The Pen

[SCM33]

Right. And all hitters are equal...

 

Strawman, classic sign of a lost argument.

[dgalehouse]

I'm not killing Matt Barnes . He probably has the best arm / stuff in the bullpen. The problem is the lack of a real closer . Having a closer would take a lot of heat off the other relievers and help to solidify the bullpen in general .

[jacksonianmarch]

I'm not killing Matt Barnes . He probably has the best arm / stuff in the bullpen. The problem is the lack of a real closer . Having a closer would take a lot of heat off the other relievers and help to solidify the bullpen in general .

 

I remember saying this exact same thing in the winter. Funny?

[jung]

I'm not killing Matt Barnes . He probably has the best arm / stuff in the bullpen. The problem is the lack of a real closer . Having a closer would take a lot of heat off the other relievers and help to solidify the bullpen in general .

 

No question about it....you can tolerate a good deal of to and fro in the short stokes between the starter and the closer, but if you can't close out games, if you are giving up leads and thus games or being forced to extras because you have nobody really able to stand the heat of the 9th inning, you're just asking for it.

 

I am not real sure I favor this whole idea of calling failures ahead of the 9th inning "blown saves". All we are going to do is end up convincing ourselves that the 7th and 8th innings are just like the 9th. They aren't and thats the point. Teams try to get Starters our of games and get to their pens. Heck if the Red Sox could not get to pens, we would barely score at all regardless of all the noise and hoopla about our runs scoring offense blah...blah...blah.

 

Given that we have IMO already screwed the hooch in having anointed Starters as being worth millions of $$ to pitch 6 innings at best, Managers should be expected to stitch together the means to get to the 9th inning. Their offenses should be able to beat the other team's pen and get to the 9th inning with a lead and then have a Closer capable of standing the 9th inning heat. That is the game as it is played today. It at least partially resembles the game I grew up with that had starters pitching regularly into the 7th and 8th if not completing games, bullpens not being this veritable army of arms and of course then bench compliments that actually allow the game to be played as it should.

 

If we make this next transition that will result from this saves and blown saves nonsense ahead of the 9th ninth inning this game is just going to devolve farther until it is no longer recognizable as baseball. The Stat-geeks are entirely out of control IMO. I wonder how many of them actually ever played this game.

[dgalehouse]

No question about it....you can tolerate a good deal of to and fro in the short stokes between the starter and the closer, but if you can't close out games, if you are giving up leads and thus games or being forced to extras because you have nobody really able to stand the heat of the 9th inning, you're just asking for it.

 

I am not real sure I favor this whole idea of calling failures ahead of the 9th inning "blown saves". All we are going to do is end up convincing ourselves that the 7th and 8th innings are just like the 9th. They aren't and thats the point. Teams try to get Starters our of games and get to their pens. Heck if the Red Sox could not get to pens, we would barely score at all regardless of all the noise and hoopla about our runs scoring offense blah...blah...blah.

 

Given that we have IMO already screwed the hooch in having anointed Starters as being worth millions of $$ to pitch 6 innings at best, Managers should be expected to stitch together the means to get to the 9th inning. Their offenses should be able to beat the other team's pen and get to the 9th inning with a lead and then have a Closer capable of standing the 9th inning heat. That is the game as it is played today. It at least partially resembles the game I grew up with that had starters pitching regularly into the 7th and 8th if not completing games, bullpens not being this veritable army of arms and of course then bench compliments that actually allow the game to be played as it should.

 

If we make this next transition that will result from this saves and blown saves nonsense ahead of the 9th ninth inning this game is just going to devolve farther until it is no longer recognizable as baseball. The Stat-geeks are entirely out of control IMO. I wonder how many of them actually ever played this game.

 

You can call it a save , hold , blown save , blown hold or whatever you want . But you still need your bullpen to hold on to a late lead and close it out . The starters are not going deep in games very often these days . The bullpen is vital.

[jung]

You can call it a save , hold , blown save , blown hold or whatever you want . But you still need your bullpen to hold on to a late lead and close it out . The starters are not going deep in games very often these days . The bullpen is vital.

