A Realistic View of 2023: Part II

[mvp 78]

What would qualify as a huge change during this season? If they fire Cora, the roster will stillDid be the roster. If they have a fire sale, what trade bait can possibly return an actual prospect or young talent who can be part of a core going forward? Jansen? Verdugo? Devers???? (would it make any sense to deal Bello-Whitlock-Houck or Mayer-Rafaela-Drohan-Hickey-Anthony?)

 

I didn't listen to the podcast Rosenthal was on. Will have to give it a shot and let you all know what he said about the changes.

[Dipre]

Players liking Cora hasn’t made a difference in the WL record, so no big deal on that plus JH rehired Cora not Bloom.

 

But it helps keep morale manageable during a very trying season. Remember, players are human beings, and that's part of managing a baseball team.

[Old Red]

But it helps keep morale manageable during a very trying season. Remember, players are human beings, and that's part of managing a baseball team.

 

I bet improving the WL record would be the best thing for morale.

[moonslav59]

You're absolutely right, but it's still a depressing situation.

 

Yes, right now. I agree.

 

I will say, I am getting closer to the point many seemingly have already reached, and some were at before the season even started, but I still have significant hopes we right the ship.

 

My main area of optimism is that our weakest area- the rotation- looks to be greatly improving, and our second worst area- defense- should improve, now that Kike is no longer the SS, and the returning Duvall and eventually Story should help as well.

 

Of course, the bats could stay dormant, but to me that is not expected.

 

It is depressing, right now, so it is what it is.

[Old Red]

But it helps keep morale manageable during a very trying season. Remember, players are human beings, and that's part of managing a baseball team.

 

I don’t think Cora, and Bloom are seeing eye to eye anyway.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I didn't listen to the podcast Rosenthal was on. Will have to give it a shot and let you all know what he said about the changes.

 

I found some quotes. He said Paxton and Duvall, but not Kike, could bring a "decent" return at the deadline. I'd think Duvall has to show his wrist is fully healed with some consistent power before then.

 

Rosenthal said fans would be ok with dealing Jansen (I'm one, if he's the biggest chip this summer). He doesn't think Verdugo will be moved -- if Bloom plans on contending in '24...

[moonslav59]

Sorry, I pulled the Pythagoreon W/L for Bloom.

 

20 .400

21 .568

22 .481

23 .493

 

Take away 2021, which many viewed as an aberration, anyway, and I can see steady growth, but minimal growth, of late.

 

.400 to .493. In 3 more years, we should be at .586!

 

LOL!

[Dipre]

I bet improving the WL record would be the best thing for morale.

 

I never thought of it that way

[moonslav59]

I never thought of it that way

 

Just don't say improving metrics improves the W-L record.

[vegasbob]

You're absolutely right, but it's still a depressing situation.

 

And if Bloom tried to lock him up for another year now, there is the not insignificant risk of a subsequent injury a la Sale. Also Paxton at his age probably only has one shot at a 3 year deal for $30-$35 million and he owes it to himself to be available for it.

[vegasbob]

I don’t think Cora, and Bloom are seeing eye to eye anyway.

 

So, am I getting the consensus of numerous inputs outside TalkSox that Bloom directed Cora to pull Kike off SS ? It sounds that way to me. Bad blood brewing on that one. Cora laughs while saying that Kike has to go to SS in late innings since Cora had to PH for Reyes . This dynamic will get more interesting at trade deadline if Bloom DOES what he did NOT do last year and scalp the roster of players over 30.

[moonslav59]

So, am I getting the consensus of numerous inputs outside TalkSox that Bloom directed Cora to pull Kike off SS ? It sounds that way to me. Bad blood brewing on that one. Cora laughs while saying that Kike has to go to SS in late innings since Cora had to PH for Reyes . This dynamic will get more interesting at trade deadline if Bloom DOES what he did NOT do last year and scalp the roster of players over 30.

 

Maybe Bloom with solve the issue by just trading Kike and cash at the deadline.

[Old Red]

I never thought of it that way

 

Right now there seems to be a lot of moving parts with pretty much only Raffy, and Dugy knowing where they will be on a nightly basis, and playing at all, which could lead to more disfavor especially if the losses continue.

[Old Red]

So, am I getting the consensus of numerous inputs outside TalkSox that Bloom directed Cora to pull Kike off SS ? It sounds that way to me. Bad blood brewing on that one. Cora laughs while saying that Kike has to go to SS in late innings since Cora had to PH for Reyes . This dynamic will get more interesting at trade deadline if Bloom DOES what he did NOT do last year and scalp the roster of players over 30.

