Chris Sale traded to Braves

[Bellhorn04]

Regardless of how anyone felt at the time, we're not the CBO, and the fact is that the CBO's moves are judged pretty heavily on results.

 

DD's extension of Sale would be a prime example of that.

 

Hell, DD has taken an enormous amount of flak for Price, even though Price was instrumental in winning a ring.

 

It's a tough job these guys have, making guesses that can have hundreds of millions attached to them...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Regardless of how anyone felt at the time, we're not the CBO, and the fact is that the CBO's moves are judged pretty heavily on results.

 

DD's extension of Sale would be a prime example of that.

 

Hell, DD has taken an enormous amount of flak for Price, even though Price was instrumental in winning a ring.

 

It's a tough job these guys have, making guesses that can have hundreds of millions attached to them...

 

The only guarantee is a guy like Dombrowski will keep making hundreds of moves for his guesses, generating fan interest by always giving them renewed hope.

 

Dombro might cost owners money in the short term, but what's the value of sustained fan excitement? No baseball city in America has had more fun in the past three years than Philadelphia.

[notin]

The sunk cost principle also applies to Yoshida. You're not going to be able to move him without paying too much, so you might as well keep him.

 

… but it’s an admission the best course of action would be to abandon Yoshida or Sale. If Sale was truly sunk cost, trading him away is the proper course…

[Bellhorn04]

… but it’s an admission the best course of action would be to abandon Yoshida or Sale. If Sale was truly sunk cost, trading him away is the proper course…

 

No, not necessarily, only if you're getting enough back to make it worth it.

 

And as we're seeing, there's risk of it being a bad move even if you do get something back.

[moonslav59]

Red was all over the $17 mill!

 

But otherwise thought the player swap was okay.

[moonslav59]

moon's initial reaction was not enthused.

 

Yes, but the more I thought about how bad our 2B position had been for 4-5 years, and how promising Grissom looked, I moved towards thinking the deal was okay.

 

The more I thought about the unreliability of Sale, and how all the Klubers, Richards and other oft-injured SP'ers killed our chances over the last 4-5 years, I began to like the deal, a little bit.

 

Then, the more I thought about the $10M "saved," and how we might use that towards paying some of another SP'er salary (beyond Gio,) I came to like the deal.

When we did not add another SP'er (like Lugo, Imanaga or Flaherty,) I began my "sham" talk. The savings was not really used. Sure, we can say we don't sign Gio without the Sale trade, or we don't take on O'Neill's cost without it, but that's all a smoke screen for JH's greediness and neglect.

 

The Sale deal made some sense. The fact that Grissom has sucked, this year, and Sale has returned to Chris Freakin' Sale does not change the deal's merits at the time. The Gio injury only added to the problem of the deal's failure.

[dgalehouse]

The idea that the Sale trade didn't work out but made sense at the time has been beaten to death. Sale is a great pitcher who had a series of injuries but was healthy at the time. Grissom was a decent prospect who was probably not as highly regarded as Marcelo Mayer. The fact that the trade did not work out is not shocking or surprising. It was all about saving some money.

[moonslav59]

The idea that the Sale trade didn't work out but made sense at the time has been beaten to death. Sale is a great pitcher who had a series of injuries but was healthy at the time. Grissom was a decent prospect who was probably not as highly regarded as Marcelo Mayer. The fact that the trade did not work out is not shocking or surprising. It was all about saving some money.

 

The trade made "some sense."

 

What has been beaten to death is the mantra that it made "absolutely no sense," that "Brez is an idiot," and that a half season of decent pitching by Sale in 2023 was supposed to prove he was going to be great in 2024.

 

While some of Grissom's value was speculative, many felt he'd be at worst an average defender at 2B, which alone, would have been a great improvement over 2020-2023's 2B play. His offense was projected to be and already had been better (.746 w ATL) than out team OPS at 2B from 2019-2023 (.697)

 

That does make some sense, right?

[Old Red]

The trade made "some sense."

 

What has been beaten to death is the mantra that it made "absolutely no sense," that "Brez is an idiot," and that a half season of decent pitching by Sale in 2023 was supposed to prove he was going to be great in 2024.

