Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

They went slow with the starters in April and the team never caught back up. One bad year shouldn’t doom a franchise though considering what we’re looking at now.

 

No fans in '19 knew the residual damage on Sox pitchers from winning the previous postseason by throwing a month longer in high leverage situations out of regular routines. But it's a good bet the manager, coaches, and players on the field, in the dugout and in the bullpen knew.

 

And it's not like the truth was going to come out then, lest it give opponents an edge (and that includes opposing GMs, looking to exploit a need for trade reinforcements). Nor is it likely for any pitcher to confess now, lest it sound like an excuse.

 

It's no surprise the Sox' best starter in '19 was the one most rested from pitching the least amount in the '18 postseason: ERod.

[jad]

JBJ had a similar incident too. At least with Price he was standing up for a teammate. IDK. Bad look. Players nowadays have been coddled since tball and any criticism just wilts them.

 

I was thinking of that as the same incident, but you're right, they were separate. I had been a big fan of JBJ before that, and never gave a cr*p about him since.

[notin]

I simply have a suspicion that part of the reason the O's new owners pushed this trade was that they will try to extend him. I don't think that's totally off the wall.

 

Absolutely.

 

Of course, trying to extend him is meaningless until it happens.

 

Angelos probably never would have extended. The new owners are complete unknowns, so anything is possible.

 

If nothing else, new ownership should get bonus points for making a splash literally on Day One…

[mvp 78]

No fans in '19 knew the residual damage on Sox pitchers from winning the previous postseason by throwing a month longer in high leverage situations out of regular routines. But it's a good bet the manager, coaches, and players on the field, in the dugout and in the bullpen knew.

 

And it's not like the truth was going to come out then, lest it give opponents an edge (and that includes opposing GMs, looking to exploit a need for trade reinforcements). Nor is it likely for any pitcher to confess now, lest it sound like an excuse.

 

It's no surprise the Sox' best starter in '19 was the one most rested from pitching the least amount in the '18 postseason: ERod.

 

I’m not saying how Cora handled the pitchers in 18 or 19 was wrong. Henry’s reaction to 19 was though. I think tearing the whole thing down over 4 years was a horrible way to do it. Instead of a 4-5 year rebuild, it’s now a 6-8.

[notin]

David Price was a very good pitcher. A winner. He gets way too much criticism on here. 46-24 with Boston. 157-82 career. 66 % winning percentage . Only one losing season, 12-13. ( I know, I know. Here we go again. Wins don't matter ) His career ERA of 3.32 is better than a lot of more highly regarded hurlers. Deserves more respect than he gets.

 

His 3.32 ERA is largely carried by what he did in Tampa and Detroit. His 3.84 ERA in Boston was respectable. But at age 31, it was the a wrong time to give him the largest and longest contract in team history. Especially with all the young talent the Six had that could have been extended (assuming they were amenable). And Price was great his first year, but his last 3 were mediocre at best. In 4 full seasons in Boston, Price was only worth 10.3 fWAR, 4.4 of which came in his first year. Over that stretch, he was outperformed by Rick Porcello, who signed a shorter, cheaper deal at a younger age.

 

In the end, the Price contract was part of the huge salary mess that lead to dismantling the 2018 team in favor of the cheaper, less effective team you see today…

[mvp 78]

They signed Price because they realized the mistake they made in letting Lester go. This team has a habit of making dumb decisions based on faulty ownership reasoning and then playing cleanup a year or two later.

[notin]

They signed Price because they realized the mistake they made in letting Lester go. This team has a habit of making dumb decisions based on faulty ownership reasoning and then playing cleanup a year or two later.

 

I’d have greatly preferred Lester…

[mvp 78]

I’d have greatly preferred Lester…

 

Price wasn’t much of a step up at the time and fans prefer continuity over the grass is greener. The Lester decision was mind boggling. Making black and white declarations like “no pitchers over 30” always comes back to haunt you too. It was just an instance of Henry bullying Ben.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Price was a poor loser on Tampa when Big Papi took him deep. He had a good two-week run in '18, but his career postseason ERA was 4.62. For the Red Sox, he couldn't beat the Yankees, then he couldn't pitch in Yankee Stadium, then he couldn't pitch night games, then he couldn't pitch because of a video game injury. He disrespected Eck, and in my opinion was one of the reasons the Sox traded Mookie. That price was not worth the cost.

[moonslav59]

They signed Price because they realized the mistake they made in letting Lester go. This team has a habit of making dumb decisions based on faulty ownership reasoning and then playing cleanup a year or two later.

 

This pretty much sums it all up.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm firmly in the 'flags fly forever' camp about Price, and Lackey as well, and don't forget Foulke either, who bombed out after 2004.

 

Shouldn't really complain that much about moves that can be directly tied to hoisting the trophy, IMHO

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'm firmly in the 'flags fly forever' camp about Price, and Lackey as well, and don't forget Foulke either, who bombed out after 2004.

 

Shouldn't really complain that much about moves that can be directly tied to hoisting the trophy, IMHO

 

I noticed you didn't mention Schilling, which is even a hard name to type these days. As far as Fenway flags, both he and Foulke sacrificed careers for rings in Boston.

