Chris Sale traded to Braves

[Maxbialystock]

It's hard to keep track of each posters' long-standing positions, and hence sarcasm related to those positions.

 

I have not lost faith in Grissom, but I think Rafaela at SS allows a great OF alignment of Duran, O'Neill and an Abreu-Ref platoon.

 

It also allows DHam to platoon with Romy (SS when Rafaela is in CF or 2B) or Westbrook (2B only.)

 

This alignment is the best middle IF we have seen since Bogey-Story.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "faith in Grissom" because I see no way he can do as much for the Sox as Sale has already done for the Braves. So far Sale has 19 starts, 11 quality starts, 117 IP, an ERA of 2.68, and 13 wins.

 

And, speaking of faith, it sure looks to me as though the Braves had far more faith in Sale than the Sox. And what does that tell us about the Sox ability to evaluate their own players?

[moonslav59]

I'm not sure what you mean by "faith in Grissom" because I see no way he can do as much for the Sox as Sale has already done for the Braves. So far Sale has 19 starts, 11 quality starts, 117 IP, an ERA of 2.68, and 13 wins.

 

And, speaking of faith, it sure looks to me as though the Braves had far more faith in Sale than the Sox. And what does that tell us about the Sox ability to evaluate their own players?

 

I did not say or imply Grissom could or will equal what we lost in Sale, but I do still think Grissom has a good chance to make a difference in the next 4 years.

 

As for evaluating our own players, nobody expected this from Sale.

 

BTW, did we evaluate Verdugo (for Fitts), Robertson, Santos (for O'Neill) and Ryan Ammons (for Slaten) well enough?

 

Max, we got one wrong, and it was not unjustifiable. Our big issue with our staff had been relying on oft-injured pitchers, and we made a move to lessen that risk. It back-fired. It does not mean Brez is an idiot, because Sale has done the unthinkable.

 

Nobody expected this Sale after 2020, after 2021, after 2022 and after 2023 at age 35. To call out our GMs abilities over one move is just not what I think is fair.

 

If he botched most of his winter moves and goes on to make more and more moves that back-fire- have at it.

 

We still have 4 years of Grissom. I'm hoping for the best but not expecting it.

[Bellhorn04]

I did not say or imply Grissom could or will equal what we lost in Sale, but I do still think Grissom has a good chance to make a difference in the next 4 years.

 

As for evaluating our own players, nobody expected this from Sale.

 

BTW, did we evaluate Verdugo (for Fitts), Robertson, Santos (for O'Neill) and Ryan Ammons (for Slaten) well enough?

 

Max, we got one wrong, and it was not unjustifiable. Our big issue with our staff had been relying on oft-injured pitchers, and we made a move to lessen that risk. It back-fired. It does not mean Brez is an idiot, because Sale has done the unthinkable.

 

Nobody expected this Sale after 2020, after 2021, after 2022 and after 2023 at age 35. To call out our GMs abilities over one move is just not what I think is fair.

 

It's fair to call out the offseason plan for the rotation as a whole, though, when all they did is remove Sale and add Giolito.

 

The rest of it was basically counting on Bailey to perform a miracle.

[Old Red]

It's fair to call out the offseason plan for the rotation as a whole, though, when all they did is remove Sale and add Giolito.

 

The rest of it was basically counting on Bailey to perform a miracle.

 

It seems like the Miracle Man that everyone has been raving about since the season started Magic act has run out of magic. Every time he comes out to the mound now, which is often things get worse after he leaves. His Magic certainly hasn’t made Big Baby Bello a better pitcher, and Pivetta is still the same good,and Bad Pivetta. I think Wink has been messed up, and not the same pitcher as last year. Houck has been real good this year, but maybe he just figured it out, got more consistent, and in the process got better. Either way as good as the pitching was early in the season it’s just as bad, or worse today, so maybe they need a new act.

[Bellhorn04]

It seems like the Miracle Man that everyone has been raving about since the season started Magic act has run out of magic. Every time he comes out to the mound now, which is often things get worse after he leaves. His Magic certainly hasn’t made Big Baby Bello a better pitcher, and Pivetta is still the same good,and Bad Pivetta. I think Wink has been messed up, and not the same pitcher as last year. Houck has been real good this year, but maybe he just figured it out, got more consistent, and in the process got better. Either way as good as the pitching was early in the season it’s just as bad, or worse today, so maybe they need a new act.

