M in budget space, adding $1.75M could end up making a big difference in who we can get.

[mvp 78]

When you total every dollar we are paying for our pen, Thornburg's contract represented a pretty big chunk of it.

 

Maybe it's a personal bias I have against him, but I thought we should have given up on him last winter.

 

Yes, it's not a majot amount of money, but when we only have $5-6M in budget space, adding $1.75M could end up making a big difference in who we can get.

 

This is like going grocery shopping and being extra mad that a loaf of bread you bought was stale even though you came home with green filet mignon.

[Maxbialystock]

Game 1 vs Toronto: bullpen again outdoes the rotation. At a fraction of the cost too.

[devildavid]

Yes, playoff appearances. You’re not better than the Yanks this year.

 

But the Yankees are not really that much better by the numbers, other than the most important one: wins. Talent wise, Sox are closer to the Yanks than the current standings indicate. Yanks edge has been their depth, with all those subs who have carried the team. That could be their ace in the hole this season.

[Jasonbay44]

Bullpen blows yet another lead. This time a 5 run lead. The Red Sox are now 2nd in MLB and 1st in AL in blown saves. The Red Sox have only had 31 save opportunities and have blown 15 of them, which is 2nd worst save percentage in league behind only the Royals. Edited June 22, 2019 by Jasonbay44

[Slasher9]

Game 1 vs Toronto: bullpen again outdoes the rotation. At a fraction of the cost too.

How did today go?

[oldtimer]

How did today go?

 

Pretty clearly the BP gave the game away. HRs, walks , hit batsmen. A 5 run lead going into the 7th and bad performances by several relievers, including Barnes. I don't blame Cora for this, our pen just stunk it up and lost an opportunity to gain on the Rays.

[d-money]

Bullpen blows yet another lead. This time a 5 run lead. The Red Sox are now 2nd in MLB and 1st in AL in blown saves. The Red Sox have only had 31 save opportunities and have blown 15 of them, which is 2nd worst save percentage in league behind only the Royals.

 

That’s insane. Our record would be much better if it wasn’t for these worthless bums.

Edited June 23, 2019 by d-money

[notin]

That’s insane. Our record would be much better if it wasn’t for these worthless bums.

 

 

Not as much as you think. A lot of games have had multiple blown saves...

[Swiharts Ghost]

15 blown saves says it all .Dave failed to get Craig or a proven Closer and it all is unraveling.No one is shocked by this though we are more shocked when we hold on to a save at this point .To compete seriously for a championship the Redsox must have a proven Closer maybe another bat .

[notin]

15 blown saves says it all .Dave failed to get Craig or a proven Closer and it all is unraveling.No one is shocked by this though we are more shocked when we hold on to a save at this point .To compete seriously for a championship the Redsox must have a proven Closer maybe another bat .

 

 

Only 3 of those 15 were in the ninth inning. Having a closer wouldn’t make this big of a difference...

[moonslav59]

Only 3 of those 15 were in the ninth inning. Having a closer wouldn’t make this big of a difference...

 

Except to bump everyone down a notch and drop our horrendous 7th-8th RP from the 25 man roster.

 

(I'd like to see us get 2 solid RP'ers.)

 

[Slasher9]

Bringing shawaryn out for a second inning was negligence...it doesn’t matter that everyone else imploded.

[vegasbob]

Bringing shawaryn out for a second inning was negligence...it doesn’t matter that everyone else imploded.

 

Didn't see the action, so don't know all the circumstances but suspect you are substantially correct.

[illinoisredsox]

Bringing shawaryn out for a second inning was negligence...it doesn’t matter that everyone else imploded.

 

Didn't see the action, so don't know all the circumstances but suspect you are substantially correct.

 

Slash, that is a reaction made with total 20-20 hindsight.

 

Sharawyn set the Jays down in order in the 6th on 13 pitches, striking out 2. He got the first out in the 7th before giving up a hit and then a homer in the span of 4 pitches. The second homer came 5 pitches later.

 

Going into this afternoon he had pitched 2 or more innings 4 times this year for Boston, giving up a grand total of 1 run in those appearances. Further, he was a starter at Pawtucket. There was no reason in the world to think he couldn’t go 2 innings.

 

And unlike his successors, at least he made them hit the damn ball.

[Swiharts Ghost]

Only 3 of those 15 were in the ninth inning. Having a closer wouldn’t make this big of a difference...

 

15 blown saves is disgusting

[Slasher9]

Slash, that is a reaction made with total 20-20 hindsight.

 

Sharawyn set the Jays down in order in the 6th on 13 pitches, striking out 2. He got the first out in the 7th before giving up a hit and then a homer in the span of 4 pitches. The second homer came 5 pitches later.

 

Going into this afternoon he had pitched 2 or more innings 4 times this year for Boston, giving up a grand total of 1 run in those appearances. Further, he was a starter at Pawtucket. There was no reason in the world to think he couldn’t go 2 innings.

 

And unlike his successors, at least he made them hit the damn ball.

 

Fair points. I withdraw my “negligence” comment

[moonslav59]

Updated tally after today's loss to the pen:

 

Starters 16-22 (-6)

 

Relievers 25-14 (+11)

 

[oldtimer]

Updated tally after today's loss to the pen:

 

Starters 16-22 (-6)

 

Relievers 25-14 (+11)

 

 

It's hard to ignore a horrendous loss to a so-so team. The relief pitching gave up 7 runs in 3 innings. Barnes has had his problems before as well. He has the physical capability to be effective and often is, but he also gets rattled and can completely lose it. We just don't have a reliable pen and I am all for at least one additional solid reliever. I don't see how we can get two, but two would be better.

[Elktonnick]

It's hard to ignore a horrendous loss to a so-so team. The relief pitching gave up 7 runs in 3 innings. Barnes has had his problems before as well. He has the physical capability to be effective and often is, but he also gets rattled and can completely lose it. We just don't have a reliable pen and I am all for at least one additional solid reliever. I don't see how we can get two, but two would be better.

 

I certainly agree with the comment that Barnes gets rattled. As Yogi Berra famously put it "Ninety percent of this game is half mental" When he does it goes rather quickly.

[OH FOY]

Lets spot the World Champions a 6 run lead in their Home Ballpark, be the 3rd worst team in all of baseball, fight them for 9 innings, and beat them...in their place.

That's what really is disturbing.

I give credit to the Blue Jays.

Edited June 23, 2019 by OH FOY!

[Bellhorn04]

Well, that did it for me. I will no longer defend Dombrowski's offseason work on the pen. It was negligent. dgalehouse was right. notin was right.