The Pen

[Slasher9]

In all games played yesterday not 1 starter went past 7 innings. 7 went 7 innings, in 16 games, 32 starters, only 7 made it through the 7th.

7 is the new 9 for Starters.

Of course there are variables in this, mostly due to the score.

 

thats good info. would be interesting to see the overall stats for this for season to date.

[jung]

In all games played yesterday not 1 starter went past 7 innings. 7 went 7 innings, in 16 games, 32 starters, only 7 made it through the 7th.

7 is the new 9 for Starters.

Of course there are variables in this, mostly due to the score.

 

I would agree with that. I just don't see it as an advancement in the game. It is simply the way the game is played today having been massaged to this point by the powers that be in MLB. Like most of the goo-gah they have gotten us to swallow as producing a "better game" I can only reply.....Ah-huh. Sure it does.

 

I await the laughable absurdity of "expansion" under the auspices of this so called better game that they have massaged into being.

[Slasher9]

Jung - i think the "babying" of the SP coincided with the skyrocketing salaries of the players. owners protecting their investments.

would you agree?

[notin]

I would agree with that. I just don't see it as an advancement in the game. It is simply the way the game is played today having been massaged to this point by the powers that be in MLB. Like most of the goo-gah they have gotten us to swallow as producing a "better game" I can only reply.....Ah-huh. Sure it does.

 

I await the laughable absurdity of "expansion" under the auspices of this so called better game that they have massaged into being.

 

 

It’s just the natural evolution of the sport. Specialization. They maximize pitching efficiency by having certain pitchers pitch in certain roles. And it’s still going. Some teams are shying away from using the closer in the ninth inning and instead opting to use him as the “high leverage” situation specialist.

 

A lot of this was very likely also the product of economics. Starting pitching cost heavily, but non-closing relievers were comparatively cheap. So a financially strapped team that couldn’t afford a good SP would then instead use a cheaper, less effective one but limit his innings and rely more on the cheaper middle relief arms.

 

The NFL saw a similar shift to specialization by having players who are either offensive or defensive players. And also players who do nothing but place kick or punt. Or long snap. Or, on some teams, kick off...

[OH FOY]

You can dissect a Starter, a lot better then a Reliever. Number of Pitches, times through the line-up, you have some kind of gaging on a Starter then a Reliever.

Very few stats on any Starter after 7, your in uncharted territory. Feel for the game, good communication with Catcher, and Pitching Coach, the old fashion way.

Easier to use Computer. Maybe good, maybe bad.

Reliever needs to do one thing mainly, throw strikes. And try to make them unhittable.

[moonslav59]

Your methodology seems fair, but the results seem a little wonky.

 

Because we tend to just remember the blown saves and pen meltdowns.

 

We forget this...

 

8 Games where the starter got a -2 and we won.

 

3 Games where the starter got a -1 and we won.

 

5 Games where a starter got a 0 and we won.

 

That's 11 game of negative performance by our starters and the pen were big in getting us a win, and it is 16 games without aplus performance from our SP'ers, yet we still won. That's equal to our blown save total, but we don't remember the good 16- just the bad 16 (BTW, some games we had multiple blown saves, so the pen did not lose 16 games with 16 blown saves.)

 

[Kimmi]

Pretty clearly the BP gave the game away. HRs, walks , hit batsmen. A 5 run lead going into the 7th and bad performances by several relievers, including Barnes. I don't blame Cora for this, our pen just stunk it up and lost an opportunity to gain on the Rays.

 

Yes, that game was clearly on the pen.

[Kimmi]

Well, that did it for me. I will no longer defend Dombrowski's offseason work on the pen. It was negligent. dgalehouse was right. notin was right.

 

Hmm....

[Kimmi]

This is another issue, The Sox pitchers are also all getting overworked. Workman, Brasier, Barnes, Hembree and Walden have all pitched in at least 30 games, and Workman and Brasier are both top 10 in appearances .

 

It's not only that they are getting overworked, it's also that Cora cannot use them the way that he wants to due to underperformance/injury.

 

IMO, much of our bullpen woes are because the starting pitchers have not done what they are supposed to do.

[a700hitter]

Well, that did it for me. I will no longer defend Dombrowski's offseason work on the pen. It was negligent. dgalehouse was right. notin was right.

And the bad bullpen is Cora's only excuse. But for the pen, he has the same squad and he does not have them performing.

