Chris Sale traded to Braves

[notin]

The signing of Giolito was actually announced the day before the Sale trade was announced. Looks like they were probably both in the works at the same time.

 

Possible. My point is one was linked to the other. Not like the Sale trade negotiations started earlier that same morning…

[notin]

Because the Sox are suckers and Atlanta was happy to take advantage?

 

A convenient story. Of course, if this deal was 100% about just cutting salary, why make the deal at all if you’re paying that much?

 

And if you have so much faith that Sale was back and ready to go, why would Atlanta ask for money and risk Boston killing the deal?

[Bellhorn04]

A convenient story. Of course, if this deal was 100% about just cutting salary, why make the deal at all if you’re paying that much?

 

Because 10 million is still a chunk of change? This is like asking why they traded Price when they still had to pay $16 million.

[notin]

Because 10 million is still a chunk of change? This is like asking why they traded Price when they still had to pay $16 million.

 

In both cases, the other team likely asked for the money because they knew the risks of trading for damaged goods…

[Bellhorn04]

In both cases, the other team likely asked for the money because they knew the risks of trading for damaged goods…

 

Yes, I think you may have hit on it!

[notin]

Yes, I think you may have hit on it!

 

It’s only what I’ve been saying for multiple weeks!

 

I believe if Sale pitched a full season last year, he’d still be in Boston. And Giolito would be on some other team’s injury list…

[Old Red]

Yes, they wanted to move Sale’s contract. Did the part about Atlanta asking Boston take the financial burden not show up on your screen? Or do you only read partial posts so as to leave room for irrelevant criticisms? And despite his brief performance in Boston, Grissom was absolutely a valuable trade piece, and one the Braves were not merely handing over for nothing.

 

Why do you suppose the Sox paid $17mill? Or better question - why do you suppose Atlanta asked for a huge chunk of money be included along with Sale?

 

So far Sale is pitching like a CY candidate, and Grissom has been playing when he has played like a suspect, and not a prospect. I’ve already said in the beginning I didn’t know Boston had to kick in $17M, and have been highly critical of that fact ever since. Irrelevant criticism from a NN? That’s irrelevant in itself.

[Dipre]

You're highly critical for everything

[Old Red]

You're highly critical for everything

 

Yes, and I joined the club.

[Dipre]

Therefore, I take everything you say with a grain of salt. Your opinions have an agenda.

[Old Red]

Therefore, I take everything you say with a grain of salt. Your opinions have an agenda.

 

As does everyone else’s voted on by more than 1 establishment.

[Old Red]

Because the Sox are suckers and Atlanta was happy to take advantage?

 

And take advantage they did over the 12th pick in the 2024 HOBO draft, and took advantage of a rookie.

[Dipre]

As does everyone else’s voted on by more than 1 establishment.

 

What in the blue hell are you going on about?

[Maxbialystock]

It’s only what I’ve been saying for multiple weeks!

 

I believe if Sale pitched a full season last year, he’d still be in Boston. And Giolito would be on some other team’s injury list…

 

It's more complicated than you guys are saying. Sale made it clear that, whoever he played for this year, must agree to 3 years, 2024-2026. And he could do that as a 10year/5 year veteran of MLB and of the Sox.

 

I think it's the 3 year contract that made it very easy for the Sox not only to let Sale go, but to send $17M with him.

 

So why oh why did the Braves agree to 3 years? I think they looked at the bigger picture, which is that, after TJ surgery and presumably a rebuilt and stronger Sale, he never got a real chance to show what he could do until 2023.

 

Last year was 4 years after his last real season, so chances were he was rediscovering what he could still do: 20 starts, 6 complete games, 125 IP, 125 K's, 29 BB's, ERA 4.30. The Braves decided, correctly, that something like the old Sale was doable/possible.

 

But, as we have seen, this season they have been careful to give him a minimum of 6 days rest between starts and sometimes 7. In return, Sale has averaged 6.25 innings per start to go along with the 2.71 ERA and 127 K's to 19 BB's. He has pitched 100 innings and could come close to 200 for the season. However, we also know that Sale faltered in the final months (and the postseason) in 2017 and 2018 before ending the 2019 season early with just 25 starts. So I think the Braves will err on the side of caution this season because they want him for 2025 and 2026.

[notin]

It's more complicated than you guys are saying. Sale made it clear that, whoever he played for this year, must agree to 3 years, 2024-2026. And he could do that as a 10year/5 year veteran of MLB and of the Sox.

 

I think it's the 3 year contract that made it very easy for the Sox not only to let Sale go, but to send $17M with him.