 

The big thing Bailey did at the start of the season was figure out the best pitch mix for each starter based on which pitches they've had the most success with.

 

Looks like that had a lot to do with the great start.

 

But then other teams study what you're doing and adjust to it.

 

No matter how good the coach is, it comes back to the actual abilities of the pitchers.

 

Nobody really had much faith in a rotation of Houck, Crawford, Bello, Pivetta and Giolito.

[Old Red]

The big thing Bailey did at the start of the season was figure out the best pitch mix for each starter based on which pitches they've had the most success with.

 

Looks like that had a lot to do with the great start.

 

But then other teams study what you're doing and adjust to it.

 

No matter how good the coach is, it comes back to the actual abilities of the pitchers.

 

Nobody really had much faith in a rotation of Houck, Crawford, Bello, Pivetta and Giolito.

 

I

All I care about is right now, and right now Bailey is running a marathon out to the mound just like Bush did, and when he leaves things get even worse than before he went out there just like when he went out to the mound in Colorado the other day down 15-3, and Colorado added 5 more runs to the scoreboard.

[notin]

The big thing Bailey did at the start of the season was figure out the best pitch mix for each starter based on which pitches they've had the most success with.

 

Looks like that had a lot to do with the great start.

 

But then other teams study what you're doing and adjust to it.

 

No matter how good the coach is, it comes back to the actual abilities of the pitchers.

 

Nobody really had much faith in a rotation of Houck, Crawford, Bello, Pivetta and Giolito.

 

 

Well, it was a small list…

[Bellhorn04]

It'll always be a bit of a mystery why they thought that swapping Chris Sale for Lucas Giolito was all we needed to do for the 2024 rotation.

 

I can only think the budget played a big role in that thinking.

[Bellhorn04]

It was a risky rotation they put together. I don't really see how having Sale in the mix would have actually increased the risk. If he got injured again, it was the last guaranteed year of his contract so you just write it off.

 

Anyway, I'm just covering points I've already made, just jabbering for something to do, quite honestly LOL

[Old Red]

It'll always be a bit of a mystery why they thought that swapping Chris Sale for Lucas Giolito was all we needed to do for the 2024 rotation.

 

I can only think the budget played a big role in that thinking.

 

I don’t think it was a question of thought but it was just all they were will to do, which still puzzles me, because it ended up costing them more money.

[Old Red]

It was a risky rotation they put together. I don't really see how having Sale in the mix would have actually increased the risk. If he got injured again, it was the last guaranteed year of his contract so you just write it off.

 

Anyway, I'm just covering points I've already made, just jabbering for something to do, quite honestly LOL

 

I’m thinking the Braves came to the Red Sox on this, and not the other way around as there were rumors the Braves were interested in Sale last season as well. I don’t think Bloom would have made this deal, but Brez jumped at it, and signed Gio as well.

[notin]

It'll always be a bit of a mystery why they thought that swapping Chris Sale for Lucas Giolito was all we needed to do for the 2024 rotation.

 

I can only think the budget played a big role in that thinking.

 

Getting actual innings pitched?

[Bellhorn04]

Getting actual innings pitched?

 

Sale pitched 102.2 last year. Not great but 102.2 more than zero.

 

I've yet to see an explanation for how subtracting innings is a plus.

 

It wouldn't have broken any rules to keep Sale and sign Giolito.

[Old Red]

Sale pitched 102.2 last year. Not great but 102.2 more than zero.

 

I've yet to see an explanation for how subtracting innings is a plus.

 

It wouldn't have broken any rules to keep Sale and sign Giolito.

 

And it only would have cost $10M to do it.

[Bellhorn04]

And it only would have cost $10M to do it.

 

Exactly.

[notin]

Sale pitched 102.2 last year. Not great but 102.2 more than zero.

 

I've yet to see an explanation for how subtracting innings is a plus.

 

It wouldn't have broken any rules to keep Sale and sign Giolito.

 

Not about rules. You know that.

