The Pen

[moonslav59]

In 2018, Kimbrel had 42 saves and 5 BS.

 

What we may not know is this...

 

He had a loss in the 10th by letting up 1 run in 0.1 of a tie game (No blown save but got the loss).

 

He got a win by pitching 1.1 IP letting up 3 hits.

 

He got a save despite letting up 1 ER in 1 IP.

 

He got another save letting up 2H and a BB in 1 IP.

 

He got another save letting up 1 ER in 1 IP.

 

No BS or win in a 6-4 win letting up 2 ER in the 9th.

 

Got a save despite letting up 1 ER in 1 IP (5-3 win)

 

No BS or win in a 4-1 Sox win but he let up 1 ER on 2H and 2 BB in the 9th.

 

Another save in a 6-4 win despite letting up 1 ER in the 9th

 

Got a win after blowing a save ( 1 IP 1 ER) when the Sox won the game in the bottom of the 9th.

 

Then, the playoff miracles of avoiding BS after BS despite throwing gas on several fires.

 

[Bellhorn04]

You can literally see Cora struggling with this assortment of pen arms. Why do you think he tries to squeeze every last out from his starters?

 

Part of the reason he tries to squeeze every last out from his starters is that the starters in general have not been going deep enough and the relievers are pitching too many innings.

[jung]

Part of the reason he tries to squeeze every last out from his starters is that the starters in general have not been going deep enough and the relievers are pitching too many innings.

 

Are anybody's starters with any regularity? If they want starters to go deeper into games they need to stop congratulating them and paying them off for what is s*** starter work. I said it the day it was invented, the "Quality Start" was invented for Agents by stat-geeks. But of course what I want is not the direction the powers that be in MLB want to take. They want it to be a power game from the batters box and from the mound and they don't give a damn about how much actual baseball is lost in the process. Hence we now have the "give me all you have for as long as you can" perspective on Starting pitching. Its a lousy idea, always was a lousy idea and we fans have simply fallen in line, trance like and have adopted this whole "quality start" nonsense.

 

There is so much stuff MLB should STOP doing IMMEDIATELY it hurts. Stop messing around with the baseball itself for one thing. Stop a process that compels teams to stuff their rosters with relief pitchers so teams actually have a bench again for another thing.

Edited June 25, 2019 by jung

[moonslav59]

Part of the reason he tries to squeeze every last out from his starters is that the starters in general have not been going deep enough and the relievers are pitching too many innings.

 

Maybe this strategy will pay off in August, September and the playoffs as our starters should be more rested than other playoff teams, and if we acquire 1-2 solid RP'ers, then the early overuse of the pen may not be a factor later in the year.

 

We're almost at the half way point, and many of the pen innings pitched are by scrubs who should not be on any playoff roster. Let's look at IP by our likely (or possible) playoff relief pitchers as compared to 2018.

 

2018 IP RP'er 2019 IP x 2

99 Johnson 28 (14 x 2)

85 Velazquez 88

62 Barnes 66

60 Hembree 58 (On IL now)

54 Wright 0 (Suspended in 2019)

41 Workman 72

34 Brasier 63 (Only played 1/2 season in 2018)

15 Walden 84 (Was only on the team a short time in '18)

 

Workman and Barnes are on pace for more IP than 2018, but 66 and 72 IP are not out of the norm. Hembree was on pace for many more IP but got hurt. Walden is on pace for 84- kinda high. Wright could come to the rescue.

[notin]

Part of the reason he tries to squeeze every last out from his starters is that the starters in general have not been going deep enough and the relievers are pitching too many innings.

 

The prevailing strategy, partially likely driven by economics, is to use bullpens for more innings. Good starters cost outrageous money. But it’s become a bullpen game. The Sox bullpen just isn’t that good. They do have their nights where they’re outstanding. But in the big picture, they lost two of their better relievers from last year, replaced them with no one, and don’t have much depth to absorb injuries. And they also appear to have paced an exorbitant amount of faith in Brasier despite a very limited track record.

 

Maybe Steven Wright can provide some help. But the Sox could certainly use another reliever regardless...

[jung]

Maybe this strategy will pay off in August, September and the playoffs as our starters should be more rested than other playoff teams, and if we acquire 1-2 solid RP'ers, then the early overuse of the pen may not be a factor later in the year.

