A Realistic View of 2023: Part II

[cp176]

If that band wagon goes by my house one more time, I might just have to jump on.

[Bellhorn04]

Proof of clutch = Tom Brady vs. Aaron Rodgers.

[jad]

Clutch, if it exists, is absurdly easy to document. And anyone with minimal statistical skills can do it, and end this debate.

 

1) Define a clutch situation (doesn't need to be all that precise).

2) Are there players over a long span (50 games? a year?) who do better than others in these situations? (of course)

3) Do those players do as well (or better) in those situations than they do in other situations?

4) Are these results the same for other 50-game or season-long spans? (That's the important part.)

 

Make a nice, detailed chart of teh results and post them here. (You know, there are people who actually do such things.)

Then we have a basis for discussion, rather than referring to our Uncle George who once hit a rocket to left-center in his high-school semi-finals for teh league championship on an 0-2 count.

[mvp 78]

What a difference one week can make.

 

It's funny, because this team still has the same major flaws we have been picking apart for a long time, but suddenly it looks like just about every trade and signing Bloom has made- recent and now back to the Betts deal, is turning to gold before our eyes.

 

Kluber

The plan for the rest of the rotation

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Clutch, if it exists, is absurdly easy to document. And anyone with minimal statistical skills can do it, and end this debate.

 

1) Define a clutch situation (doesn't need to be all that precise).

2) Are there players over a long span (50 games? a year?) who do better than others in these situations? (of course)

3) Do those players do as well (or better) in those situations than they do in other situations?

4) Are these results the same for other 50-game or season-long spans? (That's the important part.)

 

Make a nice, detailed chart of teh results and post them here. (You know, there are people who actually do such things.)

Then we have a basis for discussion, rather than referring to our Uncle George who once hit a rocket to left-center in his high-school semi-finals for teh league championship on an 0-2 count.

 

It was a hanging curve -- they should'nt have thrown it anywhere near his bat... that pitcher gagged.

[mvp 78]

Clutch, if it exists, is absurdly easy to document. And anyone with minimal statistical skills can do it, and end this debate.

 

1) Define a clutch situation (doesn't need to be all that precise).

2) Are there players over a long span (50 games? a year?) who do better than others in these situations? (of course)

3) Do those players do as well (or better) in those situations than they do in other situations?

4) Are these results the same for other 50-game or season-long spans? (That's the important part.)

 

Make a nice, detailed chart of teh results and post them here. (You know, there are people who actually do such things.)

Then we have a basis for discussion, rather than referring to our Uncle George who once hit a rocket to left-center in his high-school semi-finals for teh league championship on an 0-2 count.

 

The people referring to UNCLE GEORGE are the ones stating that clutch doesn't exist. The people who believe clutch exists have brought up specific examples of players: Brady, Papi, Schilling, etc.

[mvp 78]

It was a hanging curve -- they should'nt have thrown it anywhere near his bat... that pitcher gagged.

 

That pitcher was most likely Mark Melancon.

[Hugh2]

Clutch is real....in the form of reverse clutch.

 

People fold under pressure. Those who have the mental acuity to maintain their composure reap the benefits.

 

Maybe this seems like a semantics battle. I believe in "clutch" I just now it manifests itself a little differently than people think.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The people referring to UNCLE GEORGE are the ones stating that clutch doesn't exist. The people who believe clutch exists have brought up specific examples of players: Brady, Papi, Schilling, etc.

 

I'll bet most of our Uncle Georges are the better players we've known who didn't go pro. But if we agree all those who make the majors are the best of the Georges, how many have repeated heroics in the big leagues more than a couple times?

 

For those who argue that those few are the very best, can we at least agree that it usually takes more than just superior physical skills to reach potential?

 

And if that's a given, then what defines that X factor that allows rare athletes to slow the game down at the same time it's speeding up on everyone else?

 

Do some guys actually have a way to sharpen their focus in big moments... or are they just lazy in the MLB because everyday at anything becomes a boring job, but then just try harder when it matters most on a big stage?

[mvp 78]

Clutch is real....in the form of reverse clutch.

 

People fold under pressure. Those who have the mental acuity to maintain their composure reap the benefits.