[moonslav59]

And the bad bullpen is Cora's only excuse. But for the pen, he has the same squad and he does not have them performing.

 

I think they have, to date,performed better than expected and better than their past careers indicated they would perform.

 

This is on DD not Cora. Cora has gotten the most he could possibly get out of this group of journeymen headed by one good set up man (Barnes before this year).

[jung]

It’s just the natural evolution of the sport. Specialization. They maximize pitching efficiency by having certain pitchers pitch in certain roles. And it’s still going. Some teams are shying away from using the closer in the ninth inning and instead opting to use him as the “high leverage” situation specialist.

 

A lot of this was very likely also the product of economics. Starting pitching cost heavily, but non-closing relievers were comparatively cheap. So a financially strapped team that couldn’t afford a good SP would then instead use a cheaper, less effective one but limit his innings and rely more on the cheaper middle relief arms.

 

The NFL saw a similar shift to specialization by having players who are either offensive or defensive players. And also players who do nothing but place kick or punt. Or long snap. Or, on some teams, kick off...

 

They have been pushing power baseball, power pitching and power hitting. The prevailing theme for pitching, "give us all you can for as long as you can". This is particularly true for Starters. Approaching this game from a perspective of devolving it down to one dimension from what is its best feature at least from my perspective, its multidimensionality makes little to no sense to me. We have evidence of this effort to massage the game all over MLB:

- Not dealing with the shift limits player fielding agility and supplants it with computer generated positioning....there is a great "advancement for you". Next will be an award for "best computer data" sitting along side the MVP and Silver Slugger winners.

- The rules around second base does not protect anything as we should well believe here in Boston. It simply biases toward larger ballplayers and away from agile ballplayers

- the juiced baseball....need I say more on that score as it has gotten to be more of a rocket ship year by year since 2016 and Manfred has room to go farther if he chooses

 

I think the DH was an OK move on the part of the AL. But remember the AL had already become by that point the "retirees" league, an old folks home for broken down ballplayers that could still hit. Probably torqued them off something fierce that the NL did not follow suit. At this point there are enough broken down ballplayers around both leagues that if I were the NL I would just give it up at this point. The Manfred trade winds are against them anyway.

 

But much to Manfred's chagrin, the self-correcting nature of baseball has foiled his plotting to some extent. With all talk, all the PR about 95+ flamethrowers and team management literally instructing their pitchers to give them all they have for as long as they can and all this launch angle garbage on the hitting side, breaking pitches are quite suddenly and over a time span no greater than 2-3 years more prevalent than ever. Contemporary Hitters by and large can't hit them, not if thrown the way they are designed to be thrown (might end up a great asset to Chavis because all he CAN hit is a breaker thrown for a strike).

 

We can already see the response from hitters as they now look to adjust in the only way they can....look for pitches in locations that can suit a purpose....go the opposite way, go yard, whatever till two strikes and then protect the plate, just as they used to do it. This has got to be driving Manfred crazy because he is right in the middle of many of these changes favoring an one dimensional game.

 

It would be ridiculous for us to think that all these changes have not been for the purpose of converting baseball to mainly a power game both side of the ball and it would be equally ridiculous at this point to believe that Manfred has simply been oblivious to the changes in the baseball itself regardless of his protestations otherwise. Manfred is likely NOT oblivious to the rocket ship and is much more likely the root cause.

Edited June 24, 2019 by jung

[Bellhorn04]

Because we tend to just remember the blown saves and pen meltdowns.

 

We forget this...

 

8 Games where the starter got a -2 and we won.

 

3 Games where the starter got a -1 and we won.

 

5 Games where a starter got a 0 and we won.

 

That's 11 game of negative performance by our starters and the pen were big in getting us a win, and it is 16 games without aplus performance from our SP'ers, yet we still won. That's equal to our blown save total, but we don't remember the good 16- just the bad 16 (BTW, some games we had multiple blown saves, so the pen did not lose 16 games with 16 blown saves.)

 

 

I think the bottom line is this:

 

The bullpen has been MEDIOCRE, as expected.

The starting pitching has been unexpectedly BAD.

 

That's why the pen seems to compare favorably to the starting pitching.

[a700hitter]

I think they have, to date,performed better than expected and better than their past careers indicated they would perform.

 

This is on DD not Cora. Cora has gotten the most he could possibly get out of this group of journeymen headed by one good set up man (Barnes before this year).