I got that impression with the Kike comment too, but what Cora didn’t say was he’s PH for Kike 2-3 times lately.

[Old Red]

Kike is riding the bench again tonight.

[mvp 78]

Players liking Cora hasn’t made a difference in the WL record, so no big deal on that plus JH rehired Cora not Bloom.

 

We don't know that. The Sox could have been much worse without Cora. Remember 2020?

[Old Red]

We don't know that. The Sox could have been much worse without Cora. Remember 2020?

 

I don’t think it would have made a difference in 2020 if Tito, Dick Williams, or Don Zimmer would have been the manager. Even Bobby V.

[mvp 78]

I don’t think it would have made a difference in 2020 if Tito, Dick Williams, or Don Zimmer would have been the manager. Even Bobby V.

 

I'm just saying that it could be worse!

[Old Red]

I'm just saying that it could be worse!

 

Agree.

[oldtimer]

Maybe Bloom with solve the issue by just trading Kike and cash at the deadline.

 

My impression is that Kike has one of Cora's favorites. He did well in center field and had periods where he hit decently, but he came to us as a utility player and at $10 mil a year, I don't see where he is returning that much value to the team. It has been a problem for the Sox that high cost players such as Sale and also Story have also not returned anywhere near the their cost in Value whereas young players like Bello, Whitlock and Houck are solid value players have. It's time for Bloom to reassess his strategy in a decisive manner. I don't see the AL East as getting less competitive in 2024, we have to get much better.

[moonslav59]

We don't know that. The Sox could have been much worse without Cora. Remember 2020?

 

2020 should always be viewed as a write off, and for several reasons.

 

1. Short season.

2. Massive budget cuts that included the Betts/Price salary-savings trade.

3. No Sale and Erod due to injuries.

4. In terms of farm building, the shorter draft and loss of a full season of player development has to factor into the evaluation.

 

If you start the clock from 2021, it looks like we have gone backwards on MLB win-losses.

 

In terms of improving the budget, advances were clearly made.

 

In terms of improving the farm and team-controlled roster depth, advances seem to be made, but mush is speculative and unproven. (Most of Bloom's farm additions are still 1-4 years from the bigs and 2-6 years from being mature enough to expect major contributions, so that part of the grading may end up happening after he is cone.)

[Maxbialystock]

Yes, right now. I agree.

 

I will say, I am getting closer to the point many seemingly have already reached, and some were at before the season even started, but I still have significant hopes we right the ship.

 

My main area of optimism is that our weakest area- the rotation- looks to be greatly improving, and our second worst area- defense- should improve, now that Kike is no longer the SS, and the returning Duvall and eventually Story should help as well.

 

Of course, the bats could stay dormant, but to me that is not expected.

 

It is depressing, right now, so it is what it is.

 

I don’t see Duvall helping the defense unless he goes to LF. As for Story, he could return too late to make a difference. Agree on the rotation, but now worry about the hitting.

[Maxbialystock]

Players liking Cora hasn’t made a difference in the WL record, so no big deal on that plus JH rehired Cora not Bloom.

 

Agree “liking” is over-rated, but 2018 and 2021 suggest Cora is a pretty good manager.

[moonslav59]

I don’t see Duvall helping the defense unless he goes to LF. As for Story, he could return too late to make a difference. Agree on the rotation, but now worry about the hitting.

 

I think Duvall will be in LF some games, which improves the D.

 

If he is in CF vs LHPs, instead of Refsynder, it is an improvement, too.

 

If he is in CF, instead of Kike, and I can't believe I'm saying Duran, too, it is worse.

[moonslav59]

Agree “liking” is over-rated, but 2018 and 2021 suggest Cora is a pretty good manager.

 

Liking may improve respecting and trusting a little more, but I've always resisted thinking all this makes much of a difference.

 

I have some differences in opinions on some strategies Cora uses, but I know he knows way more than I do about strategy and the ins and outs of certain calls and decisions he makes. The amount of differences I have are such a small percent of all the choices he makes, that it does not come close to flipping me to disliking Cora as our manager.

 

I understand the concept of firing a manager to create change, but change just for the sake of shaking things up is not something I like. It does seem to work, sometimes, even when a good manager is let go.