 

While some of Grissom's value was speculative, many felt he'd be at worst an average defender at 2B, which alone, would have been a great improvement over 2020-2023's 2B play. His offense was projected to be and already had been better (.746 w ATL) than out team OPS at 2B from 2019-2023 (.697)

 

That does make some sense, right?

It hasn’t been beaten to death the Brez is an idiot, and saying so is putting a long stretch on things.

[Bellhorn04]

But otherwise thought the player swap was okay.

 

Yes, but I think he's right that the $17 mill is a big factor in itself.

[Bellhorn04]

It hasn’t been beaten to death the Brez is an idiot, and saying so is putting a long stretch on things.

 

Yeah, I don't think anyone is calling Brez an idiot because of this deal.

[moonslav59]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is calling Brez an idiot because of this deal.

 

Someone used those exact words multiple times (maybe Max?) Others have used less forceful words. Maybe that term has not been beaten to death, but all together, the amount of attacking on the deal as making "no sense" is just as lengthy as the defense of the deal making "SOME sense," at the time.

[Bellhorn04]

The trade made "some sense."

 

What has been beaten to death is the mantra that it made "absolutely no sense," that "Brez is an idiot," and that a half season of decent pitching by Sale in 2023 was supposed to prove he was going to be great in 2024.

 

While some of Grissom's value was speculative, many felt he'd be at worst an average defender at 2B, which alone, would have been a great improvement over 2020-2023's 2B play. His offense was projected to be and already had been better (.746 w ATL) than out team OPS at 2B from 2019-2023 (.697)

 

That does make some sense, right?

 

I think it would have made more sense to prioritize the rotation, and if they were going to upgrade second base for 2024, do it another way.

 

The "long term solution to second base" part is odd, too, because next year we'll have Story, Mayer, and others in contention for MIF spots.

[Bellhorn04]

Someone used those exact words multiple times (maybe Max?) Others have used less forceful words. Maybe that term has not been beaten to death, but all together, the amount of attacking on the deal as making "no sense" is just as lengthy as the defense of the deal making "SOME sense," at the time.

 

Yes, you're right, Max has been saying it, and with all due respect, Max has been over the top on it.

[Old Red]

Yes, but I think he's right that the $17 mill is a big factor in itself.

 

Yes I’ve believed all along, and still do that $17M is a big deal. It didn’t save any money unless you want to say they used the $10M to help pay Gio, so instead of $18M it’s really only $8M, but then again your still paying that $17M for Sale to play for someone else, and the fact that he’s pitching so good makes it even look worse. I’m sure JH isn’t to thrilled how this has all worked out.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes I’ve believed all along, and still do that $17M is a big deal. It didn’t save any money unless you want to say they used the $10M to help pay Gio, so instead of $18M it’s really only $8M, but then again your still paying that $17M for Sale to play for someone else, and the fact that he’s pitching so good makes it even look worse. I’m sure JH isn’t to thrilled how this has all worked out.

 

What did Bob Kraft say later about Belichick letting go of Brady?

 

"F***ing Belichick told me he was finished", something like that?

[Old Red]

What did Bob Kraft say later about Belichick letting go of Brady?

 

"F***ing Belichick told me he was finished", something like that?

 

Nailed it. I wonder how Brez explained the Sale trade to JH, or Sam who then explained it to JH? Knowing that Gio’s contract would be added too.

[Randy Red Sox]

The idea that the Sale trade didn't work out but made sense at the time has been beaten to death. Sale is a great pitcher who had a series of injuries but was healthy at the time. Grissom was a decent prospect who was probably not as highly regarded as Marcelo Mayer. The fact that the trade did not work out is not shocking or surprising. It was all about saving some money.

 

very true and i sure hope Mayer is a HELL of a lot better prospect than Grissom

[notin]

No, not necessarily, only if you're getting enough back to make it worth it.

 

And as we're seeing, there's risk of it being a bad move even if you do get something back.

 

 

“Bad move” and “sunk cost” are completely different ideas.

 

If a player is truly sunk cost, he has to be untradable…

[moonslav59]

I think it would have made more sense to prioritize the rotation, and if they were going to upgrade second base for 2024, do it another way.

 

The "long term solution to second base" part is odd, too, because next year we'll have Story, Mayer, and others in contention for MIF spots.

 

I agree 100%, but you did not answer the Q.