 

Sale pitched 102 IP last year, but missed a huge chunk in the middle of the season with an injury. He missed almost all of 2022 with an injury. He kissed most of 2022 with an injury. He missed all of 2020 with an injury. He ended 2019 with an injury and a mediocre 4.40 ERA for the season. Thinking he was just going to step in and pitch like this for 150-180 IP bordered on a fantasy. And his AAV was what? $25.6mill for a huge question mark?

 

If you honestly can’t see why he was moved after that 5 year stretch detailed above at what he had cost, not sure what to say. Atlanta rolled the dice and it’s paying off huge, but if Sale was on the 60 day IL right now, would you be surprised?

 

Giolito on the 60 day IL actually is much more surprising, especially since he could have been a one year solution. 23yo Vaughn Grissom’s inability to recover from simple injuries is also somewhat surprising.

 

This deal has been a disaster for Boston. And probably never gets made if Sale had shown anything close to durability from 2020 through 2023. 100 IP interrupted by an injury is not an acceptable display of durability…

[Bellhorn04]

Not about rules. You know that.

 

Sale pitched 102 IP last year, but missed a huge chunk in the middle of the season with an injury. He missed almost all of 2022 with an injury. He kissed most of 2022 with an injury. He missed all of 2020 with an injury. He ended 2019 with an injury and a mediocre 4.40 ERA for the season. Thinking he was just going to step in and pitch like this for 150-180 IP bordered on a fantasy. And his AAV was what? $25.6mill for a huge question mark?

 

If you honestly can’t see why he was moved after that 5 year stretch detailed above at what he had cost, not sure what to say. Atlanta rolled the dice and it’s paying off huge, but if Sale was on the 60 day IL right now, would you be surprised?

 

Giolito on the 60 day IL actually is much more surprising, especially since he could have been a one year solution. 23yo Vaughn Grissom’s inability to recover from simple injuries is also somewhat surprising.

 

This deal has been a disaster for Boston. And probably never gets made if Sale had shown anything close to durability from 2020 through 2023. 100 IP interrupted by an injury is not an acceptable display of durability…

 

There was only one year left though. Not much to lose by keeping him.

 

And they only saved $10 million.

 

There are plenty of reasons to question the underlying logic of this move, when you look at the totality of what they did.

[Bellhorn04]

As for Giolito, it's not the fact that he get injured that made it a questionable signing. It's that

 

a) He was the worst pitcher in baseball the last 2 months of 2023.

His contract guaranteed $38 million but had an opt out that meant if he pitched great we'd probably lose him after one year.

 

All in all, there's just no way you can give a passing grade to what they did for the rotation. It was just another offseason of negligence.

[notin]

There was only one year left though. Not much to lose by keeping him.

 

And they only saved $10 million.

 

There are plenty of reasons to question the underlying logic of this move, when you look at the totality of what they did.

 

 

I think there are reasons to question the results of what they did, but the logic made sense at the time…

[Bellhorn04]

I think there are reasons to question the results of what they did, but the logic made sense at the time…

 

At the time we didn't know Giolito would be the only addition.

 

I was silly enough to think if they were trading Sale it meant a big addition was coming.

[notin]

As for Giolito, it's not the fact that he get injured that made it a questionable signing. It's that

 

a) He was the worst pitcher in baseball the last 2 months of 2023.

His contract guaranteed $38 million but had an opt out that meant if he pitched great we'd probably lose him after one year.

 

All in all, there's just no way you can give a passing grade to what they did for the rotation. It was just another offseason of negligence.

 

No. Negligence would have been rolling Sale out there again and watching him get hurt and miss 3/4 of the season. They were proactive in getting a pitcher with a solid track record of showing up for work, something Sale hasn’t had in a long time.

 

Yes, Giolito struggled after for his final 60 IP last year. But he also pitched 126 IP before it happened. When was the last time Sale even pitched 126 IP in a season? Let alone added on 60 more?

[Bellhorn04]

No. Negligence would have been rolling Sale out there again and watching him get hurt and miss 3/4 of the season. They were proactive in getting a pitcher with a solid track record of showing up for work, something Sale hasn’t had in a long time.

 

Yes, Giolito struggled after for his final 60 IP last year. But he also pitched 126 IP before it happened. When was the last time Sale even pitched 126 IP in a season? Let alone added on 60 more?

 

Again they could have had both. Not sure why that point has to be repeated. You can never have enough pitching.