 

We're almost at the half way point, and many of the pen innings pitched are by scrubs who should not be on any playoff roster. Let's look at IP by our likely (or possible) playoff relief pitchers as compared to 2018.

 

2018 IP RP'er 2019 IP x 2

99 Johnson 28 (14 x 2)

85 Velazquez 88

62 Barnes 66

60 Hembree 58 (On IL now)

54 Wright 0 (Suspended in 2019)

41 Workman 72

34 Brasier 63 (Only played 1/2 season in 2018)

15 Walden 84 (Was only on the team a short time in '18)

 

Workman and Barnes are on pace for more IP than 2018, but 66 and 72 IP are not out of the norm. Hembree was on pace for many more IP but got hurt. Walden is on pace for 84- kinda high. Wright could come to the rescue.

 

 

That is of course the other issue. I have Walden slated to move to some higher leverage work IF HE SURVIVES THIS and DJ goes back to the pen. Hembree didn't. Neck-tat didn't.

 

I have not been a buyer on the entire direction MLB has gone in and simply don't buy that the economics force fed the shortening of starting stints. We kept paying them more and more money for crappy starts and even invented stats designed to redefine crap as ice cream. WHAT DID WE EXPECT TO HAPPEN?

 

You just cannot convince me that MLB has not been trying to turn this into a power game both from the batter's box and mound and they don't really give a rats behind about anything else.

Edited June 25, 2019 by jung

[illinoisredsox]

IMO, Cora's dilemma (outside of not preparing his rotation to pitch at the actual start of the regular season) is that his pen is made up of niche players. Guys that he really cannot get out of a very narrow comfort zone for them. This is particularly true now that Neck-Tat is up on the shelf.

 

Of those particular niches that each of them can fill, not one of them is a closer. Chose Brasier for the job. I think the Brasier experiment is about done. If we work from back to front, probably the best guy they have to close now is Work. Not saying I have a great deal of confidence in Work in that role. But what else are they gonna' do. Barnes is the fireman and the only fireman I have any real faith in at all. So he should be used when the fireman needs to be employed. That said, Barnes IMO has been exposed as significantly less effective on the second day if used two days in a row....in other words, another niche bull pen arm.

 

Walden I suspect is the only guy they have that can actually go more than 1 inning in a stint. So he gets those assignments IMO. Unless it is a real raging fire that you need Barnes to put out, I suspect Walden is best used now as the guy that replaces the Starter. Taylor is really their best LH BP arm at this point. So you really do have to use him in that role. The rest of them are just a basket of whatever and you really have to use them to spare the guys you can at least say can fill some identifiable BP function. So Cora is stuck trying to fit in the rest. Can I get a 7th inning out of Brasier? Can I get anything out of Brewer or Shawaryn. Once BJ moves back to the pen, Walden can probably try some additional high leverage situations. Hembree probably outright replaces somebody when he comes back.

 

You can literally see Cora struggling with this assortment of pen arms. Why do you think he tries to squeeze every last out from his starters?

 

Sharawyn should be able to and has gone multiple innings. He did so his first 4 outings with Boston, going 2 or more each time and giving up a total of 1 run. Plus he was a starter at Pawtucket. I have a lot more faith in him than I do Velazquez, who always seems to be doing a Houdini act.

Edited June 25, 2019 by illinoisredsox

[jung]

Sharawyn should be able to and has gone multiple innings. He did so his first 4 outings with Boston, going 2 or more each time and giving up a total of 1 run. Plus he was a starter at Pawtucket. I have a lot more faith in him than I do Velazquez, who always seems to be doing a Houdini act.

 

I don't know what to think about that. Cora used him there early and has not used him in that role since. Not sure why. I suppose he could do it. I would rather Cora send him back to that role than the way Cora has used him since. Appears Cora has dropped him into the "basket of bull pen whatever" category and is just inserting him because he is there, sort of his time in the barrel.

[Slasher9]

Part of the reason he tries to squeeze every last out from his starters is that the starters in general have not been going deep enough and the relievers are pitching too many innings.