 

But Price will always be connected with the unforgivable Betts trade.

[moonslav59]

I’m not saying how Cora handled the pitchers in 18 or 19 was wrong. Henry’s reaction to 19 was though. I think tearing the whole thing down over 4 years was a horrible way to do it. Instead of a 4-5 year rebuild, it’s now a 6-8.

 

I agree that the tear down was premature and too extreme, but they dragged out the rebuild by playing it half-way, too often. They kept trying to pretend we were going to be competitive, and the success of the 2021 team convinced them it was working.

 

Yes, they should have kept the core together, longer, but had the traded a few more players, earlier, or instead of letting them walk for nothing, the rebuild might have been just 3-5 years long, not 6-8.

 

The comp pick slot drop due to foolishly going over the tax line was unforgivable. The one year we lose two top players for comp picks, we choose to go over the tax line in a failed sham season.

 

The non trades of Sale, when he had moree value, JD, Nate, ERod, JBJ and even lesser players like Hill, Strahm, Wacha and others were all opportunities lost.

 

We all know Bogey had a no-trade clause, but I do believe he'd have agreed to be traded, if they just owned up to him about no extension being possible. If they had convinced themselves they had a shot at extending him, that makes them look even worse.

 

Trying to walk the line of looking respectable while rebuilding makes it hard to do either.

 

[moonslav59]

I'm firmly in the 'flags fly forever' camp about Price, and Lackey as well, and don't forget Foulke either, who bombed out after 2004.

 

Shouldn't really complain that much about moves that can be directly tied to hoisting the trophy, IMHO

 

They were all big keys for a ring season, for sure. It's hard to determine, if it was worth it.

 

To those who prefer consistent winning and don't like the cycle results, I'd think these kind of signings are what helped lead to the ups and downs.

[moonslav59]

Price wasn’t much of a step up at the time and fans prefer continuity over the grass is greener. The Lester decision was mind boggling. Making black and white declarations like “no pitchers over 30” always comes back to haunt you too. It was just an instance of Henry bullying Ben.

 

I think you are totally right, on this, but imagine what this whole Lester narrative would have been like had he decline, got injured or if his cancer returned, right after an extension.

 

I realize most of us wanted him back, at the time, so this is not really hindsight judging, but my guess is, we'd have a whole different take, if that one over 30 pitchers ended up doing like many do: decline.

[jad]

They were all big keys for a ring season, for sure. It's hard to determine, if it was worth it.

 

To those who prefer consistent winning and don't like the cycle results, I'd think these kind of signings are what helped lead to the ups and downs.

 

True enough. But what I as a fan want is a line-up I recognize from year to year, not one that replaces one set of familiar journeymen with another set of unknown ones. (As for stars, maybe keeping the ones you have.)

[moonslav59]

True enough. But what I as a fan want is a line-up I recognize from year to year, not one that replaces one set of familiar journeymen with another set of unknown ones. (As for stars, maybe keeping the ones you have.)

 

I get that, but Price, Lackey and Foulke were all signed for multiple years to be just what you want the team to have- year-to-year, recognizable players.

 

The problem was, none of them stayed healthy. None of them came close to giving us consistent production. All of them ate up a chunk of budget space that limited filling other need areas. All contributed to the ups and downs many fans abhor. (We still did okay with Foulke on the '05 and '06 teams, but won just 86 games in '06.)

[notin]

Price was a poor loser on Tampa when Big Papi took him deep. He had a good two-week run in '18, but his career postseason ERA was 4.62. For the Red Sox, he couldn't beat the Yankees, then he couldn't pitch in Yankee Stadium, then he couldn't pitch night games, then he couldn't pitch because of a video game injury. He disrespected Eck, and in my opinion was one of the reasons the Sox traded Mookie. That price was not worth the cost.

 

I’m not on board with all of this, but I do agree with some. Mostly the last one since I’ve been saying it for several years…

[vegasbob]

David Price reminds me of that cautionary warning from the scorpion to the frog offering a ride across the pond, if the scorpion wouldn't sting him. After the sting, the scorpion says , but you knew who I was before you set out.

 

Has there been any Red Sox addition via Tampa Bay Rays that worked out well, including Bloom ?

[dgalehouse]

If part of the reason for trading Mookie Betts was to get rid of David Price ( while still paying half his salary) then they are even dumber and cheaper than I thought.

[moonslav59]

If part of the reason for trading Mookie Betts was to get rid of David Price ( while still paying half his salary) then they are even dumber and cheaper than I thought.

 

I think the Sox were trading Betts, no matter what. I think they felt adding Price was a way to save even more money, even if it lessened the return value or teams interested in making offers.

 

Yes, they are that cheap.

[notin]

If part of the reason for trading Mookie Betts was to get rid of David Price ( while still paying half his salary) then they are even dumber and cheaper than I thought.

 

They wanted to unload as much money as possible and those two were the highest paid players on the team. That they couldn’t agree on an extension with Betts was also undoubtedly a factor…

[notin]

I think the Sox were trading Betts, no matter what. I think they felt adding Price was a way to save even more money, even if it lessened the return value or teams interested in making offers.

