Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[moonslav59]

“What if there was an alternate reality where Lester got cancer again” - moon

 

Further proof of your reading things into my statements that just are not there.

 

Go ahead and make that your new signature line.

[mvp 78]

Further proof of your reading things into my statements that just are not there.

 

Go ahead and make that your new signature line.

 

You wrote “imagine what if… his cancer returned.” I didn’t read anything into it.

[moonslav59]

You wrote “imagine what if… his cancer returned.” I didn’t read anything into it.

 

Except this is not what you put in quotation marks.

[mvp 78]

Except this is not what you put in quotation marks.

 

No difference.

[Bellhorn04]

They were all big keys for a ring season, for sure. It's hard to determine, if it was worth it.

 

To those who prefer consistent winning and don't like the cycle results, I'd think these kind of signings are what helped lead to the ups and downs.

 

I thought you were a rings guy. You once said you'd take one ring for nine last place finishes.

 

But now you're not sure signing Foulke or Lackey was worth it? Or are you speaking in terms of how most people see it rather than your own personal take?

 

Help me understand.

[Old Red]

I thought you were a rings guy. You once said you'd take one ring for nine last place finishes.

 

But now you're not sure signing Foulke or Lackey was worth it? Or are you speaking in terms of how most people see it rather than your own personal take?

 

Help me understand.

 

🙈🤭. He never speaks for how other people see things. He thinks he does, but that sure as hell doesn’t make it right. I don’t think most fans think Foulke, or Lackey were not worth it.🤫

[Old Red]

I thought you were a rings guy. You once said you'd take one ring for nine last place finishes.

 

But now you're not sure signing Foulke or Lackey was worth it? Or are you speaking in terms of how most people see it rather than your own personal take?

 

Help me understand.

 

How many fans out there were thinking if the Red Sox had resigned Lester he might have gotten cancer again, and how that would have looked? Good golly Miss Molly!

[Bellhorn04]

How many fans out there were thinking if the Red Sox had resigned Lester he might have gotten cancer again, and how that would have looked? Good golly Miss Molly!

 

moon loves his hypotheticals.

 

Any time you make a big investment in a baseball player you're taking on a lot of risk. There's no way around it.

 

I'd say of all the deals I can't understand anyone regretting, Foulke's would be close to the top.

[Old Red]

moon loves his hypotheticals.

 

Any time you make a big investment in a baseball player you're taking on a lot of risk. There's no way around it.

 

I'd say of all the deals I can't understand anyone regretting, Foulke's would be close to the top.

 

I agree you always take on Risk. Resigning Sale to me was not worth it, nor was signing Yoshida. Story has been a failure so far too.

[Bellhorn04]

In Games 4-6 of the 2004 ALCS, Foulke threw 100 pitches over 3 nights in cold weather. Little wonder his arm was never the same. Tito ended his career for a ring. Foulke never complained about it either.

[Old Red]

In Games 4-6 of the 2004 ALCS, Foulke threw 100 pitches over 3 nights in cold weather. Little wonder his arm was never the same. Tito ended his career for a ring. Foulke never complained about it either.

 

When you’re in the moment you don’t think about what effects may show up later on.

[Bellhorn04]

I suppose you can add in the fact that the 2004 ALCS was probably the most important series in franchise history.

[notin]

In Games 4-6 of the 2004 ALCS, Foulke threw 100 pitches over 3 nights in cold weather. Little wonder his arm was never the same. Tito ended his career for a ring. Foulke never complained about it either.

 

Foulke might never have connected the two. And maybe for good reason…

[jad]

I'm lost. So our FO burner-account contingent (plural) has moved on from justifying Betts' departure to lamenting the signing of those who had success here (Foulke) and longing wistfully albeit hypothetically for a former player's cancer? And I suppose their deniability is such that it now extends to their own unambiguous statements made 5 minutes earlier?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I suppose you can add in the fact that the 2004 ALCS was probably the most important series in franchise history.

 

Without a doubt. The most intense and impactful postseason series are the most indelible on our memories.

 

I still recall details and can see big moments from many Sox' playoffs from this century. I barely remember the actual games from the World Series of '04 and '07.

