The Pen

[Slasher9]

It might means he’s still not 100%.

 

Getting more IP out of Price might have worked out better, but are you really arguing that the performance of the bullpen was the problem last night/this morning?

 

no. throw away the results of the bullpen. i am arguing that removing Price after 5 innings with only 73 pitches and 1 Earned Run was stupid.

whatever happened after that isnt my point. the fact of actually removing a "Ace" starter after 5ip / 73 pitches 5 days after he only threw 49 pitches is....negligent.

[Slasher9]

Last night was the 15th game in 14 days, which has taxed the bullpen, especially when Price went 1.1 innings in 1 start and Johnson 3 in another. So my thinking is that Cora had tons of reasons to leave Price in last night, but didn't for what can only be good reasons.

 

or because: WTF Cora?

[dgalehouse]

Taking Price out after 73 pitches was a head scratcher for sure . Maybe there is something wrong . The offense was the reason for the loss . No question about that . Overall , the bullpen was good . However , they twice had the opportunity to close the game out , but failed to do so both times .

[Maxbialystock]

Taking Price out after 73 pitches was a head scratcher for sure . Maybe there is something wrong . The offense was the reason for the loss . No question about that . Overall , the bullpen was good . However , they twice had the opportunity to close the game out , but failed to do so both times .

 

Cora's explanation on pulling Price was his belief that 73 pitches and 5 innings was enough, given what happened last time out and that Price needs to "be taken care of."

 

Price himself, when asked, said "It was tough. I wanted to be able to give us more. It wasn't on Alex. It wasn't on him."

[Maxbialystock]

or because: WTF Cora?

 

Cora's explanation on pulling Price was his belief that 73 pitches and 5 innings was enough, given what happened last time out and that Price needs to "be taken care of."

 

Price himself, when asked, said "It was tough. I wanted to be able to give us more. It wasn't on Alex. It wasn't on him."

[Maxbialystock]

no. throw away the results of the bullpen. i am arguing that removing Price after 5 innings with only 73 pitches and 1 Earned Run was stupid.

whatever happened after that isnt my point. the fact of actually removing a "Ace" starter after 5ip / 73 pitches 5 days after he only threw 49 pitches is....negligent.

 

Cora's explanation on pulling Price was his belief that 73 pitches and 5 innings was enough, given what happened last time out and that Price needs to "be taken care of."

 

Price himself, when asked, said "It was tough. I wanted to be able to give us more. It wasn't on Alex. It wasn't on him."

[notin]

Taking Price out after 73 pitches was a head scratcher for sure . Maybe there is something wrong . The offense was the reason for the loss . No question about that . Overall , the bullpen was good . However , they twice had the opportunity to close the game out , but failed to do so both times .

 

 

They did, but once was their best reliever this season and the other time was in the 13th inning with their 7th reliever of the game. I can’t fault the 7th relief pitcher used for not saving the game. If the Sox had Kimbrel or even Mariano Rivera in his prime, it’s not like they were going to save him for the 13th inning and use the rest of the bullpen in front of him.

 

The offense was the problem. They had plenty of opportunities to score and failed nearly every time...

[Bellhorn04]

You can say that again, Max.

[Slasher9]

Cora's explanation on pulling Price was his belief that 73 pitches and 5 innings was enough, given what happened last time out and that Price needs to "be taken care of."

 

Price himself, when asked, said "It was tough. I wanted to be able to give us more. It wasn't on Alex. It wasn't on him."

 

the above statements make me think that prices labia must have been hurting and pulled himself from the game??

the manager gets paid to make those tough decisions. this time it didnt work out. someone on this site likes to defend the manager at all costs but also says the manager should be judged solely on W & L's. those statements seem to contradict. especially this season.

[notin]

no. throw away the results of the bullpen. i am arguing that removing Price after 5 innings with only 73 pitches and 1 Earned Run was stupid.

whatever happened after that isnt my point. the fact of actually removing a "Ace" starter after 5ip / 73 pitches 5 days after he only threw 49 pitches is....negligent.

 

 

Unless there is something wrong with Price, even if it’s a mild issue.

 

I’m hoping Cora isn’t going to put insanely low pitch counts on Price and Sale the rest of the way. I’m hoping he isn’t that stupid. Because if that’s the case, this bullpen will be completely spent before the All Star break...

[Slasher9]

If the Sox had Kimbrel or even Mariano Rivera in his prime, it’s not like they were going to save him for the 13th inning and use the rest of the bullpen in front of him.

..

on the road...you might. never at home. but i wouldnt fault a manager for bringing in the closer in a tie game on the road in the 10th or 11th for sure.

[Slasher9]

Unless there is something wrong with Price, even if it’s a mild issue.

 

.

 

i am guessing this has to be it. otherwise it just doesnt make sense.

[notin]

on the road...you might. never at home. but i wouldnt fault a manager for bringing in the closer in a tie game on the road in the 10th or 11th for sure.