 

So why oh why did the Braves agree to 3 years? I think they looked at the bigger picture, which is that, after TJ surgery and presumably a rebuilt and stronger Sale, he never got a real chance to show what he could do until 2023.

 

Last year was 4 years after his last real season, so chances were he was rediscovering what he could still do: 20 starts, 6 complete games, 125 IP, 125 K's, 29 BB's, ERA 4.30. The Braves decided, correctly, that something like the old Sale was doable/possible.

 

But, as we have seen, this season they have been careful to give him a minimum of 6 days rest between starts and sometimes 7. In return, Sale has averaged 6.25 innings per start to go along with the 2.71 ERA and 127 K's to 19 BB's. He has pitched 100 innings and could come close to 200 for the season. However, we also know that Sale faltered in the final months (and the postseason) in 2017 and 2018 before ending the 2019 season early with just 25 starts. So I think the Braves will err on the side of caution this season because they want him for 2025 and 2026.

 

 

Sale had no leverage to make the Red Sox extend him; due to his rights as a 10/5 player, he did have leverage with any potential trading partner. It’s possible that a deal or two before Atlanta were quashed by Sale when he never received an extension…

[Bellhorn04]

Sale had no leverage to make the Red Sox extend him; due to his rights as a 10/5 player, he did have leverage with any potential trading partner. It’s possible that a deal or two before Atlanta were quashed by Sale when he never received an extension…

 

Quite possible, but I think it should also be noted that this was a very, very reasonable extension. He was slated to make $27 mill for 2024, so the extension was one year for $11 mill, plus the Braves got a team option for a third year at $18 mill. He certainly didn't play hardball with them. (Yes, I know, injury-plagued beggars can't be choosers and all that.)

[Maxbialystock]

Quite possible, but I think it should also be noted that this was a very, very reasonable extension. He was slated to make $27 mill for 2024, so the extension was one year for $11 mill, plus the Braves got a team option for a third year at $18 mill. He certainly didn't play hardball with them. (Yes, I know, injury-plagued beggars can't be choosers and all that.)

 

Good points by both you and Notin--of course. I had no idea Sale's extension price was that small. So, if you're math is right, the Braves get 2 years of Sale for $22M--thanks to the Sox shelling out $17M this year--and can get a 3d year for $18M. I have pointed out (that's me patting myself on the back) that the Braves have yet to start Sale on 5 days rest, which is considered normal. Instead, 6 or 7 days rest. And that sure seems to be working.

 

So this was a good deal for Atlanta and, honestly, a pretty darn good one for Sale at age 35 with a checkered 2019-2023 in his resume. My guess is that no one--not Cora, not Breslow, not whatever "brain trust" still exists in Boston, and not JH himself--on the Sox thought Sale was being reasonable.

 

I have to add, however, that, thanks to the new pitching coach, the Sox rotation this year has been way, way better than expected.

 

Right now the Sox team ERA, 3.53, is 4th best in MLB and the best it's been since 2007, when it was 3.87, but ranked 2d in MLB. Indeed, if we buy moonslav's entirely credible thesis that, because the Sox defense is so awful this season--8 more errors than any other team--we can assume that some of the "earned runs" ain't really earned. So it's possible this is the best Sox pitching staff in, what, 50 years? The giant caveat there is this season is a long way from over.

 

So, while I admit the above is an exaggeration, letting Sale go--at least so far--has not been all that horrible.

Edited July 6, 2024 by Maxbialystock

[notin]

Quite possible, but I think it should also be noted that this was a very, very reasonable extension. He was slated to make $27 mill for 2024, so the extension was one year for $11 mill, plus the Braves got a team option for a third year at $18 mill. He certainly didn't play hardball with them. (Yes, I know, injury-plagued beggars can't be choosers and all that.)

 

I still think that Atlanta’s minor league pitching depth positioned them much better to withstand another Sale injury. I not even Braves’ fan and I can go maybe 10 deep (maybe more?) naming their starter depth chart. With the team I follow, I stop counting at six…

[Bellhorn04]

I still think that Atlanta’s minor league pitching depth positioned them much better to withstand another Sale injury. I not even Braves’ fan and I can go maybe 10 deep (maybe more?) naming their starter depth chart. With the team I follow, I stop counting at six…

 

That's fine, but I fail to see how removing Sale did anything for our depth.

[Duran Is The Man]

That's fine, but I fail to see how removing Sale did anything for our depth.

 

and here we are talking about trading for Crochet or Anderson. nice move Breslow.

[notin]

That's fine, but I fail to see how removing Sale did anything for our depth.