 

except Price and Johnson. i guess the other 3? he certainly had no one ready last night when Erod turned into a pumpkin in the 7th inning....

[Bellhorn04]

except Price and Johnson. i guess the other 3? he certainly had no one ready last night when Erod turned into a pumpkin in the 7th inning....

 

E-Rod was replaced after a walk, intentional walk and single. It's not like he was getting whacked around.

[Slasher9]

E-Rod was replaced after a walk, intentional walk and single. It's not like he was getting whacked around.

 

fair point. perhaps "pumpkin" was too harsh. but in such a close game, E-rod closing in on 100 pitches in the 7th inning should have Klaxons going off. the hook should have come after the first ball 4....

[Maxbialystock]

Are anybody's starters with any regularity? If they want starters to go deeper into games they need to stop congratulating them and paying them off for what is s*** starter work. I said it the day it was invented, the "Quality Start" was invented for Agents by stat-geeks. But of course what I want is not the direction the powers that be in MLB want to take. They want it to be a power game from the batters box and from the mound and they don't give a damn about how much actual baseball is lost in the process. Hence we now have the "give me all you have for as long as you can" perspective on Starting pitching. Its a lousy idea, always was a lousy idea and we fans have simply fallen in line, trance like and have adopted this whole "quality start" nonsense.

 

There is so much stuff MLB should STOP doing IMMEDIATELY it hurts. Stop messing around with the baseball itself for one thing. Stop a process that compels teams to stuff their rosters with relief pitchers so teams actually have a bench again for another thing.

 

Whoa, there, pard. The quality start, 6 innings, 3 or fewer earned runs, was created by a sportswriter in 1985. It's not an official stat and can be used or not. Like WAR and other stats. What has helped the quality start stat to stay alive is that you can also show a stat on the percentage of starts that are quality starts. Kershaw, for example, gets 71%, Tom Seaver 70.2% Price 68%, Bob Gibson 68%, Randy Johnson 67%.

 

This season so far: Verlander has 14/17 quality starts, Greinke 13/17, Scherzer 13/16, Ryu 13/15, and Berrios 13/16. Chris Sale is 9/16, Porcello 8/16, Price 6/13, and ERod 6/16.

 

The stats guys are telling front offices and managers that pitchers get hit harder and harder as the number of times they go thru the lineup increases. By the third and fourth time, most of them are at risk of a big rally, especially if their command starts to crumble. So 6 innings kind of makes sense.

 

Thus too the value of a great bullpen--like the Yankees currently have. Their ace, Tanaka, is 9/16.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Maxbialystock

[jung]

fair point. perhaps "pumpkin" was too harsh. but in such a close game, E-rod closing in on 100 pitches in the 7th inning should have Klaxons going off. the hook should have come after the first ball 4....

 

Yea I am completely convinced that Erod is on his way to his best season ever...Again that might not be saying much and really that is due to his Change and not because he can even at this stage throw 3 different pitches in a given start, but there it is. But oh by the way, Erod....EROD of all people is on his way to being the only Sox Starter that might just exceed the league average for innings per start for Starters all in, meaning including the big dick, fat cat guys getting a zillion $$ a year to pitch.

 

And:

Finally there is the rub in this absurd game that MLB/Manfred is inventing. Here MLB's TV demo is staggering for the average age in the numbers with the 18-49 demo pulling 1.7 as a number and the 65+ pulling a 9.7 meaning of course that within a total number of 6.6, 5x the households watching are 65+....barely awake in front of their TV's at 11:00 at night. This is apparently one of the really neat side effects of this "power game" that actually the older crowd of which I am a member has little to no respect for. The games take FOREVER. No wonder only the truly dedicated (like people willing to post at a baseball team forum) can really tolerate this stuff.

 

"Well yea, I can throw 95+ if I get to scratch my balls, tug my shirt, take a deep breath, palm the ball in my glove, scratch around in the dirt around the rubber and muse about a few different pitch choices before making one" and "oh yea, I can hit this juiced up baseball 8 miles if I can ....scratch my balls, tug my shirt, take a deep breath, adjust all the crap I wear to the plate, step in and step out and scratch around in the dirt first".

