Best Red Sox SS of All Time

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It should just be a reminder that solely using bWAR or fWAR isn't a way to judge players. You can't just rely on one stat, especially one that is so complicated that it is close to being convoluted. Remember that one of the things the owners were proposing was compensation based on WAR. Pretty scary that a guy can lose 10% of his WAR just because they wanted to adjust their calculation, which only goes back to 2016. There is no way to adjust any year prior to that.

 

I proposed they adjust the record books, but a town council member burned them before it was too late.

[moonslav59]

It should just be a reminder that solely using bWAR or fWAR isn't a way to judge players. You can't just rely on one stat, especially one that is so complicated that it is close to being convoluted. Remember that one of the things the owners were proposing was compensation based on WAR. Pretty scary that a guy can lose 10% of his WAR just because they wanted to adjust their calculation, which only goes back to 2016. There is no way to adjust any year prior to that.

 

bWAR and fWAR are not just one stat, but your point is still well-taken.

 

The problem is, if you are going to tie pay to performance, you have to use something to measure the full value of a player.

[mvp 78]

bWAR and fWAR are not just one stat, but your point is still well-taken.

 

The problem is, if you are going to tie pay to performance, you have to use something to measure the full value of a player.

 

Except that measure is still up for interpretation, clearly.

[moonslav59]

Except that measure is still up for interpretation, clearly.

 

I get that, but if they do run with this, any measure they choose will be flawed and criticized.

[mvp 78]

I get that, but if they do run with this, any measure they choose will be flawed and criticized.

 

Well FanGraphs even said they shouldn't base ANY compensation on it.

[Bellhorn04]

Well FanGraphs even said they shouldn't base ANY compensation on it.

 

Absolutely not.

[moonslav59]

Well FanGraphs even said they shouldn't base ANY compensation on it.

 

I get that, but again, if they are going to base anything on performance, what is currently out there as a better option?

[mvp 78]

I get that, but again, if they are going to base anything on performance, what is currently out there as a better option?

 

Awards or tangible stats like OPS. WAR would be the worst option since there is no agreed upon calculation for it and the fielding metrics aren't as clear cut as the offensive ones.

[Bellhorn04]

Awards or tangible stats like OPS. WAR would be the worst option since there is no agreed upon calculation for it and the fielding metrics aren't as clear cut as the offensive ones.

 

And the pitching metrics are so different that Rick Porcello's fWAR is 50% better than his bWAR.

[moonslav59]

Awards or tangible stats like OPS. WAR would be the worst option since there is no agreed upon calculation for it and the fielding metrics aren't as clear cut as the offensive ones.

 

Awards? LOL!

 

OPS ignores defense and running and double counts some achievements. To me, an average of bWAR and fWAR looks to be as good or better than anything else.

[Bellhorn04]

Awards? LOL!

 

OPS ignores defense and running and double counts some achievements. To me, an average of bWAR and fWAR looks to be as good or better than anything else.

 

You have a point there.

[notin]

Awards or tangible stats like OPS. WAR would be the worst option since there is no agreed upon calculation for it and the fielding metrics aren't as clear cut as the offensive ones.

 

So are you saying awards have more tangible merit than fWAR?

[notin]

Awards or tangible stats like OPS. WAR would be the worst option since there is no agreed upon calculation for it and the fielding metrics aren't as clear cut as the offensive ones.

 

 

But just because fielding metrics are more difficult to calculate doesn’t mean they should be ignored, does it?

[Bellhorn04]

But just because fielding metrics are more difficult to calculate doesn’t mean they should be ignored, does it?

 

Not ignored, no. But this is about compensation being based on them.

[mvp 78]

Awards? LOL!

 

OPS ignores defense and running and double counts some achievements. To me, an average of bWAR and fWAR looks to be as good or better than anything else.

 

Awards are fine.

 

Defensive metrics right now are still very heavily leaning towards eye test type stuff. Better to leave them off than stick with actual results.

 

I don't know what you're fighting against, since FanGraphs JUST changed their calculation so it's not like WAR is set in stone.

[mvp 78]

You have a point there.

 

Wrong.

[mvp 78]

So are you saying awards have more tangible merit than fWAR?

 

Until fWAR comes up with a final calculation that won't be changed next week, yes.

[mvp 78]

But just because fielding metrics are more difficult to calculate doesn’t mean they should be ignored, does it?

 

For direct compensation it can be ignored.

 

We just saw players gain and lose 3 fWAR just on the push of a button.

 

What happens if a player misses out on compensation, but then fWAR is updated later on and the player sees that he's now deserving of the compensation retroactively?

[Bellhorn04]

Awards are fine.

 

Gold Glove awards are absolutely not fine.

[mvp 78]

Not ignored, no. But this is about compensation being based on them.

