Fire Bloom .

[moonslav59]

the list of guys like Weiss is at least 2x this list

 

Indeed, maybe 10x longer, and that is what I did not expect from Bloom, when he came here. I know the Rays swung and missed on low cost additions, too. It is expected to miss more than you hit on these types of deals, but man-o-man! He has missed badly on a ton of additions. 2020 was understandable.

 

I've talked a lot about how Bloom has worked hard to improve the depth of the 26 and 40 man rosters, as well as the minor league depth from where he started in 2020. I even argued he had too much quantity and not enough quality on the pitching staff, this spring, yet as it turned out 20+ decent looking pitcher profiles was not nearly enough. Had we just added 1-2 more durabale and dependable pitchers, we could have limited all those failures we've seen come and go.

 

Just looking at the pitching, we started the season with this:

 

Sale & Paxton known to be starting on the IL, but expected back early or mid season.

Kluber, Kelly and Mills missing most or all of the whole season, perhaps unexpectedly.

That's 5.

Bello, Pivetta, Whitlock, Houck and Crawford is 5 more.

Jansen, Martin, Schreiber, Winckowski and Bleier were 5 more.

That's 15

The next 5 might have their quality questioned, but it was 6 more:

Joely, Brasier, Ort, Mata, Murphy and Walter.

That was 21.

 

Had we had 22 or 23, we don't see:

22.50 Faria

13.50 Lamet

9.00 Littell

9.00 Robertson

7.36 Garza

6.75 Dermody

5.85 Jacques

5.69 Llovera

4.91 TScott

2.70 Sherriff

2.70 Barraclough

 

That's 11 pitchers totalling over 80 IP of crap.

Had we had two better pitchers than Brasier and Ort, add 45 more IP.

[Duran Is The Man]

Indeed, maybe 10x longer, and that is what I did not expect from Bloom, when he came here. I know the Rays swung and missed on low cost additions, too. It is expected to miss more than you hit on these types of deals, but man-o-man! He has missed badly on a ton of additions. 2020 was understandable.

 

I've talked a lot about how Bloom has worked hard to improve the depth of the 26 and 40 man rosters, as well as the minor league depth from where he started in 2020. I even argued he had too much quantity and not enough quality on the pitching staff, this spring, yet as it turned out 20+ decent looking pitcher profiles was not nearly enough. Had we just added 1-2 more durabale and dependable pitchers, we could have limited all those failures we've seen come and go.

 

Just looking at the pitching, we started the season with this:

 

Sale & Paxton known to be starting on the IL, but expected back early or mid season.

Kluber, Kelly and Mills missing most or all of the whole season, perhaps unexpectedly.

That's 5.

Bello, Pivetta, Whitlock, Houck and Crawford is 5 more.

Jansen, Martin, Schreiber, Winckowski and Bleier were 5 more.

That's 15

The next 5 might have their quality questioned, but it was 6 more:

Joely, Brasier, Ort, Mata, Murphy and Walter.

That was 21.

 

Had we had 22 or 23, we don't see:

22.50 Faria

13.50 Lamet

9.00 Littell

9.00 Robertson

7.36 Garza

6.75 Dermody

5.85 Jacques

5.69 Llovera

4.91 TScott

2.70 Sherriff

2.70 Barraclough

 

That's 11 pitchers totalling over 80 IP of crap.

Had we had two better pitchers than Brasier and Ort, add 45 more IP.

 

Kluber turning into a pile of s*** has been the real killer this year. i still can't believe Bloom didn't re-sign Wacha. his nerds whiffed on this one for sure.

[moonslav59]

Kluber turning into a pile of s*** has been the real killer this year. i still can't believe Bloom didn't re-sign Wacha. his nerds whiffed on this one for sure.

 

I was big on bringing Wacha back.

 

I liked that idea more than Nate.

 

It's hard for me to get real down on that move, though, when Martin, Jansen, Turner and Duvall are all doing so well.

 

These are mid level signings that are doing better than bigger ones made by other teams.

 

Yoshi and Kluber are bad or questionable.

 

(The Story signing from last March is actually starting to look like it might not be a bust.)

 

[notin]

Kluber turning into a pile of s*** has been the real killer this year. i still can't believe Bloom didn't re-sign Wacha. his nerds whiffed on this one for sure.

 

I get passing on Wacha.