 

Yes, they are that cheap.

 

That they did do.

 

I thought they could have dealt Price for (ugh) Wil Myers. Price was owed more money ($26mill more) but even if no cash changed hands, 3 years of Price for $26mill net seemed like a good deal. And Myers really low AAV added even more savings for Boston.

 

But no such deal materialized. Possibly San Diego want so enthusiastic…

[moonslav59]

That they did do.

 

I thought they could have dealt Price for (ugh) Wil Myers. Price was owed more money ($26mill more) but even if no cash changed hands, 3 years of Price for $26mill net seemed like a good deal. And Myers really low AAV added even more savings for Boston.

 

But no such deal materialized. Possibly San Diego want so enthusiastic…

 

The Padres were the only other team rumored to be in on the Betts trade. If I'm not mistaken, Myers was part of their talk or offer, but w/o Price.

 

When people say, "We could have gotten more for Betts," I tend to think that is true, but I just don't think anyone was offering much better than what we got. It seems strange.

 

I think we also see how poorly the Jeter Downs part of the trade worked out, and it's easy to think, "Yes, we could have done better," but at the time, he was pretty highly regarded.

[notin]

The Padres were the only other team rumored to be in on the Betts trade. If I'm not mistaken, Myers was part of their talk or offer, but w/o Price.

 

When people say, "We could have gotten more for Betts," I tend to think that is true, but I just don't think anyone was offering much better than what we got. It seems strange.

 

I think we also see how poorly the Jeter Downs part of the trade worked out, and it's easy to think, "Yes, we could have done better," but at the time, he was pretty highly regarded.

 

 

Oh I wasn’t talking about Betts to the Padres. Just Price.

 

I would imagine their willingness to dump Myers and not take on Price is a big reason they’re pitching to Betts today as opposed to letting the Dodgers do it…

[notin]

The Padres were the only other team rumored to be in on the Betts trade. If I'm not mistaken, Myers was part of their talk or offer, but w/o Price.

 

When people say, "We could have gotten more for Betts," I tend to think that is true, but I just don't think anyone was offering much better than what we got. It seems strange.

 

I think we also see how poorly the Jeter Downs part of the trade worked out, and it's easy to think, "Yes, we could have done better," but at the time, he was pretty highly regarded.

 

If we look back, the Padres offer was something like Myers, and a lot of names like Lucchesi, Quantrill, Campusano, and Josh Naylor, with Naylor being the only one who would have been close to being worthwhile…

[Randy Red Sox]

I get that, but Price, Lackey and Foulke were all signed for multiple years to be just what you want the team to have- year-to-year, recognizable players.

 

The problem was, none of them stayed healthy. None of them came close to giving us consistent production. All of them ate up a chunk of budget space that limited filling other need areas. All contributed to the ups and downs many fans abhor. (We still did okay with Foulke on the '05 and '06 teams, but won just 86 games in '06.)

 

Keith Foulk was the best of these signings and gave the team all he had but they burned him out and his career was cut short

[moonslav59]

Keith Foulk was the best of these signings and gave the team all he had but they burned him out and his career was cut short

 

83 IP + 14 in the PO's is astounding, in today's game, for a closer, byt the guy pitched more innings in a previous season and very close in a few others:

 

105 in '99 as a closer

88 + 2 in '00 (90)

81 in '01

78 in '02

87 + 5 in '03 (92) w OAK

 

83+14= 97 in 2004

 

Price had one really good season (2018), too and 2016 was pretty good, too. The injury in '17 hurt, but his first 3 year totals were very good:

 

481 IP

3.74 ERA (119 ERA+)

3.76 FIP

1.18 WHIP

 

After 4 years, his FIP was even better at 3.74, but his ERA was 3.84 (118 ERA+)

 

Lackey gave us 1.5 good seasons, including the 2013 ring year and he gave STL 1.5 good seasons, too. That's 3 out of 5 plus a not too bad first year w BOS.

 

Last 3 years of contract:

605 IP (avg 200+)

3.35 ERA (119 ERA+ was the same as Price's for less than half the cost)

3.73 FIP

 

He has a 3.85 FIP in 215 IP, year one (2010.)

[moonslav59]

If we look back, the Padres offer was something like Myers, and a lot of names like Lucchesi, Quantrill, Campusano, and Josh Naylor, with Naylor being the only one who would have been close to being worthwhile…

 

Some would have been better than Downs, but maybe not Dugo. Lucchesi and Quantrill both have had 2 decent seasons mixed in with some not-so-good ones.

 

Campusano is still just 24 and had a nice season in '23.

[mvp 78]

I think you are totally right, on this, but imagine what this whole Lester narrative would have been like had he decline, got injured or if his cancer returned, right after an extension.

 

I realize most of us wanted him back, at the time, so this is not really hindsight judging, but my guess is, we'd have a whole different take, if that one over 30 pitchers ended up doing like many do: decline.

 

“What if there was an alternate reality where Lester got cancer again” - moon