 

So when do you use him at home?

 

Once you go to extra innings, he can’t get a save. Once you take the lead, the game is over...

[Slasher9]

So when do you use him at home?

 

Once you go to extra innings, he can’t get a save. Once you take the lead, the game is over...

 

at home i definitely use him in the top of the 9th.

[Bellhorn04]

I’m hoping Cora isn’t going to put insanely low pitch counts on Price and Sale the rest of the way. I’m hoping he isn’t that stupid. Because if that’s the case, this bullpen will be completely spent before the All Star break...

 

I'm surprised you would even think that's a possibility.

 

Sale has been around 100-105 pitches every time out...

[notin]

i am guessing this has to be it. otherwise it just doesnt make sense.

 

 

Agreed. Otherwise I agree with you that it was stupid.

 

Even if he thought he could get more IP from his bullpen because of the job Porcello did the night before, that would be dumb. A couple nights off for the pen in mid-June is rarely a bad thing...

[notin]

O

I'm surprised you would even think that's a possibility.

 

Sale has been around 100-105 pitches every time out...

 

 

I know. As has Price (when not getting shelled early). But I’m reaching for the negative possibilities here. I don’t think he’s that stupid...

[notin]

at home i definitely use him in the top of the 9th.

 

Exactly. So before the Hector Velasquez-types. Which is why Velasquez blowing that save isn’t a reflection on the closer situation...

[dgalehouse]

Who knows what happened ? I would take a guess that Price asked , or at least hinted , to be taken out . Just a guess .

[dgalehouse]

They did, but once was their best reliever this season and the other time was in the 13th inning with their 7th reliever of the game. I can’t fault the 7th relief pitcher used for not saving the game. If the Sox had Kimbrel or even Mariano Rivera in his prime, it’s not like they were going to save him for the 13th inning and use the rest of the bullpen in front of him.

 

The offense was the problem. They had plenty of opportunities to score and failed nearly every time...

As a rule , a manager will use his closer at home , in a tie game in the ninth inning . On the road , they may take a different approach . I recall Buck Showalter , who normally managed a bullpen about as good as anyone , holding Zack Britton back for a possible save situation in a playoff game. Regrettably for Buck , that situation never happened , as the bullpen blew the game without Britton ever getting in . Buck was roundly lambasted for it .

[notin]

As a rule , a manager will use his closer at home , in a tie game in the ninth inning . On the road , they may take a different approach . I recall Buck Showalter , who normally managed a bullpen about as good as anyone , holding Zack Britton back for a possible save situation in a playoff game. Regrettably for Buck , that situation never happened , as the bullpen blew the game without Britton ever getting in . Buck was roundly lambasted for it .

 

As he should have been.

 

Showalter was managing for the save. But he needed to keep putting up 0’s on the bottom of the scoreboard, and lost the game because he wouldn’t use his pitcher most capable of putting up 0’s.

 

He managed for the save and it cost him the win...

[notin]

And Carson Smith got released.

 

His career has fizzled and might even be over...

[Bellhorn04]

As he should have been.

 

Showalter was managing for the save. But he needed to keep putting up 0’s on the bottom of the scoreboard, and lost the game because he wouldn’t use his pitcher most capable of putting up 0’s.

 

He managed for the save and it cost him the win...

 

May have cost him the win. Gotta be fair, even to Buck.

[Maxbialystock]

the above statements make me think that prices labia must have been hurting and pulled himself from the game??

the manager gets paid to make those tough decisions. this time it didnt work out. someone on this site likes to defend the manager at all costs but also says the manager should be judged solely on W & L's. those statements seem to contradict. especially this season.

 

What a crock--chastising Cora for not overruling his $30M/year starter and telling him he must pinch at least the 6th.

 

But it's also worth looking at what actually happened after Cora made what you think was the wrong decision. The next two guys, Sharwynn and Brasier pitched the 6th and 7th innings without giving a run. Why is that a terrible outcome from Cora's purportedly bad decision?

 

Now we're in the 8th and the Sox have a 2-1 lead, an out comes Workmanwith an ERA of 1.82, just a little over 1/2 of Price's 3.39 ERA. I'd say it is unarguable that up to the point Workman took the mound in the 8th--including the fact that Cora sent him--Cora has made nothing but the right moves. But it wasn't Workman's night, and he gave up the tying run. So now the game is tied and the next three guys--Barnes, Taylor, and Brewer--give up 0 runs in 4 innings. So at this point the bullpen has gone 7 innings and given up 1 run, and you insist Cora had no business taking Price out way back after the 5th when Price in fact asked to be taken out.

 

I gotta say that, based on the evidence of what actually happened in the game, it would be awfully difficult to convict Cora of malfeasance. In fact, the evidence suggests he made a series of excellent decisions.