 

He’s 32 years old and hasn’t reached 130 IP since 2018. And he got a FOUR YEAR contract. I’d just assume let Chris Sale get lonely on the IL.

 

Kluber actually pitched 164 IP last year, which is one inning shy of Wacha’s career high. Plus which of these two has the better resume?

Edited August 26, 2023 by notin

[moonslav59]

I get passing on Wacha.

 

He’s 32 years old and hasn’t reached 130 IP since 2018. And he got a FOUR YEAR contract. I’d just assume let Chris Sale get lonely on the IL.

 

Kluber actually pitched 164 IP last year, which is one inning shy of Wacha’s career high. Plus which of these two has the better resume?

 

The 4 year deal is not all that expensive.

 

Wacha got $4M/1 with this....

 

Team option at $16M x 1, so it would be $20M/2.

 

or

 

Player option at $18.5M/3, so it would be $22.5M/4.

 

[notin]

The 4 year deal is not all that expensive.

 

Wacha got $4M/1 with this....

 

Team option at $16M x 1, so it would be $20M/2.

 

or

 

Player option at $18.5M/3, so it would be $22.5M/4.

 

 

It’s not so much the money as it is having him get hurt every year for four years.

 

I sprint have mine off they brought him back (preferably for a year or two). But Wacha is injured all the time and is 32 years old. That’s not likely to change from ages 33 thru 36…

[moonslav59]

It’s not so much the money as it is having him get hurt every year for four years.

 

I sprint have mine off they brought him back (preferably for a year or two). But Wacha is injured all the time and is 32 years old. That’s not likely to change from ages 33 thru 36…

 

Okay, pay Richards $10M/1 and $10M/1 Kluber of $22.5M/4 Wacha.

[notin]

The 4 year deal is not all that expensive.

 

Wacha got $4M/1 with this....

 

Team option at $16M x 1, so it would be $20M/2.

 

or

 

Player option at $18.5M/3, so it would be $22.5M/4.

 

 

 

That’s not the numbers I keep seeing.

 

2023 is $7.5 mill, with a team option of 2 years $32mill. If declined, Wacha has a player option of 3 years $19mill, which he can exercise if he gets hurt badly…

[Duran Is The Man]

I get passing on Wacha.

 

He’s 32 years old and hasn’t reached 130 IP since 2018. And he got a FOUR YEAR contract. I’d just assume let Chris Sale get lonely on the IL.

 

Kluber actually pitched 164 IP last year, which is one inning shy of Wacha’s career high. Plus which of these two has the better resume?

 

 

yeah, Kluber pitched 164 innings in 2022, but the previous three years before that were 80, 1 and 35, respectively. i think it was pretty obvious his Cy Young days were long past. i wasn't upset he was signed, but i felt like Wacha proved he himself for the Sox last year and they definitely had the money to sign him. and with a team desperate for pitching, who the f*** passes up on somebody like this? i'll end with this: Kluber's '22 bWAR is -0.9, Wacha's is 2.4.

[moonslav59]

yeah, Kluber pitched 164 innings in 2022, but the previous three years before that were 80, 1 and 35, respectively. i think it was pretty obvious his Cy Young days were long past. i wasn't upset he was signed, but i felt like Wacha proved he himself for the Sox last year and they definitely had the money to sign him. and with a team desperate for pitching, who the f*** passes up on somebody like this? i'll end with this: Kluber's '22 bWAR is -0.9, Wacha's is 2.4.

 

A lot of people were turned off by Wacha's underlying numbers. Only his ERA showed he was doing great.

 

I thought Kluber was a better gamble than Richards was, and I wasn't high on the Wacha/Hill signings before 2022, either, but they worked out well.

 

When you spend $5M-10M on one year deals for SP'ers, you get what you pay for: a long shot gamble. You et what you pay for.

 

In hindsight: we should have non-tendered Brasier, not taken on Mondesi's contract and not extended Kike, last summer. That money, plus the money we left on the table (under the tax line) could have allowed us to go bigger at SP'er. I will point out that many of the higher-priced SP'ers signed, last winter, bombed out or went on the IL, after decent starts to the season.

 

Had we signed Eflin and Wacha, we'd be sitting pretty, but that's expecting a GM to be close to 100% on his additions, many of which were relatively low budget, like Turner, Duvall, Martin, Reyes, Bernardino and Urias.

 

I think the team got better.

The farm got better.

The budget is set up for JH to take the plunge, next winter.