I was excluding the pen. Cora has an excuse for the pen. He has no excuse for the rest of the squad performing poorly. It's the same squad.

[Elktonnick]

I was excluding the pen. Cora has an excuse for the pen. He has no excuse for the rest of the squad performing poorly. It's the same squad.

 

You don't build a strong house on a weak foundation. The foundation was weak from the outset when the manager decided not to properly get his starters ready for the season during spring training. DD may not have improved the bull pen but as you quite rightly point out this is the same club as last year.

 

The manager screwed up at the outset and it caught up to him. The team is listless and plays brain dead baseball repeatedly. Except for isolated exceptions against very weak teams they haven't looked or played sharply for any consistent period. The bullpen has been over used and it shows but overall it merely reflects the performance of the entire team as a whole. And this is on the manager as much as anyone.

[dgalehouse]

It is kind of sad that we are hoping that the return of the problem child , the wife beater is going to give this club a much needed shot in the arm . Something is not right ( Wright ) here . Edited June 24, 2019 by dgalehouse

[dgalehouse]

If you don't count the blown saves , the bullpen has done a fine job. The starters have been the bigger problem. Yup . And if you don't count those plane crashes , Boeing has done a fine job . Most of the delays are the airport's fault .

[notin]

If you don't count the blown saves , the bullpen has done a fine job. The starters have been the bigger problem. Yup . And if you don't count those plane crashes , Boeing has done a fine job . Most of the delays are the airport's fault .

 

With a lot of the blown saves coming in the 7th and 8th innings, if the starters were able to pitch deeper into games, they wouldn’t be occurring. This will only exacerbate as the bullpen sees more and more work...

[dgalehouse]

With a lot of the blown saves coming in the 7th and 8th innings, if the starters were able to pitch deeper into games, they wouldn’t be occurring. This will only exacerbate as the bullpen sees more and more work...

Starters just don't go deep in games these days . Like it or not , that's how it is. That is why the bullpen is so important. As for blown saves in the 7th or 8th ; it is still your late relievers , your top bullpen guys being unable to get three outs without giving up the lead . And it is happening far too often.

[Bellhorn04]

If you don't count the blown saves , the bullpen has done a fine job. The starters have been the bigger problem. Yup .

 

The starters are 22-27 with a 4.48 ERA, and averaging 5.21 innings per start. You think those numbers aren't a big problem?

[moonslav59]

If you don't count the blown saves , the bullpen has done a fine job. The starters have been the bigger problem. Yup . And if you don't count those plane crashes , Boeing has done a fine job . Most of the delays are the airport's fault .

 

The starters have lost more games than the pen. Don't ignore all their plane crashes.

[dgalehouse]

The starters are 22-27 with a 4.48 ERA, and averaging 5.21 innings per start. You think those numbers aren't a big problem?

 

I'm not trying to defend the starters . They certainly have underachieved . But that shouldn't be used to offset the legitimate criticism of the bullpen.

[moonslav59]

I'm not trying to defend the starters . They certainly have underachieved . But that shouldn't be used to offset the legitimate criticism of the bullpen.

 

No doubt! We need pen help, but it seems like you only talk about the pen's blown saves and do not recognize how many games the pen has won for us while being overworked.

 

Yes, starters don't go as deep anymore, but ours have gone less than the norm.

[dgalehouse]

Here is a quote from probably the best reliever of all time , Mariano Rivera : " Nowadays, the starters only go five or six innings and the bullpen takes over from there . So that tells you how important the bullpen is now ."

[dgalehouse]

We are about halfway through the season. Workman has pitched 35 innings . Barnes has pitched 33 innings. Brasier has pitched 31 innings . I would not call that being seriously overworked. There is no way you can excuse or gloss over 15 blown saves .

[jung]

We are about halfway through the season. Workman has pitched 35 innings . Barnes has pitched 33 innings. Brasier has pitched 31 innings . I would not call that being seriously overworked. There is no way you can excuse or gloss over 15 blown saves .

 

I don't know how the Sox could have chosen Brasier to close based on the smallest sample size in history for making such a decision. Never mind the when of it...2019 post season, the length of the sample size was laughable.