 

One poster's Top 5 Sox Series this century:

1. '04 ALCS - greatest comeback/payback/choke of all-time.

2. '03 ALCS - worst ending ever, cumulative effect, after '78/'86/'99 etc.

3. '18 WS - hardly a blow-out; Sox won in 5 exciting games helped by three HUGE pinch-hits by Devers, Moreland and Nunez

4. '18 ALCS - highly entertaining offensive and defensive battle between two heavy-weights

5. '18 ALDS - start spreading the news: 16-1 W at the Stadium... but every other game was a total stress-fest

 

Obviously, '18 is the most recent fresh in my mind, but none of those were easy. Honorable mention: '13 ALCS/WS, '07 ALCS, '21 WC, and the underrated '03 ALDS

[Bellhorn04]

Foulke might never have connected the two. And maybe for good reason…

 

It's not unreasonable to draw a connection.

[Hugh2]

I refuse to believe three days of over usage ruined a guys career.

 

Three days of over usage may cause an acute injury. If you’re not coming back from that then it’s because you haven’t put the time and work in to rehabilitate yourself.

 

I think people would be surprised at how much more durable a player can be, and how much longer their careers would be with proper diet and exercise.

[Bellhorn04]

I refuse to believe three days of over usage ruined a guys career.

 

Three days of over usage may cause an acute injury. If you’re not coming back from that then it’s because you haven’t put the time and work in to rehabilitate yourself.

 

I think people would be surprised at how much more durable a player can be, and how much longer their careers would be with proper diet and exercise.

 

This is strictly about pitchers's arms, which are not durable by any stretch of the imagination, due to the unnatural stress placed on joints, tendons and ligaments that are obviously not designed to withstand it.

[Hugh2]

This is strictly about pitchers's arms, which are not durable by any stretch of the imagination, due to the unnatural stress placed on joints, tendons and ligaments that are obviously not designed to withstand it.

 

I’m not arguing against that one bit.

 

I’m saying there’s no 3 day span that can ever ruin a guys career.

 

His arm was either shot from decades of wear and tear, or he never put the same level of effort into his training afterwards to get himself right

[Bellhorn04]

I’m not arguing against that one bit.

 

I’m saying there’s no 3 day span that can ever ruin a guys career.

 

His arm was either shot from decades of wear and tear, or he never put the same level of effort into his training afterwards to get himself right

 

He had already pitched a lot of innings that year, of course, and would pitch more in the rest of the offseason.

 

We can never draw a direct between overuse and injury, but the correlation is obviously there. Otherwise teams wouldn't devote so much attention to managing pitchers' workloads.

[Hugh2]

He had already pitched a lot of innings that year, of course, and would pitch more in the rest of the offseason.

 

We can never draw a direct between overuse and injury, but the correlation is obviously there. Otherwise teams wouldn't devote so much attention to managing pitchers' workloads.

 

The correlation is as strong as startling someone and giving them a heart attack. Did you give them one? Or did years of a s***** diet and leading a sedentary lifestyle lead to a slow build up of plaque inside the arteries.

 

His arm was likely on the brink anyways, and if a three day span caused an acute Injury then that’s something. You get the surgery and rehabilitate yourself. If you’re young and dedicated to your rehab it’s very easy to come back strong.

 

But he didn’t sustain an acute injury, he pitched the very next year in 37 games. Yes he was awful, but he still pitched. He may of had something building up brewing that should have been taken care of earlier.

 

Sounds more chronic than acute. The doesnt happen in three days.

[notin]

It's not unreasonable to draw a connection.

 

I’m not disagreeing with that, but:

 

1. Is Foulke reasonable? I can’t speak for him.

 

2. Foulke is much more aware of his off-season training and workout regimen than we are and might even realize he hurt himself elsewhere

[moonslav59]

I thought you were a rings guy. You once said you'd take one ring for nine last place finishes.

 

But now you're not sure signing Foulke or Lackey was worth it? Or are you speaking in terms of how most people see it rather than your own personal take?

 

Help me understand.

 

"Not sure" is not the same as saying they weren't worth it.

 

For one thing, I'm not sure we couldn't win without Price, or Sale, for that matter.