 

We can bitch about Kluber, and it's all fair game, but to me, I like our direction, even if we come up just short, this fall.

[Randy Red Sox]

It is already been pointed out on here how FA pitching signings often don't pan out. The injury to Ohtani just proves my point. Bloom needs to get his head out of his a.$$ and acquire some YOUNG COST CONTOLLED POWER ARMS. If our farm system is so great he needs to package some of the excess SS's he has drafted and trade them for TOP pitching prospects. It is so much easier to add 2B and OF types through trade and FA than it is to add top young PITCHING talent. Much cheaper too. Give your head a shake Chaim !!

A lot of people were turned off by Wacha's underlying numbers. Only his ERA showed he was doing great.

 

I thought Kluber was a better gamble than Richards was, and I wasn't high on the Wacha/Hill signings before 2022, either, but they worked out well.

 

When you spend $5M-10M on one year deals for SP'ers, you get what you pay for: a long shot gamble. You et what you pay for.

 

In hindsight: we should have non-tendered Brasier, not taken on Mondesi's contract and not extended Kike, last summer. That money, plus the money we left on the table (under the tax line) could have allowed us to go bigger at SP'er. I will point out that many of the higher-priced SP'ers signed, last winter, bombed out or went on the IL, after decent starts to the season.

 

Had we signed Eflin and Wacha, we'd be sitting pretty, but that's expecting a GM to be close to 100% on his additions, many of which were relatively low budget, like Turner, Duvall, Martin, Reyes, Bernardino and Urias.

 

I think the team got better.

The farm got better.

The budget is set up for JH to take the plunge, next winter.

 

We can bitch about Kluber, and it's all fair game, but to me, I like our direction, even if we come up just short, this fall.

[illinoisredsox]

A lot of people were turned off by Wacha's underlying numbers. Only his ERA showed he was doing great.

 

I thought Kluber was a better gamble than Richards was, and I wasn't high on the Wacha/Hill signings before 2022, either, but they worked out well.

 

When you spend $5M-10M on one year deals for SP'ers, you get what you pay for: a long shot gamble. You et what you pay for.

 

In hindsight: we should have non-tendered Brasier, not taken on Mondesi's contract and not extended Kike, last summer. That money, plus the money we left on the table (under the tax line) could have allowed us to go bigger at SP'er. I will point out that many of the higher-priced SP'ers signed, last winter, bombed out or went on the IL, after decent starts to the season.

 

Had we signed Eflin and Wacha, we'd be sitting pretty, but that's expecting a GM to be close to 100% on his additions, many of which were relatively low budget, like Turner, Duvall, Martin, Reyes, Bernardino and Urias.

 

I think the team got better.

The farm got better.

The budget is set up for JH to take the plunge, next winter.

 

We can bitch about Kluber, and it's all fair game, but to me, I like our direction, even if we come up just short, this fall.

 

Re. Kike, if they didn’t resign him, do they get Turner and Martin? It’s an unknown what if any role Kike played in their “recruitment”.

[moonslav59]

It is already been pointed out on here how FA pitching signings often don't pan out. The injury to Ohtani just proves my point. Bloom needs to get his head out of his a.$$ and acquire some YOUNG COST CONTOLLED POWER ARMS. If our farm system is so great he needs to package some of the excess SS's he has drafted and trade them for TOP pitching prospects. It is so much easier to add 2B and OF types through trade and FA than it is to add top young PITCHING talent. Much cheaper too. Give your head a shake Chaim !!

 

I totally agree. Maybe they are waiting until they think "Now is the time," but I ask "How soon is now?"

[notin]

Re. Kike, if they didn’t resign him, do they get Turner and Martin? It’s an unknown what if any role Kike played in their “recruitment”.

 

He and Martin were never teammates, so probably not much there. Did you mean Jansen?

[notin]

It is already been pointed out on here how FA pitching signings often don't pan out. The injury to Ohtani just proves my point. Bloom needs to get his head out of his a.$$ and acquire some YOUNG COST CONTOLLED POWER ARMS. If our farm system is so great he needs to package some of the excess SS's he has drafted and trade them for TOP pitching prospects. It is so much easier to add 2B and OF types through trade and FA than it is to add top young PITCHING talent. Much cheaper too. Give your head a shake Chaim !!