[Bellhorn04]

“Bad move” and “sunk cost” are completely different ideas.

 

If a player is truly sunk cost, he has to be untradable…

 

I probably should have explained this better before. With Sale, and also with Yoshida, you have a partially sunk cost or a sunk cost portion. The money is not strictly dead, because the player still has some value or potential value, but no one is going to pay their full salary for you in a trade. So your decisions are based on the amount you can recover vs. that potential value.

[Bellhorn04]

I agree 100%, but you did not answer the Q.

 

I'm not saying the trade made no sense. It makes sense that Sale was still a significant injury risk and it makes sense that Grissom was a prospect with significant potential.

 

What still doesn't make sense is the team's overall approach to the rotation - thinking that removing Sale and adding Giolito was going to be enough. That did not make sense at all, in fact some might call it ridiculous, moronic etc.

 

And since I actually think Breslow is a very smart and capable executive, my tendency is to believe it's the payroll budget that led to this moronic approach.

 

And I believe the fact that they did nothing to replace their big addition when he quickly went down for the season strongly supports the cheap/moronic theory.

[notin]

I'm not saying the trade made no sense. It makes sense that Sale was still a significant injury risk and it makes sense that Grissom was a prospect with significant potential.

 

What still doesn't make sense is the team's overall approach to the rotation - thinking that removing Sale and adding Giolito was going to be enough. That did not make sense at all, in fact some might call it ridiculous, moronic etc.

 

And since I actually think Breslow is a very smart and capable executive, my tendency is to believe it's the payroll budget that led to this moronic approach.

 

And I believe the fact that they did nothing to replace their big addition when he quickly went down for the season strongly supports the cheap/moronic theory.

 

 

They still could have added depth in other ways. Especially since they had almost nothing in the way of AAA SPs ready to step up…

[notin]

I probably should have explained this better before. With Sale, and also with Yoshida, you have a partially sunk cost or a sunk cost portion. The money is not strictly dead, because the player still has some value or potential value, but no one is going to pay their full salary for you in a trade. So your decisions are based on the amount you can recover vs. that potential value.

 

“Partially sunk cost” strikes me as being akin to “partially dead” or “partially pregnant.”

 

Certainly you have players whose contract exceeds their value, but that doesn’t mean the smart move is to abandon them and move on…

[Bellhorn04]

“Partially sunk cost” strikes me as being akin to “partially dead” or “partially pregnant.”

 

Well, there's also the terms "underwater contract" or "underwater asset", which just means the current value is below the invested cost or existing liability.

 

Partially is a real thing because we're just talking about money...

[Bellhorn04]

They still could have added depth in other ways. Especially since they had almost nothing in the way of AAA SPs ready to step up…

 

Right, so that would support the 'moronic' theory.

[Old Red]

Right, so that would support the 'moronic' theory.

 

Brez was quite pleased with himself of his accomplishments at the trade deadline even though the rotation was only somewhat helped by finding someone in the breakdown lane hitchhiking.

[Bellhorn04]

Yeah, as a poster on Sons of Sam Horn put it when someone else argued the 2024 team was in a much different position from the 2023 team at this same point:

 

The 2023 Red Sox were relying on a 34-year-old Canadian left-hander that had shown warning signs for weeks before completely collapsing over the final two months. The 2024 Red Sox are relying on a 35-year-old Canadian left-hander that has shown warning signs for months— totally different.

[notin]

Right, so that would support the 'moronic' theory.

 

It actually goes beyond “cheap”. I’ve repeatedly highlighted a list of veteran SPs who took minor league deals, all with other teams…

Edited August 4, 2024 by notin

[notin]

Yeah, as a poster on Sons of Sam Horn put it when someone else argued the 2024 team was in a much different position from the 2023 team at this same point:

 

The 2023 Red Sox were relying on a 34-year-old Canadian left-hander that had shown warning signs for weeks before completely collapsing over the final two months. The 2024 Red Sox are relying on a 35-year-old Canadian left-hander that has shown warning signs for months— totally different.

 

Getting Paxton was a good move. Not getting anyone else is the problem.

 

Now if Sims and Garcia pushes Criswell and/or Winckowski back into the rotation, that’s at least something. Also if it limits all SPs to 5-6 IP max per start…