 

This s*** does however give the 3rd basemen the time to run over to second base or shortstop and then a pitch later run back again, another fabulous aspect of this modern version of the game. And then comes the army of relief pitchers and all the time it takes to accommodate them.

 

Now get a hitter to ground into a DP or even ground into an out and earn some outs without having to K a guy....NO, SORRY, we can't do that! Even if we could the team in the field behind us will screw up the play as they regularly don't know how to.... make the play, how many outs there are, where to throw the ball or how to catch it!

Edited June 25, 2019 by jung

[YastrzemskI]

Another sting bomb from our pen today.. that frankly, stinks like a bad fart. I'm looking at YOU: MATT ASSWIPE

We need two arms.. TWO. Not one. One would be a cheap band aid. We need a sleeve. Got that DD??? GET. IT. DONE.

[oldtimer]

Another sting bomb from our pen today.. that frankly, stinks like a bad fart. I'm looking at YOU: MATT ASSWIPE

We need two arms.. TWO. Not one. One would be a cheap band aid. We need a sleeve. Got that DD??? GET. IT. DONE.

 

Knuckleballers can pitch more than one inning. barnes is going through a tough period.

[dannycater]

Cora wanted Wright to have a successful outing and he did. Barnes is not a closer. It's too much for non-closers to become closers. Pen is in shambles for most part.

[MADSTORK]

Yea I am completely convinced that Erod is on his way to his best season ever...Again that might not be saying much and really that is due to his Change and not because he can even at this stage throw 3 different pitches in a given start...

 

 

50 Earned Runs in 92 IP

I would hate to see a bad year

 

ERod is the chip to deal to restock the farm system Arb eligible next 2 years and a modest 4 million plus salary

 

Bullpen thread takes a beating today by the great Matt Barnes who at best is a setup reliever

 

Cash strapped is a beautiful thing Thanks Ben Tom Larry

[dgalehouse]

Overheard conversation at the Cask N' Flagon bar . Jimmy Spintime : " I can't understand why we are 10 games behind the Yankees . We have basically the same team as last year , except for Kelly and Kimbrel ." Tommy Lykitis : " Well , Kimbrel did have 42 saves last year ." Jimmy Spintime : " Saves are overrated . Why , our bullpen has been our strength this year ." Tommy Lykitis : " Are you serious , Jimmy ? The pen has 16 blown saves . That's about the same number of saves that they have . How the hell is that a strength ? " Jimmy : " Blown saves are meaningless . A bad and misleading stat . " Tommy : " You have got to be kidding me ." Jimmy : " No , I mean it . The pen is fine .The starters have been the problem . Why, if Sale pitched seven scoreless today , we win the game easy ." Tommy : " Jimmy , I think you are losing touch with reality " Jimmy : " No Tommy . Here look. I have a whole page of stats that proves I am right . Check it out ." Tommy: " No thanks . Joe , give me another beer. Skip Jimmy this time . "

[Bellhorn04]

That's 4 late inning leads coughed up in 17 days (June 10, 18, 22 and 26).

[OH FOY]

That's 4 late inning leads coughed up in 17 days (June 10, 18, 22 and 26).

 

Geez. Cant do that.

[YastrzemskI]

Overheard conversation at the Cask N' Flagon bar . Jimmy Spintime : " I can't understand why we are 10 games behind the Yankees . We have basically the same team as last year , except for Kelly and Kimbrel ." Tommy Lykitis : " Well , Kimbrel did have 42 saves last year ." Jimmy Spintime : " Saves are overrated . Why , our bullpen has been our strength this year ." Tommy Lykitis : " Are you serious , Jimmy ? The pen has 16 blown saves . That's about the same number of saves that they have . How the hell is that a strength ? " Jimmy : " Blown saves are meaningless . A bad and misleading stat . " Tommy : " You have got to be kidding me ." Jimmy : " No , I mean it . The pen is fine .The starters have been the problem . Why, if Sale pitched seven scoreless today , we win the game easy ." Tommy : " Jimmy , I think you are losing touch with reality " Jimmy : " No Tommy . Here look. I have a whole page of stats that proves I am right . Check it out ." Tommy: " No thanks . Joe , give me another beer. Skip Jimmy this time . "

 

Gunna have to call bs on this one.

[dgalehouse]

Gunna have to call bs on this one.