[moonslav59]

My impression is that Kike has one of Cora's favorites. He did well in center field and had periods where he hit decently, but he came to us as a utility player and at $10 mil a year, I don't see where he is returning that much value to the team. It has been a problem for the Sox that high cost players such as Sale and also Story have also not returned anywhere near the their cost in Value whereas young players like Bello, Whitlock and Houck are solid value players have. It's time for Bloom to reassess his strategy in a decisive manner. I don't see the AL East as getting less competitive in 2024, we have to get much better.

 

As long as Duvall stays healthy, and Yoshida and Dugo keep playing well, a Duran-Refsnyder platoon offers a pretty good option vs using Kike as the 4th OFer.

 

Kike at 2B would not be needed, if we traded him and cash for a prospect, as we could call up Valdez and use an Arroyo/Valdez platoon at 2B, when Story returns or with Reyes at SS until he returns, which is apparently going to be August as a SS.

 

Another option would be to trade Turner, use Yoshida at DH and let Kike/Duran platoon in CF with Duvall in LF. (A Duvall/Refsnyder platoon does not work.)

 

We could trade Kike and Turner and go with this:

 

CF: Duran/Duvall platoon

LF: Duvall v L and Refsnyder v R

DH: Yoshida (call up Dalbec to replace Turner?)

1B: Casas

2B: Arroyo/Valdez platoon (Valdez takes Kike's slot on the roster)

SS: Story or Reyes

 

Personally, I think losing Turner and his second half traditional hot streak would greatly affect our chances in 2023, so I would not trade him, if we are still in it, but I don't think the alignment I just provides is all that much worse than now.

 

Trading Dugo, Kike and Turner would be giving up on 2023 and losing Dugo & Turner for just 2024, as well.

 

It would leave this:

 

RF: Refsnyder (Abreu?)

CF: Duran/Refsnyder

LF: Duvall/Yoshida

DH: Yoshida (Dalbec)

1B: Casas (Dalbec)

2B: Arroyo/Valdez

SS: Story/Reyes

Edited June 16, 2023 by moonslav59

[sk7326]

I'm just saying that it could be worse!

 

I think Cora has done a good job MacGyvering the pitching staff ... and that is one place where you can definitely see a manager's fingerprints.

[Nick]

As long as Duvall stay healthy, and Yoshida and Dugo keep playing well, a Duran-Refsnyder platoon offers a pretty good option vs using Kike as the 4th OFer.

 

Kike at 2B would not be needed, if we traded him and cash for a prospect, as we could call up Valdez and use an Arroyo/Valdez platoon at 2B, when Story returns or with Reyes at SS until he returns, which is apparently going to be August as a SS.

 

Another option would be to trade Turner, use Yoshida at DH and let Kike/Duran platoon in CF with Duvall in LF. (A Duvall/Refsnyder platoon does not work.)

 

We could trade Kike and Turner and go with this:

 

CF: Duran/Duvall platoon

LF: Duvall v L and Refsnyder v R

DH: Yoshida (call up Dalbec to replace Turner?)

1B: Casas

2B: Arroyo/Valdez platoon (Valdez takes Kike's slot on the roster)

SS: Story or Reyes

 

Personally, I think losing Turner and his second half traditional hot streak would greatly affect our chances in 2023, so I would not trade him, if we are still in it, but I don't think the alignment I just provides is all that much worse than now.

 

Trading Dugo, Kike and Turner would be giving up on 2023 and losing Dugo & Turner for just 2024, as well.

 

It would leave this:

 

RF: Refsnyder (Abreu?)

CF: Duran/Refsnyder

LF: Duvall/Yoshida

DH: Yoshida (Dalbec)

1B: Casas (Dalbec)

2B: Arroyo/Valdez

SS: Story/Reyes

 

Trading Kike and Turner would be salary dumps. Team then has money to improve in other areas.

 

As you said Turner trade would open Yoshida's move to DH.

 

Trading Verdugo would be Rays move. Getting in return a player with longer team control.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Nick

[Nick]

Houck and Whitlock returning to the pen as many of you suggest ain't happening.

 

Bloom and company are very pleased with their deveolment as starters.

 

They will sell that to JH. Long waited internal development of starting pitching.

 

We may have solved filling starters 2 3 and 4 spots.

 

The team has no interest in reviving Pivetta's starting career.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Nick

[moonslav59]

Trading Kike and Turner would be salary dumps. Team then has money to improve in other areas.

 

As you said Turner trade would open Yoshida's move to DH.

 

Trading Verdugo would be Rays move. Getting in return a player with longer team control.

 

Trading Kike and Turner sould only save Turner's salary, next year.

 

I'm only for trading Turner, if we are out of it and aren't planning on spending a lot, next winter.