 

As for the rest, yes, I do tend to defend managers because I think they know more than we do. But of course I have no idea about the impact of their personalities or management style have on the players overall performance, but honestly doubt that Cora's is undercutting overall team performance.

 

Ulimately, however, the manager is responsible for wins and losses because my experience says that's why they get fired. And sometimes even that can be a mistake. Francona was fired after 2011 and after managing the Sox to two WS wins in 2004 and 2007 and went on to become an excellent manager at Cleveland. Bobby V, granted, was a disaster and left after a year. Farrell came in as a known quantity--former Sox pitching coach--and immediately won the 2013 WS, had two losing seasons (last in the AL East, I think), and then 2 more when the Sox got to the ALDS and quickly lost both times. I defended Farrell a lot, but also agreed in his last season it was probably time for him to go. Enter Cora, who was carefully chosen. Huge success his first year. It's always the players who win championships, but it seemed as though he regularly made good decisions although I think I went ape over one of them--maybe leaving Wright in too long). So, yeah, right now I am very supportive this manager. I even like that he tries to do good things for Puerto Rico and I think lives there in the offseason.

[notin]

May have cost him the win. Gotta be fair, even to Buck.

 

 

Was there a possibility he didn’t lose that game?

 

Britton might have given up a run and list as well, but there is a difference between getting beaten with your best and getting beaten while taking half measures. And that difference was shown in the beating Showalter took afterwards...

[Slasher9]

when Price in fact asked to be taken out.

 

wait....when did this "fact" come out? do we have a quote from Cora and/or Price stating that price asked to be taken out?

[TylerD]

What a crock--chastising Cora for not overruling his $30M/year starter and telling him he must pinch at least the 6th.

 

But it's also worth looking at what actually happened after Cora made what you think was the wrong decision. The next two guys, Sharwynn and Brasier pitched the 6th and 7th innings without giving a run. Why is that a terrible outcome from Cora's purportedly bad decision?

 

Now we're in the 8th and the Sox have a 2-1 lead, an out comes Workmanwith an ERA of 1.82, just a little over 1/2 of Price's 3.39 ERA. I'd say it is unarguable that up to the point Workman took the mound in the 8th--including the fact that Cora sent him--Cora has made nothing but the right moves. But it wasn't Workman's night, and he gave up the tying run. So now the game is tied and the next three guys--Barnes, Taylor, and Brewer--give up 0 runs in 4 innings. So at this point the bullpen has gone 7 innings and given up 1 run, and you insist Cora had no business taking Price out way back after the 5th when Price in fact asked to be taken out.

 

I gotta say that, based on the evidence of what actually happened in the game, it would be awfully difficult to convict Cora of malfeasance. In fact, the evidence suggests he made a series of excellent decisions.

 

As for the rest, yes, I do tend to defend managers because I think they know more than we do. But of course I have no idea about the impact of their personalities or management style have on the players overall performance, but honestly doubt that Cora's is undercutting overall team performance.

 

Ulimately, however, the manager is responsible for wins and losses because my experience says that's why they get fired. And sometimes even that can be a mistake. Francona was fired after 2011 and after managing the Sox to two WS wins in 2004 and 2007 and went on to become an excellent manager at Cleveland. Bobby V, granted, was a disaster and left after a year. Farrell came in as a known quantity--former Sox pitching coach--and immediately won the 2013 WS, had two losing seasons (last in the AL East, I think), and then 2 more when the Sox got to the ALDS and quickly lost both times. I defended Farrell a lot, but also agreed in his last season it was probably time for him to go. Enter Cora, who was carefully chosen. Huge success his first year. It's always the players who win championships, but it seemed as though he regularly made good decisions although I think I went ape over one of them--maybe leaving Wright in too long). So, yeah, right now I am very supportive this manager. I even like that he tries to do good things for Puerto Rico and I think lives there in the offseason.

 

Well said Max.

 

Let me dummy down what Max said..... OUR f***ING BULLPEN WENT NEARLY 12 INNINGS AND GAVE UP 3 RUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Against the best offensive team in the league. That is NOT the wrong decision by Cora. Jesus....... How do some of you not see this. smh........

[Slasher9]

our starter went 5 innings and gave up only 1 run. 1.80 ERA

relievers 11.1 innings and gave up 3 runs. 2.38 ERA

1.80 > 2.38

Price > Relievers

how do some of you not see this. smh.......

[TylerD]

our starter went 5 innings and gave up only 1 run. 1.80 ERA

relievers 11.1 innings and gave up 3 runs. 2.38 ERA

1.80 > 2.38

Price > Relievers

how do some of you not see this. smh.......

You have made some good posts and intelligent posts.

 

This is not one of them.

[Maxbialystock]

wait....when did this "fact" come out? do we have a quote from Cora and/or Price stating that price asked to be taken out?

 

A fair question. I interpreted what Cora and and especially Price said, which was he wished he could have given more and that the decision was not on Cora.