 

I also don't know why there is this quizzical commenting I see around baseball once again about why the 9th inning is so tough. Its not hard to figure. The pitcher is facing hitters that know its the last inning and they are behind. They are as focused as they are ever going to be in that game and THAT is the reason why. Brasier, at best is one of your journeyman bull pen slugs and the chance of him succeeding as a closer over the 162 was about as thin as it could have been. I suspect, DD not getting into money for that specific role is simply Henry unwilling to keep feeding the monster that is DD when it comes to a franchise farm system and franchise budget. There is simply no possibility that DD will not bust your budget no matter how big it is and raid your farm system to zilch no matter how deep it might be unless the owner restrains him.

 

That said, they are INVENTING ways to lose games this year. Everything but the fielding is letting them down at one time or another this year. As such I am not entirely convinced that even a Closer pulls them abreast of the Yankees or even the Rays. The whole right side of the infield is a train wreck just as an example. 1-6 in the batting order is intensely inconsistent and have fallen prey even more than other teams to the newfangled (at least for this version of MLB) tendency for pitchers to throw breaking pitch after breaking pitch.

Edited June 24, 2019 by jung

[Elktonnick]

We are about halfway through the season. Workman has pitched 35 innings . Barnes has pitched 33 innings. Brasier has pitched 31 innings . I would not call that being seriously overworked. There is no way you can excuse or gloss over 15 blown saves .

 

It isn't the nbr innings per se but rather the intensity and stress of those innings. Anyone who has watched this team throughout the year knows these have for the most part been high stress innings as the nbr of blown saves would attest.

[dgalehouse]

It isn't the nbr innings per se but rather the intensity and stress of those innings. Anyone who has watched this team throughout the year knows these have for the most part been high stress innings as the nbr of blown saves would attest.

 

Late relievers are going to pitch high stress innings . It goes with the territory . There is no getting around the fact that they have 16 saves and 15 blown saves . That is simply terrible .

[Elktonnick]

Late relievers are going to pitch high stress innings . It goes with the territory . There is no getting around the fact that they have 16 saves and 15 blown saves . That is simply terrible .

 

I believe Dennis Eckersley who knows a thing or two about pitching when he says the pen has been overworked.

[moonslav59]

How many our 15 blown saves have come in the 9th inning?

4 in 9th

5 in 8th

4 in 7th

1 in 12th

1 in 13th

(9 blown saves in 8th and 9th)

 

How many games with 1 or more blown saves?

1 on June 18th

 

Out of the 14 games we had 1-2 blown saves, how many did we end up losing?

Only 7.

 

Here's a look at our blown saves by pitcher.

 

Brasier 7 saves/ 3 BS

4/17 L 3-5 (0.2 IP 1 ER 1H 0 BB 2K) 7th inning

5/2 L 4-6 (0.1 IP 3 ER 2H 0 BB 1K) 9th inning

5/28 L5-7 (0.0 IP 3 ER 2H 1 BB 0K) 9th inning

 

Barnes 4 saves/5 BS

4/20 W 6-5 (1 IP 1 ER 1 H 0 BB 3K) 8th

4/21 W 4-3 (1 IP 1 ER 1 H 1 BB 2K) 8th

5/15 W 6-5 (0.1 IP 0 ER 1 H 0 BB 1K) 7th

6/10 L 3-4 (0.2 IP 2 ER 3H 1 BB 1K) 9th

6/22 L 7-8 (0.2 IP 3 ER 2 H 2 BB 1K) 8th

 

Workman 2 saves/ 3 BS

5/14 L 4-5 (1.0 IP 2 ER 2H 0 BB 2K) 8th

6/12 W 4-3 (1.1 IP 0 ER 0H 1BB 2K- 1 unearned run) 7-8th

6/18 L 3-4 (1.0 IP 1 ER 1 H 2 BB 2K) 8th

 

Hembree 1 sv/ 1 BS

5/22 W 6-5 (2.0 IP 1 ER 1H 0 BB 3K) 12th

 

Walden 1 Sv/ 2 BS

5/19 W 6-5 (2.0 IP 1 ER 4H 1 BB 3K) 9-10th

6/16 W 8-6 (1.2 IP 1 ER 1H 1 BB 1K )7-8th

 

Velazquez 0 sv/ 1 BS

6/18 L 3-4 (4 IP 1 ER 3H 0BB 3K) 13-16 innings

 

Smith 1 sv/ 0 BS

 

So, basically, we've lost 7 games due to blown saves. We've won 7 games after blowing a save and many games won with our pen saving the game or holding the lead. Then there are many games where our pen got the win after our offense brought us back from a deficit brought on by our starter.