 

 

More likely OF depth, since every team has that “excess of shortstops” in the minors that the Sox really don’t have…

[moonslav59]

More likely OF depth, since every team has that “excess of shortstops” in the minors that the Sox really don’t have…

 

Yes.

 

Most of the "SSs" drafted have already been moved off SS, as we said they would.

 

DHam is the ML ready depth, and he is doubtful as a contributor, except for his base-stealing skills and occasional power.

 

Chang is still in the system but is not a prospects. Reyes and urias will be depth on the ML roster.

 

Mayer/Bonaci are at AA SS and Paulino is at A+.

Ravelo is at A- and Zanetello at FCL.

Cespedes and Arias are at DSL and offer big promise.

Ferguson is a long shot.

 

For 2024, SPs suggests DHam will be ML depth, Sogard at AAA, Mayer still at AA, Romero at A+ (off the IL), Zanetell at A-, Cespedes at FCL with Arias to 2B at FCL and Ruiz and Linares at DSL SS.

[notin]

Lugo and Coffey are already playing 3b…

[moonslav59]

Lugo and Coffey are already playing 3b…

 

Bonaci may be moved, too.

[mvp 78]

Lugo and Coffey are already playing 3b…

 

Lugo is a LFer now I believe. A parttimer too.

[notin]

Lugo is a LFer now I believe. A parttimer too.

 

Eventually he’ll just get relegated to AAAA player…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Regarding prospects, and dealing some before they become big league regulars or busts -- no one wants to give up a Bagwell (Gammons, driving when he found out, pulled over to the side of the road and broke down in tears) -- but the purpose of a deep farm is to constantly replenish the parent club, via promotion or trade capital, and save the owners from themselves from overpaying for free agent busts.

 

Nowadays, entire departments track and analyze every aspect of a players' development and project potential. However, there's still no stat that measures heart or determination that can predict Dustin Pedroia becomes a borderline Hall of Famer. In six years in the minors, Pedroia had 21 homers; then he hit 21 in one season in the bigs. Ceddanne Rafaela already has 20 this year. But will he even be a better major leaguer than Jarren Duran, who had a slightly better slash line in his five years in the minors?

 

By some assessments, Blake Swihart's ceiling was Buster Posey...then he wrecked his ankle playing LF. Oakland's Billy Beane made Scott Hatteberg famous by moving him to first base -- where he averaged 1.4 WAR in four years. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

 

Boston's pitching staff isn't going to improve on its own (unless Braiser returns to teach everybody his new grip). Some fans are convinced Henry will resume paying for legitimate starting pitchers in their primes. No one is convinced Chaim Bloom will trade prospects. Something -- or someone -- has to give.

[mvp 78]

Eventually he’ll just get relegated to AAAA player…

 

Probably not even get that far.

[illinoisredsox]

He and Martin were never teammates, so probably not much there. Did you mean Jansen?

 

Yeah. Good catch.

[moonslav59]

Boston's pitching staff isn't going to improve on its own (unless Braiser returns to teach everybody his new grip). Some fans are convinced Henry will resume paying for legitimate starting pitchers in their primes. No one is convinced Chaim Bloom will trade prospects. Something -- or someone -- has to give.

 

There are some signs our farm is doing better with pitching.

 

We went a long time from Lester and Buch to Bello. (Yes, we traded Kopech and Houck might end up okay, but in the last 2-3 years, we've seen some decent, yet not great, pitching called up:

Houck

Whitlock

Crawford

Winckowsi

Bello

 

It's hard to know how well the next guys do. Murphy and Walter have been Meh, and Mata got hurt again, but we do have some promising pitchers on the farm, now.

[Bellhorn04]

Yeah. Good catch.

 

We're better fielders than the Red Sox.

[MADSTORK]

30 left 5 out

Wild Card Rangers Astros Rays all have better Teams and much better pitching

Toast! Yet another year watching October baseball from the sidelines

 

How do you fix it?

 

I’ve said it once I’ll say it again, Ownership is a roller coaster ride since 03, is Henry committed or is he not going forward yet again 5 years removed from a ring?

 

Bloom seems to have an eye for Offensive talent within the Scouting and Drafting department.