 

I think they very likely questioned if Sale was a reliable part of their rotation depth chart, since he spent the majority of the past 4 years missing in action. Giolito had always been the much surer bet to go out and take the mound every 5 days…

[Bellhorn04]

I think they very likely questioned if Sale was a reliable part of their rotation depth chart, since he spent the majority of the past 4 years missing in action. Giolito had always been the much surer bet to go out and take the mound every 5 days…

 

Fails to address how a team lacking in starter depth gets better by subtracting. You just keep going round the mulberry bush to the injury history because it's all you have.

[notin]

Fails to address how a team lacking in starter depth gets better by subtracting. You just keep going round the mulberry bush to the injury history because it's all you have.

 

Sale was not reliable. Prior to 2034, Giolito was.

 

They weren’t counting on Sale to start. They were counting on Giolito. Sale was a guy they had repeatedly crossed off the depth chart and started looking for a #6 before March ended.

 

I know teams like the Dodgers will give a chance and hope on an injury-prone pitcher. But the Dodgers, like the Braves, have a slew of MLB-ready minor leaguers who can and will step in when injuries become a problem. Boston does not…

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

I don't post often but I lurk a lot. Interesting to see the posts after reading years of posters complaining about Sale, the extension the Sox signed him to and all the rest. I don't recall anyone here promoting they keep and extend him regardless of the contract size.

[Randy Red Sox]

I am not going to argue about Sale but Gioloto has been awful the past few years and now we are going to be paying him 38 million for 1 year if we can even get that out of him. Sox lost the Sale trade HORRIBLY but it was all about cutting payroll so Henry could care less

[Bellhorn04]

I don't post often but I lurk a lot. Interesting to see the posts after reading years of posters complaining about Sale' date=' the extension the Sox signed him to and all the rest. I don't recall anyone here promoting they keep and extend him regardless of the contract size.[/quote']

 

Of course no one was promoting that they extend him. The Sox had a club option for 2025 which meant they could wait the whole 2024 season before deciding whether to exercise it or not.

 

My main argument is that they had little to lose by keeping him. By not keeping him they gained $10 million and a second base prospect. In return for that they surrendered the chance of Sale bouncing back.

[Old Red]

Of course no one was promoting that they extend him. The Sox had a club option for 2025 which meant they could wait the whole 2024 season before deciding whether to exercise it or not.

 

My main argument is that they had little to lose by keeping him. By not keeping him they gained $10 million and a second base prospect. In return for that they surrendered the chance of Sale bouncing back.

 

The $17M the Red Sox are paying the Braves still bugs me, and I don’t care if Grissom was playing like a prospect instead of like a Suspect on, and off the field. The funny part outside of the Braves getting a free CY type performance from Sale this year is that so far he is the healthy one, and Gio, and Grissom are not. Just maybe a change of scenery is all it took for Sale. Like you’ve been saying the Red Sox didn’t have any pitching depth to begin with, and just Swapping Gio for Sale didn’t make it any better.

[Bellhorn04]

Sale was not reliable. Prior to 2034, Giolito was.

 

They weren’t counting on Sale to start. They were counting on Giolito. Sale was a guy they had repeatedly crossed off the depth chart and started looking for a #6 before March ended.

 

I know teams like the Dodgers will give a chance and hope on an injury-prone pitcher. But the Dodgers, like the Braves, have a slew of MLB-ready minor leaguers who can and will step in when injuries become a problem. Boston does not…

 

The Dodgers bet $136 million on Glasnow. That's a lot of chancin' and hopin'...

[Bellhorn04]

The $17M the Red Sox are paying the Braves still bugs me, and I don’t care if Grissom was playing like a prospect instead of like a Suspect on, and off the field. The funny part outside of the Braves getting a free CY type performance from Sale this year is that so far he is the healthy one, and Gio, and Grissom are not. Just maybe a change of scenery is all it took for Sale. Like you’ve been saying the Red Sox didn’t have any pitching depth to begin with, and just Swapping Gio for Sale didn’t make it any better.

 

No, it didn't, and IMHO notin's argument about the Braves having more depth than us explains why it made sense for them, but doesn't explain why it made sense for us.

 

If we kept Sale and he got injured, obviously we'd have to put him on the IL and fill in for him. That's just normal everyday business in a world where pitchers are dropping all over the place. We lost Giolito and Whitlock for the year, and Bello and Pivetta have had IL stints.

[Bellhorn04]

Pretty good data-based article on why the Braves thought Sale was worth taking a chance on.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/chris-sale-trade-three-stats-that-show-why-braves-are-taking-chance-on-veteran-lefty/