 

Maybe this seems like a semantics battle. I believe in "clutch" I just now it manifests itself a little differently than people think.

 

A definition that someone can stay calm under intense pressure and perform as normal rather than get shaky?

[mvp 78]

I'll bet most of our Uncle Georges are the better players we've known who didn't go pro. But if we agree all those who make the majors are the best of the Georges, how many have repeated heroics in the big leagues more than a couple times?

 

For those who argue that those few are the very best, can we at least agree that it usually takes more than just superior physical skills to reach potential?

 

And if that's a given, then what defines that X factor that allows rare athletes to slow the game down at the same time it's speeding up on everyone else?

 

Do some guys actually have a way to sharpen their focus in big moments... or are they just lazy in the MLB because everyday at anything becomes a boring job, but then just try harder when it matters most on a big stage?

 

My definition of clutch is someone that just doesn't get rattled when there is additional pressure, not that they get better. Some relievers are great in the 7th and 8th inning, but when you put them in the 9th they just fall apart.

[Hugh2]

A definition that someone can stay calm under intense pressure and perform as normal rather than get shaky?

 

Exactly. As someone who has competed as a professional athlete (many moons ago and not baseball) I find this to be true. People who let their adrenaline get to them make mistakes, tire out quickly, and often get sloppy. Id' say anyone who says differently has never competed competitively on a pro level of anything before.

 

Having the ability to muster up some extra "strength" or "adrenaline" alone is not an uncommon skill and alone does NOT make you a better player, as a matter of fact, it can make you a worse player.

 

Example.

 

We've all seen a pitcher who can reach back and add an extra 2-4 MPH on his fastball and completely lose his mechanics and control. The ability to physically add something more is not special, but we have ALSO all seen the guy who can do the same exact thing in a tight situation and keep his command. What's the difference???? It's all in the head. It's mental acuity, it's the ability to "maintain ones composure"

Edited May 4, 2023 by A Red Sox fan named Hugh

[jad]

The people referring to UNCLE GEORGE are the ones stating that clutch doesn't exist. The people who believe clutch exists have brought up specific examples of players: Brady, Papi, Schilling, etc.

 

It doesn't matter who you BELIEVE is clutch or not. I just want to see the simple statistic. Did Brady, Papi, Schilling perform better in clutch situations than they did in other situations? Show me the math.

[jad]

It was a hanging curve -- they should'nt have thrown it anywhere near his bat... that pitcher gagged.

 

Wait. Uncle George swears it was a 98mph slider on the outside corner!

[mvp 78]

It doesn't matter who you BELIEVE is clutch or not. I just want to see the simple statistic. Did Brady, Papi, Schilling perform better in clutch situations than they did in other situations? Show me the math.

 

That's not a definition of clutch I believe in.

[moonslav59]

I'm sorry to have to say this, but most of the players who I considered clutch players didn't necessarily tell people that they were.

In my world, there are many who come through more often in the big moments - clutch. There are many more who don't - choke.

 

If a ball struck off the bat of Casas can have an estimated batting average of .850 - (what does that even mean?) then I guess it is ok to truly think that clutch and choke are two things that do exist.

 

Not sure what the first sentence is getting at, but one could wonder how someone knows everyone who does not believe in clutch as a skill can not have been clutch in their lifetime.

 

Nobody disagrees about some players coming through in clutch moments vs many that don't. The issue is whether it is a skill or not, or maybe just random luck.

Edited May 4, 2023 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

Does anybody really believe Brady was better in the clutch than Rodgers strictly because of luck?

[mvp 78]

Does anybody really believe Brady was better in the clutch than Rodgers strictly because of luck?

 

Packers fans maybe?

[Bellhorn04]

Packers fans maybe?

 

And moon is one.

[cp176]

Not sure what the first sentence is getting at, but one could wonder how someone knows everyone who does not believe in clutch as a skill can not have been clutch in their lifetime.

 

Nobody disagrees about some players coming through in clutch moments vs many that don't. The issue is whether it is a skill or not, or maybe just random luck.