 

Actually CALLING them anything is another version of the same scam that calls 6 innings at some number of runs a "quality start". Its just more crap invented by stat-geeks for agents to justify salaries. "Why my player had 10 quality starts last year. That should be worth at least $2M per for a $20M annual salary."We have already blown up the salaries of Closers. Lets blow up the salaries of the entire pen.Why not....not that anybody realizes that 80% of the actual audience for these things is made up of 65+ year olds like me. Once we die off, then what?

 

Honestly the amount that the powers that be in MLB and the stat-geeks are artificially manipulating this game is just ridiculous.

Edited June 27, 2019 by jung

[FredLynn]

Overheard conversation at the Cask N' Flagon bar . Jimmy Spintime : " I can't understand why we are 10 games behind the Yankees . We have basically the same team as last year , except for Kelly and Kimbrel ." Tommy Lykitis : " Well , Kimbrel did have 42 saves last year ." Jimmy Spintime : " Saves are overrated . Why , our bullpen has been our strength this year ." Tommy Lykitis : " Are you serious , Jimmy ? The pen has 16 blown saves . That's about the same number of saves that they have . How the hell is that a strength ? " Jimmy : " Blown saves are meaningless . A bad and misleading stat . " Tommy : " You have got to be kidding me ." Jimmy : " No , I mean it . The pen is fine .The starters have been the problem . Why, if Sale pitched seven scoreless today , we win the game easy ." Tommy : " Jimmy , I think you are losing touch with reality " Jimmy : " No Tommy . Here look. I have a whole page of stats that proves I am right . Check it out ." Tommy: " No thanks . Joe , give me another beer. Skip Jimmy this time . "

 

Yup. Only the Mets have more blown saves in all of MLB with 18. Had we just held on to half of them we would be in contention for first place instead of trailing the WC race to two three teams. If we do not get a reliable closer we will not be playing baseball in October. Take that to the bank.

[moonslav59]

Yup. Only the Mets have more blown saves in all of MLB with 18. Had we just held on to half of them we would be in contention for first place instead of trailing the WC race to two three teams. If we do not get a reliable closer we will not be playing baseball in October. Take that to the bank.

 

We've only lost 8 games with blown saves in them. Half of that would be 4 games.

[jacksonianmarch]

As anyone can imagine, I really enjoy being proven right.

 

Kimbrel was a lock down closer. He stumbled late last year, but he was elite level for almost the entire year. You knew about 90% of the time that he was gonna lock it down. You lost him. Kelly was hit or miss, but when he was on, he was lights out. Not re-signing those guys isn’t the sin here. Not replacing them is. We all know Barnes isn’t a closer. Wicked stuff, high K rates, folds in the 9th. Reminds me of Betances, the guy just cannot close. Brasier was a flash in the pan as a dominant reliever, but his peripherals pointed to a big regression. Nobody here wanted to see that. There was a reason why he was in the Japanese minors. Workman has earned a bigger role, but he’s walking 6 per 9. You cannot have a closer without elite stuff who walks guys at that rate. Your pen pushed quality middle relief options into setup and closers roles and you’re being burned. You’ve got a month til the deadline. Prices now are gonna be high beyond salary dumps and they’ll drop closer to the deadline. You’re probably gonna have to hope your underwater pen can hold out for another month, but my bet is, it won’t. And I love it

[a700hitter]

As anyone can imagine, I really enjoy being proven right.

 

Kimbrel was a lock down closer. He stumbled late last year, but he was elite level for almost the entire year. You knew about 90% of the time that he was gonna lock it down. You lost him. Kelly was hit or miss, but when he was on, he was lights out. Not re-signing those guys isn’t the sin here. Not replacing them is. We all know Barnes isn’t a closer. Wicked stuff, high K rates, folds in the 9th. Reminds me of Betances, the guy just cannot close. Brasier was a flash in the pan as a dominant reliever, but his peripherals pointed to a big regression. Nobody here wanted to see that. There was a reason why he was in the Japanese minors. Workman has earned a bigger role, but he’s walking 6 per 9. You cannot have a closer without elite stuff who walks guys at that rate. Your pen pushed quality middle relief options into setup and closers roles and you’re being burned. You’ve got a month til the deadline. Prices now are gonna be high beyond salary dumps and they’ll drop closer to the deadline. You’re probably gonna have to hope your underwater pen can hold out for another month, but my bet is, it won’t. And I love it

Not only was Kimbrel a lock down closer, but he may be the best closer of his generation. So much for the stupidity of thinking that closers are over valued. A huge component of the Yankees post season streak was Mo Rivera. That consistency was a huge factor for them making the playoffs so often.