 

Why ?

[YastrzemskI]

Why ?

 

I cannot comprehend how anyone could disagree that the BP is this team's biggest weakness. 16 blown saves thru 82 games is pitiful.

 

PS- I visited Fenway this season from the west coast. The calamari at Cask N' Flagon is some of the best I ever had. Chowder is great too. Just sayin'.

[dgalehouse]

I cannot comprehend how anyone could disagree that the BP is this team's biggest weakness. 16 blown saves thru 82 games is pitiful.

 

PS- I visited Fenway this season from the west coast. The calamari at Cask N' Flagon is some of the best I ever had. Chowder is great too. Just sayin'.

 

Yaz , It was strictly sarcasm . Sorry you missed it . I absolutely think the bullpen is a weakness . When you have as many blown saves as you have saves , it means you are having a lot of trouble holding late leads and closing out winnable games . Not a good situation at all . And the Cask 'N Flagon is a must for any Sox fan.

[YastrzemskI]

Yaz , It was strictly sarcasm . Sorry you missed it . I absolutely think the bullpen is a weakness . When you have as many blown saves as you have saves , it means you are having a lot of trouble holding late leads and closing out winnable games . Not a good situation at all . And the Cask 'N Flagon is a must for any Sox fan.

 

Ha! I flat out missed it.. ((hangs head in shame)) Cora was interviewed after today's loss and I have to say that this was the first time that you could hear some anxiety and urgency in his responses.

[SCM33]

I cannot comprehend how anyone could disagree that the BP is this team's biggest weakness. 16 blown saves thru 82 games is pitiful.

 

PS- I visited Fenway this season from the west coast. The calamari at Cask N' Flagon is some of the best I ever had. Chowder is great too. Just sayin'.

 

I’ve been fighting with people all year about it. They truly are brutal. Barnes has fallen back to his middle-of-the road self. Actually, he may be worse than his normal self, lately anyways.

[notin]

I’ve been fighting with people all year about it. They truly are brutal. Barnes has fallen back to his middle-of-the road self. Actually, he may be worse than his normal self, lately anyways.

 

 

Actually this was his first blown save in the ninth inning this year. And he does have the disadvantage of almost always facing the better hitters on the other team. It’s not an easy job...

[notin]

Overheard conversation at the Cask N' Flagon bar . Jimmy Spintime : " I can't understand why we are 10 games behind the Yankees . We have basically the same team as last year , except for Kelly and Kimbrel ." Tommy Lykitis : " Well , Kimbrel did have 42 saves last year ." Jimmy Spintime : " Saves are overrated . Why , our bullpen has been our strength this year ." Tommy Lykitis : " Are you serious , Jimmy ? The pen has 16 blown saves . That's about the same number of saves that they have . How the hell is that a strength ? " Jimmy : " Blown saves are meaningless . A bad and misleading stat . " Tommy : " You have got to be kidding me ." Jimmy : " No , I mean it . The pen is fine .The starters have been the problem . Why, if Sale pitched seven scoreless today , we win the game easy ." Tommy : " Jimmy , I think you are losing touch with reality " Jimmy : " No Tommy . Here look. I have a whole page of stats that proves I am right . Check it out ." Tommy: " No thanks . Joe , give me another beer. Skip Jimmy this time . "

 

 

Saves aren’t the problem. Lack of good relief pitching is the issue.

 

The Sox expected Brasier to be a quality late inning arm after 30 IP in the past 5 years. Brasier was the fourth man in the pen even at the end of last year. This year? First or second? Bad idea...

[SCM33]

Actually this was his first blown save in the ninth inning this year. And he does have the disadvantage of almost always facing the better hitters on the other team. It’s not an easy job...

 

wow, the excuses are incredible. Good pitchers get good hitters out. It’s that simple. He was a nice little story earlier this year, but he’s been terrible and his numbers are starting to reflect it.

 

Barnes is a very effective pitcher when used in non pressure situations.

Edited June 26, 2019 by SCM33

[notin]

wow, the excuses are incredible. Good pitchers get good hitters out. It’s that simple. He was a nice little story earlier this year, but he’s been terrible and his numbers are starting to reflect it.

 

Right. And all hitters are equal...