 

They have value in scouting and discussions on here. For compensation, I think the best way to go is to keep it simple and direct.

 

Do I like awards? No. Are the foolproof? Hell no. But at least they are set in stone once awarded (same as Batting Average, OPS, K, etc.).

[mvp 78]

Gold Glove awards are absolutely not fine.

 

I don't like them either. They have been used in compensation bonuses for various players in the past.

[notin]

Until fWAR comes up with a final calculation that won't be changed next week, yes.

 

So until then, a popularity contest among members of the BBWAA seems crystal clear?

 

It’s probably worth noting that by their own admission, the BBWAA members don’t even agree what the word “valuable” in MVP means. If these are the two options, I take the variable math.

 

At least it’s math and not a collection of opinions…

[notin]

They have value in scouting and discussions on here. For compensation, I think the best way to go is to keep it simple and direct.

 

Do I like awards? No. Are the foolproof? Hell no. But at least they are set in stone once awarded (same as Batting Average, OPS, K, etc.).

 

Again, not true.

 

While rare, stats do change over time.

 

Some 20 years ago, I was listening to a White Sox-Orioles game during my commute. Before the game, there was a ceremony where former Oriole great Jim Gentile was awarded $5000 because he had a clause in his contract in 1961 that he would receive that money if he won the RBI title.

 

Some 40 years later, the found some long-hidden RBI and it tied him with Maris for the crown.

 

So maybe it was etched in limestone?

[mvp 78]

So until then, a popularity contest among members of the BBWAA seems crystal clear?

 

It’s probably worth noting that by their own admission, the BBWAA members don’t even agree what the word “valuable” in MVP means. If these are the two options, I take the variable math.

 

At least it’s math and not a collection of opinions…

 

Except that math is based on an opinion of how to come up with a final value.

[mvp 78]

Again, not true.

 

While rare, stats do change over time.

 

Some 20 years ago, I was listening to a White Sox-Orioles game during my commute. Before the game, there was a ceremony where former Oriole great Jim Gentile was awarded $5000 because he had a clause in his contract in 1961 that he would receive that money if he won the RBI title.

 

Some 40 years later, the found some long-hidden RBI and it tied him with Maris for the crown.

 

So maybe it was etched in limestone?

 

So the difference between 1 missing RBI and 3 fWAR... Is 1 RBI greater than 3 fWAR?

[notin]

For direct compensation it can be ignored.

 

We just saw players gain and lose 3 fWAR just on the push of a button.

 

What happens if a player misses out on compensation, but then fWAR is updated later on and the player sees that he's now deserving of the compensation retroactively?

 

Pay him retroactively. See my Gentile story above.

 

If fWAR does get tied to compensation - which would be bad - the formulas would have to be locked down or either the union or the owners would absolutely scream. That impartial and independent Fangraphs is tweaking their work with no financial ramifications is inconsequential…

[notin]

So the difference between 1 missing RBI and 3 fWAR... Is 1 RBI greater than 3 fWAR?

 

You’re missing the point altogether.

 

Bear in mind whatever Fangraphs does means nothing to actual player compensation. They’re just doing their best to perfect their craft. If it was to be used for compensation, they would not be allowed to tweak it.

 

And if you are going to pretend “real stats” are etched in stone, bear in mind it is not as thorough as you think…

[mvp 78]

Pay him retroactively. See my Gentile story above.

 

If fWAR does get tied to compensation - which would be bad - the formulas would have to be locked down or either the union or the owners would absolutely scream. That impartial and independent Fangraphs is tweaking their work with no financial ramifications is inconsequential…

 

It's not inconsequential since WE ARE STATING THAT FWAR SHOULDN'T BE USED FOR COMPENSATION SINCE THEY JUST CHANGED THE CALCULATION. You're expecting a lock down that has never happened before. With the information we have now, using fWAR for compensation would be a bad idea.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

You’re missing the point altogether.

 

Bear in mind whatever Fangraphs does means nothing to actual player compensation. They’re just doing their best to perfect their craft. If it was to be used for compensation, they would not be allowed to tweak it.

 

And if you are going to pretend “real stats” are etched in stone, bear in mind it is not as thorough as you think…

 

Geez, you act like baseball statistics don't constitute hard data. To make a claim that qualitative determines quantitative would be like saying what sometimes constitutes a strike or a ball is based on a base ump's perception of a check swing, or that a hit or an error is often determined by an official scorer's opinion.

[mvp 78]

You’re missing the point altogether.

 

Bear in mind whatever Fangraphs does means nothing to actual player compensation. They’re just doing their best to perfect their craft. If it was to be used for compensation, they would not be allowed to tweak it.

 

And if you are going to pretend “real stats” are etched in stone, bear in mind it is not as thorough as you think…

 

I'm not sure I'm the one who missed the point.