 

If you think they did enough and weren't negligent that's fine, we're all entitled to our opinions. I'm not changing mine. I haven't seen anything to convince me they didn't do too little.

[Randy Red Sox]

No. Negligence would have been rolling Sale out there again and watching him get hurt and miss 3/4 of the season. They were proactive in getting a pitcher with a solid track record of showing up for work, something Sale hasn’t had in a long time.

 

Yes, Giolito struggled after for his final 60 IP last year. But he also pitched 126 IP before it happened. When was the last time Sale even pitched 126 IP in a season? Let alone added on 60 more?

 

this year and the Braves thank us very much

[notin]

At the time we didn't know Giolito would be the only addition.

 

I was silly enough to think if they were trading Sale it meant a big addition was coming.

 

I actually didn’t, although Montgomery rumors were a little enticing. I did like Bello-Crawford-Houck more than most. And probably still do. Although my faith in them was definitely in the wrong order, as Bello was my favorite and Houck my least.

 

Honestly the Sale-Giolito debacle wasn’t the worst decision this off-season. Just the most overblown. The worst one was once again forcing Whitlock into the rotation. Unlike the Sale trade, this is a move that had already resulted in multiple failures and looks to have depleted a very worn out bullpen even further right now. Sale/Giolito has just been horrible luck. But how Whitlock was handled was stubborn, ignorant, and negligent…

[notin]

this year and the Braves thank us very much

 

Check your math and then explain how it factored into decisions made in December 2023…

[Bellhorn04]

I actually didn’t, although Montgomery rumors were a little enticing. I did like Bello-Crawford-Houck more than most. And probably still do. Although my faith in them was definitely in the wrong order, as Bello was my favorite and Houck my least.

 

Honestly the Sale-Giolito debacle wasn’t the worst decision this off-season. Just the most overblown. The worst one was once again forcing Whitlock into the rotation. Unlike the Sale trade, this is a move that had already resulted in multiple failures and looks to have depleted a very worn out bullpen even further right now. Sale/Giolito has just been horrible luck. But how Whitlock was handled was stubborn, ignorant, and negligent…

 

And I think the decision to give Whitlock another shot at starting was part of the decision to trade Sale, too.

[notin]

Again they could have had both. Not sure why that point has to be repeated. You can never have enough pitching.

 

If you think they did enough and weren't negligent that's fine, we're all entitled to our opinions. I'm not changing mine. I haven't seen anything to convince me they didn't do too little.

 

I don’t think they wanted both or that Giolito was such hot property they needed to add him. I think the goal was to get some pitching out of the $29mill they committed to Sale. There were only two options.

 

1. Count on Sale

2. Move as much of Sale’s salary and spend it on a pitcher who will actually pitch.

 

To me, option one is no different than the repeated attempts to force Whitlock into the rotation, something no one has supported…

[notin]

And I think the decision to give Whitlock another shot at starting was part of the decision to trade Sale, too.

 

I have no idea if or how they were connected. Both pitchers were expected in the rotation in 2022 and 2023 and neither proved reliable. They tried to keep the wrong one in the rotation in 2024…

[Bellhorn04]

I don’t think they wanted both or that Giolito was such hot property they needed to add him. I think the goal was to get some pitching out of the $29mill they committed to Sale. There were only two options.

 

1. Count on Sale

2. Move as much of Sale’s salary and spend it on a pitcher who will actually pitch.

 

To me, option one is no different than the repeated attempts to force Whitlock into the rotation, something no one has supported…

 

They didn't have to "count on" Sale, IMHO. Consider him your fungible #5 starter who may need to be jettisoned at some point, cross your fingers and hope for the best.

 

There's a ton of guesswork and luck in pitching rotations these days. Nobody can plan for all the s*** that happens.

[notin]

They didn't have to "count on" Sale, IMHO. Consider him your fungible #5 starter who may need to be jettisoned at some point, cross your fingers and hope for the best.

 

There's a ton of guesswork and luck in pitching rotations these days. Nobody can plan for all the s*** that happens.

 

How many teams have a $29mill fungible starter?

 

Henry has gotten cheap, but even teams that haven’t don’t spend that on “fungible starters.”

 

If Sale was a free agent this off-season, he doesn’t get that kind of money…