[Jason33]

Barnes, Braiser, Hembree, Walden are not the closer solution. We need to go after a decent closer on a crappy team. Maybe Diaz on the Mets or Hand on the Guardians. Although I’m sure Hand would cost a lot in prospects. Not sure about Diaz.

[OH FOY]

Lets say 4 for argument sake, the Sox record would be 48-34. They would be 6 behind the Yanks in the loss column, instead of 10, 6 GB's, and would be 2 up leading the WC.

That's how important a single game is.

When you have the lead, it is huge to finish it, and win it.

Also being 6 behind in the loss column, going into this weekend, it is still not imperative, to sweep it, you get by with a split. Sox now need to gain ground on the Yanks, even though it will be in only June 29th, and 30th.

Sox now cannot be swept. Split is not too much to be happy about, all it amounts to is 2 more games off of the schedule. 2 games less to gain ground.

Less games to play in the season, even MORE important to win them when you have the lead.

Only 80 games left, sounds like a lot, but it isn't.

Edited June 27, 2019 by OH FOY!

[jacksonianmarch]

Both teams are away in a foreign environment on a foreign field in a foreign time zone. The Yanks are throwing their ace (Tanaka) in one game and the Sox are throwing their Yankee cryptonite (Porcello) in the other. I called a split a few days ago and I’m doubling down on it.

[OH FOY]

Its a win for you, then. That's the benefit of leading, at this point, time is on your side, unless, you have a meltdown.

[Bellhorn04]

Both teams are away in a foreign environment on a foreign field in a foreign time zone. The Yanks are throwing their ace (Tanaka) in one game and the Sox are throwing their Yankee cryptonite (Porcello) in the other. I called a split a few days ago and I’m doubling down on it.

 

You have a 50% chance of being right.

[Bellhorn04]

We've only lost 8 games with blown saves in them. Half of that would be 4 games.

 

8 losses with blown saves is a pretty large number at the halfway point.

 

And 4 of them since June 10 is just horrific.

[OH FOY]

That's 4 late inning leads coughed up in 17 days (June 10, 18, 22 and 26).

 

Yanks won 3 of those games, with 1 rainout. That's huge. Almost like giving the Division away to the Yanks.

Edited June 27, 2019 by OH FOY!

[notin]

Yup. Only the Mets have more blown saves in all of MLB with 18. Had we just held on to half of them we would be in contention for first place instead of trailing the WC race to two three teams. If we do not get a reliable closer we will not be playing baseball in October. Take that to the bank.

 

 

And the Mets added two “proven closers” this off-season in Diaz and Familia. Three of you count Justin Wilson.

 

Barnes isn’t the issue. He’s had 4 ninth inning ave attempts and converted three. But in all 4, he’s started the inning facing the one of the top 3 hitters from the other team. Really, most of his appearances have been against the top of the order for the other team. He’s been given the rough innings.

 

The issue is, after him, there isn’t anything. Brasier hasn’t been good at all, especially as a closer. He blew a 2-run lead against Cleveland facing the bottom of their order and gave up home runs to two of the worst hitters in the AL. He gave up a walkoff home run to Nicky Delmonico (not quite the same as Jose Abreu), and overall seems to have been handed way too much responsibility in the bullpen.

 

 

Sure the Sox could get a dedicated closer who faced the top of the order 1/3 of the time and also the bottom 1/3 of the time (like Kimbrel did). But the biggest impact will be pushing Hembree/Brasier etc. down a notch on the depth chart.

 

But Dombrowski has been hesitant. How many MLB relievers has he added to this team since trading for Addison Reed? I guess two, if you count Corey Brewer and Erasmo Ramirez. His ignorance of the pen has been devastating.