Pitching prospects? again, to many young arms who cannot command the zone. I’ll say it again, clean house and revamp the Minor League Developmental system and it starts by replacing Crockett and Abrahams

 

Don’t stop at Rafaela let the kid play and develop in CF for 30 games and see what you have

Same for WAbreu who had good power for his age at the level he was in before the trade, play him

 

Your best prospects are in AA, Yorke to 2B see what you have instead of the beer leaguers that have been at the position since Arroyo was released

 

Pitching call-ups, LGuerrero ICoffey WGonzalez GGambrell AHoppe

 

Bloom in my opinion is not the guy to handle every aspect of running a ML Team. Trades are very ? and the dumpster diving is mind boggling. I believe he is better suited for the Scouting and Drafting Department again which he seems to be a decent evaluator especially Offensive talent.

 

Does Henry juggle the front office and give more power to the GM?

 

One thing for sure is, Betts ain’t here and so ain’t October baseball

[moonslav59]

Long time between this rat sighting.

[Hugh2]

30 left 5 out

Wild Card Rangers Astros Rays all have better Teams and much better pitching

Toast! Yet another year watching October baseball from the sidelines

 

How do you fix it?

 

I’ve said it once I’ll say it again, Ownership is a roller coaster ride since 03, is Henry committed or is he not going forward yet again 5 years removed from a ring?

 

Bloom seems to have an eye for Offensive talent within the Scouting and Drafting department.

Pitching prospects? again, to many young arms who cannot command the zone. I’ll say it again, clean house and revamp the Minor League Developmental system and it starts by replacing Crockett and Abrahams

 

Don’t stop at Rafaela let the kid play and develop in CF for 30 games and see what you have

Same for WAbreu who had good power for his age at the level he was in before the trade, play him

 

Your best prospects are in AA, Yorke to 2B see what you have instead of the beer leaguers that have been at the position since Arroyo was released

 

Pitching call-ups, LGuerrero ICoffey WGonzalez GGambrell AHoppe

 

Bloom in my opinion is not the guy to handle every aspect of running a ML Team. Trades are very ? and the dumpster diving is mind boggling. I believe he is better suited for the Scouting and Drafting Department again which he seems to be a decent evaluator especially Offensive talent.

 

Does Henry juggle the front office and give more power to the GM?

 

One thing for sure is, Betts ain’t here and so ain’t October baseball

 

 

I'll give credit where credit is due, this is a reasonable post from the Madstork, something I never thought I'd say, maybe you're not so mad after all.

 

If this ride starts at 03' id' gladly right it again and again.

 

I do have one critique however, you can't just call guys up to call them up. I get the "see what you have mentality" and I can agree and respect the usage of a season in which you believe you're out of it to use that time to develop these kids. It actually makes a lot of sense to let them take their lumps now. However, development still matters, a decision to promote someone to the majors should primarily be determined by that kids readiness.

 

With that said. I think they should get Rafaeala out there and give him regular playing time. As for the rest? I just think it's way too soon. Some of those guys blatantly need more time in the minors despite their talent, draft position, or potential. Maybe Grant Gambrell deserves a look, he is rule 5 eligible this offseason and the Sox will have guys they need to protect and I'm not sure he gets protected right now and he very well may be picked. So, now may be the time to see what you have in him.

[moonslav59]

I'll give credit where credit is due, this is a reasonable post from the Madstork, something I never thought I'd say, maybe you're not so mad after all.

 

If this ride starts at 03' id' gladly right it again and again.

 

I do have one critique however, you can't just call guys up to call them up. I get the "see what you have mentality" and I can agree and respect the usage of a season in which you believe you're out of it to use that time to develop these kids. It actually makes a lot of sense to let them take their lumps now. However, development still matters, a decision to promote someone to the majors should primarily be determined by that kids readiness.

 

With that said. I think they should get Rafaeala out there and give him regular playing time. As for the rest? I just think it's way too soon. Some of those guys blatantly need more time in the minors despite their talent, draft position, or potential. Maybe Grant Gambrell deserves a look, he is rule 5 eligible this offseason and the Sox will have guys they need to protect and I'm not sure he gets protected right now and he very well may be picked. So, now may be the time to see what you have in him.

 

Don't encourage him.

 

Call up 5 pitchers? We don't have 5 with options, and some that do are named Crawford and Wink, so what? DFA Paxton and____?

[notin]

Don't encourage him.

 

Call up 5 pitchers? We don't have 5 with options, and some that do are named Crawford and Wink, so what? DFA Paxton and____?

 

DFA Barraclough and Llovera. Call up Gambrell and anyone not named Barraclough or Llovera…