 

So let me try to clear things up - You saying that you must have been randomly lucky back in your day seemed to me that you were saying that you likely were a clutch player. Most of the clutch players that I have known and worked with, often times didn't realize that they were nor did it matter. They seemed to have been made for the bigger moments. Hope that helps.

 

Now maybe you can tell me what was meant by the statement that I read that the ball Casas hit last night with the bases loaded had an estimated batting average of .850?

[cp176]

And moon is one.

 

moon was clutch - don't bug him. lol

[moonslav59]

And moon is one.

 

I'm a Packer fan and do not think it is bad luck. I think coaching is part of it, but it's more about Rodgers not taking chances for interceptions no matter what the circumstances are. He just takes the sack or throws it away.

 

Some QBs take a while to figure out defensive schemes and do better late.

 

I remember cringing when people called Elway "clutch," when the main reason he had so many comeback wins, was because he sucked and put his team behind early, so often. I'd like to see how many game Denver was behind in, those years.

[Hugh2]

Reverse clutch is the only real clutch. Facts of life my friends.

[Bellhorn04]

I remember cringing when people called Elway "clutch," when the main reason he had so many comeback wins, was because he sucked and put his team behind early, so often. I'd like to see how many game Denver was behind in, those years.

 

That's better than falling behind and not coming back, mind you.

[Bellhorn04]

Reverse clutch is the only real clutch. Facts of life my friends.

 

What about Brady? You don't think some guys have that ability to rise to an occasion, to flourish under pressure?

[jad]

That's not a definition of clutch I believe in.

 

Good. Then define 'clutch' as 'performing normally in situations defined as clutch.' Again, show me the stats. If that's all clutch means: not 'choking' in key situations, ok, fine. But again, what are the stats to prove this? I assume Manny and Papi would do that. But we're not talking about the eye-test or memories of the heroics of Uncle George.

 

Shouldn't those stats be obvious and easily obtainable? Surely more than dWAR or CERA or launch angle or all the other incomprehensible things that get talked about here as if they weren't in the least bit problematic.

[mvp 78]

Good. Then define 'clutch' as 'performing normally in situations defined as clutch.' Again, show me the stats.

 

No.

[Hugh2]

What about Brady? You don't think some guys have that ability to rise to an occasion, to flourish under pressure?

 

Performing on par when someone else folds equals the same exact results.

 

For example. Lets say player A is not clutch, but not not clutch either (we are going by believers in clutch in it's non-reverse clutch permutation here, I hope I haven't lost you). Player A is batting while Pitcher X throws a meatball to him. Pitcher X is anxious and folds under pressure. He serves up a meatball to Player A, player A hits it out of the park. Was player A clutch? or did pitcher X fold?

 

It's like 2X2 = 4, but 2+2 = 4 as well. You get the same results, but it's two completely different formulas.

 

We see this play out in real-time. There's no factor that allows a guy to reach into his physiology more than other people. A pitcher reaching back and adding 2-3 MPH to his fastball is not an uncommon trait, but we see some guys lose their control while they do it and others are able to keep it. IT'S MENTAL. It's all about mental acuity. Clutch players are able to maintain their composure while others are not. If you're able to do that, and lets say 25% of pitchers can not, without ANY uptick in skill level ALL of your stats are going to be beefed up. That's pretty straightforward, just like 2X2=4, or 1 2 3 as some would say.

 

When I competed as a pro athlete, I found this to be very real. Some guys let the adrenaline get to them and it's actually overusing your strength and trying to do more that leads to less. It's the guys who are able to control their emotions that outperform. And while I do believe some human beings have a pre-disposition to control their emotions it's also a teachable skill. The more experience you have, the better you can become at controlling those emotions.

 

Clutch, is emotions, it's the ability to control them and not let your anxiety lead you to underperform in a tight situation. It's all about Mental acuity.

 

So yes, I do believe in clutch. Clutch is very real. I just see it as 2X2 = 4 where others are saying 2+2 = 4.

[Hugh2]

No.

 

I kind of answer his question above. The STATS ARE THE SAME!!!! haha.

 

2X2=4

2+2=4

[Nick]

Boring. Get a new topic line. Clutch. What is it? Is it real? Characteristics of clutch . Learned behavior or born with it? Is it generational? Edited May 4, 2023 by Nick