 

Also, at some point, Marcus Walden is very likely to revert to being a pumpkin. I think the. Sox are well into this transformation already.

 

Not sure why DD doesn’t think so...

[Bellhorn04]

Barnes isn’t the issue.

 

Barnes has been dreadful in June.

[Bellhorn04]

DD blew it with the pen this offseason, there's no way around it.

 

The idea that we could bolster the pen at the deadline is nice, but being double digits behind in the division by the time we make that addition is not.

[notin]

Barnes has been dreadful in June.

 

 

It’s not easy when you get all the tough outings.

 

He may not be the best pitcher for the high leverage situations. Or maybe the Sox need TWO relievers they can count on in those type of outings...

[notin]

DD blew it with the pen this offseason, there's no way around it.

 

The idea that we could bolster the pen at the deadline is nice, but being double digits behind in the division by the time we make that addition is not.

 

 

Yes. He was completely foolish this off-season.

 

And followed it up by continuing to do nothing for the first half of the regular season...

[Bellhorn04]

Yes. He was completely foolish this off-season.

 

And followed it up by continuing to do nothing for the first half of the regular season...

 

Yep. Totally baffling. Especially given his history with damagingly weak bullpens.

[jacksonianmarch]

The first month of the season was on the manager. Cora decided to play April like it was still ST and his starters were not ready. They rebounded, now the pen is folding under their workload and under their tall expectations. That’s on DD. You’ve essentially got management failure at the end of your window. That shouldn’t have happened

[OH FOY]

Cashman knew the importance of the 7, 8, 9 innings. Stay close or get ahead, get to other teams BP, Finish it, or beat the other Teams BP, late. Almost every team has a weak BP, just not enough good arms to go around anymore.

Beat the snot out of the weak teams, and dogfight the good ones, and take your chances.

[notin]

Yep. Totally baffling. Especially given his history with damagingly weak bullpens.

 

 

His failure to learn from his mistakes is not encouraging.

 

At what point does he give Betts the Miguel Cabrera contract that runs through age 42 and hamstrings the payroll for more than half a decade?

[Slasher9]

As anyone can imagine, I really enjoy being proven right.

 

 

Lol.

It’s really not that complicated. Some would actually use the word “easy”.

Your predictions are either:

- pro Yankees

- negative Boston Red Sox

 

When the above is occurring (like right now for example) you think you are Nostradamus.

When the above doesn’t happen (see: last 3 ALE division titles, 2018 ALDS, 2018 parade) you look like a whiny bitch.

[OH FOY]

After leading after 7 innings, the Sox have lost 8 games, the rest of DIVISION, has lost 6. That includes the Orioles and Jays.

Remember this not about blown saves, its leading after SEVEN.

Most Starters today go 7 innings. 7 is their 9 now.

[moonslav59]

After leading after 7 innings, the Sox have lost 8 games, the rest of DIVISION, has lost 6. That includes the Orioles and Jays.

Remember this not about blown saves, its leading after SEVEN.

Most Starters today go 7 innings. 7 is their 9 now.

 

Most starters do not go 7. Six is more like it, and the average is about 5.

 

The O's and Jays rarely lead after 7, so that'sone reason they have less than us.i

 

8 losses after 7 is a big problem. We need a closer. We could probably use a closer and decent set up man as well.

 

While the pen blew yesterday's game, Sale actually did worse than the pen.

[notin]

Lol.

It’s really not that complicated. Some would actually use the word “easy”.

Your predictions are either:

- pro Yankees

- negative Boston Red Sox

 

When the above is occurring (like right now for example) you think you are Nostradamus.

When the above doesn’t happen (see: last 3 ALE division titles, 2018 ALDS, 2018 parade) you look like a whiny bitch.

 

 

I can give credit for at least making predictions. Many lack the intestinal fortitude to do so.

 

But until Clint Frazier becomes a perennial 30 HR hitter - or maybe, accomplishes the feat just one time - highlighting the correct predictions and proclaiming himself a prophet does leave him open to the outlandish pro-Yankee ones as well...