 

Lackey was more important, IMO, to the ring won than Price. I'm not sure we could have won, without him. I also just showed how he had 3 good seasons out of 5 and 1 okay one, and was the one most worth it out of Price, Lackey and Foulke, because he did give more than just a ring boost season.

 

I do tend to think more about rings, but I'm not a black & white type of person. I enjoy rings and consistent winning teams, but if I had to choose, yes, I'd still take 1 ring and 9 last place finishes over 10 second place seasons and no rings. It's not a slam dunk position in my mind.

[moonslav59]

moon loves his hypotheticals.

 

Any time you make a big investment in a baseball player you're taking on a lot of risk. There's no way around it.

 

I'd say of all the deals I can't understand anyone regretting, Foulke's would be close to the top.

 

I have never said we should not have signed Foulke, Lackey or Price, even in hindsight. In fact, I have said the opposite. I was fine with the Price signing and said it was "necessary." I make a comment about how his whole body of work "might not have been worth it," as he was a part of the Betts trade to cut salary and minimized our return, and it's like I'm saying it was an awful signing. It wasn't, and I didn't say it was.

 

I defended the Lackey signing.

 

I think the 3 years of Foulke is not in the same boat as 5 for Lackey and 7 for Price.

 

1 great year that led to a ring, and without him we don't win, for sure, out of 3 is not bad.

 

3 out of 5 seasons for Lackey, with only one bad year was a good signing.

 

2 years out of 7 for Price is questionable, especially since it's not a clear point that we could not have won it all in 2018, without him. (My guess is, we'd have signed someone else.) I'm sure glad we had him in 2018, and he helped us win more games than lose in a couple other seasons, but that contract was a drain. To me, there is no clear answer on Price. I was fine with us signing him, and we won a ring with him. That may or may not outweigh the rest. I have no firm yes or no answer on him.

[moonslav59]

I refuse to believe three days of over usage ruined a guys career.

 

Three days of over usage may cause an acute injury. If you’re not coming back from that then it’s because you haven’t put the time and work in to rehabilitate yourself.

 

I think people would be surprised at how much more durable a player can be, and how much longer their careers would be with proper diet and exercise.

 

He pitched more innings in another season, earlier than 2004, even counting the playoffs. He routinely pitched near or over 80 high leverage innings. It is more likely, a few years of this took its toll, than one season or 3 game stretch.

 

I agree, but who can ever know, for sure?

[dgalehouse]

I will always remember these three words from Joe Castiglione: " Stabbed by Foulke". And thus ended an 86 year curse. I have absolutely no regrets about the acquisition of Keith Foulke. I would buy him a beer anytime. And a whopper from Burger King.

[Randy Red Sox]

In Games 4-6 of the 2004 ALCS, Foulke threw 100 pitches over 3 nights in cold weather. Little wonder his arm was never the same. Tito ended his career for a ring. Foulke never complained about it either.

 

ii totally agree. i remember him striking out a Yankee slugger on a 3-2 pitch with the bases juiced and it was 88n MPH. it was all he had left

[moonslav59]

Foulke is a hero.

 

No regrets.

 

Plus, it was only a 3 year deal.

[Old Red]

Excitement is in the air.: The Red Sox equipment truck is being loaded as we speak, and will be heading to Florida later today. I can hardly wait for March 28, and for the season to get started. Things are going to be AWESOME!

[mvp 78]

The correlation is as strong as startling someone and giving them a heart attack. Did you give them one? Or did years of a s***** diet and leading a sedentary lifestyle lead to a slow build up of plaque inside the arteries.

 

His arm was likely on the brink anyways, and if a three day span caused an acute Injury then that’s something. You get the surgery and rehabilitate yourself. If you’re young and dedicated to your rehab it’s very easy to come back strong.

 

But he didn’t sustain an acute injury, he pitched the very next year in 37 games. Yes he was awful, but he still pitched. He may of had something building up brewing that should have been taken care of earlier.

 

Sounds more chronic than acute. The doesnt happen in three days.

 

He pitched 5 innings in a 3 day stretch! Do you know what that does to the person's molecular structure? It basically turns their shoulder and elbow into a black hole made out of paper maché.