The 2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[moonslav59]

They might if they just wanted to dump lots and lots of salary, right?

 

They got their ring. They got his prime years. Move on...?

 

I doubt it.

[notin]

They got their ring. They got his prime years. Move on...?

 

I doubt it.

 

Oh I don't think they plan to move on. But it is one scenario where they would move Betts for someone like Seabold. In fact, it's the only one...

[Nick]

At the risk of sounding like we're a posse, I agree.

 

I do think Whitlock can be a good starter, but we know he does very well in the long relief role, and that role is becoming more and more prominent in today's game.

 

But they pay those players less than average starters so there is THAT.

[Hugh2]

Wacha and Hill.

 

Whitlock is a known (and extremely effective) commodity in the bullpen. Not broken. Don’t fix…

 

But Whitlock is young and controllable for years to come, he could become a staple in your rotation. He adds significantly more potential than both Wacha and Hill. Unless he’s struggling in ST, Whitlock is filling one of those slots.

 

Assuming of course they plan on starting him.

[moonslav59]

Keeping Whitlock out of the rotation might keep his future arb costs down, but that should not be a factor.

 

To me, I'd rather sign starters at a higher cost than 3 RP'ers at lower costs. Staers seem a bit more predictable, but I have no data to support this feeling.

 

[oldtimer]

Thoughts on the CBA:

 

Being an old curmudgeon, and not yet accused of being a member of the posse, I have some thoughts to share relative to the ongoing discussions leading up to any new Collective Bargaining Agreement.

 

On the owners side we have a bunch of successful business men who have run corporations with the goal of making a profit. In addition, they are sett up as a committee. It's hard to get a committee to agree on anything. Their collective goals include increasing the value of their franchises and getting a solid ROI. Of course some may truly love the game and not want to harm the goose that laid the golden egg. They also can be competitive. Winning can be a bragging point and also can be reflected in the value of the franchise. I read somewhere that a percentage of CEO's are psychopaths (not the evil killer types) so some of their decisions may seem calculated or even irrational.

 

On the players side it is interesting to note that the average salary is $4.17 mil and going down. More interesting is the median salary is $1.1 Mil. The average years in the majors is 5.6 although a player has an 11% chance of losing that status at any time. I couldn't find the median years in the majors but one would assume there is not that much difference from average. I assume that young men who get a big check are likely to reward themselves with cars, housing and high living unless someone clues them in. Players want to get to the majors as soon as their talent allows and also want to get a high starting salary and qualify for arbitration and then free agency as soon as possible. The players form a collective union which believes is should get a substantial share of the total MLBB income. So the median player may expect to make around $6 mil during their time with taxes eating up about 40 % of that. Union voting would be based on the median.

 

Clearly the baseball owners are reluctant to give on any of the players desires as it cuts into their profits. What can they do to make it hard for the players and hence the union. They can continue to bargain until well into the season, knowing they can at least break even if they get a season underway in June. Years 2 through 5 will presumably be full with full profits as well. It's tough for the median players to resist as they go without checks while their expenses still must be paid. The risk owners take is pissing off the fans. Joe Blow who is being asked to fork over $200 to take his son to the park may finally have had enough.

 

My view is there is a very real chance baseball doesn't get going on time and maybe even being delayed into the summer. Hope the owners come around and the players union remains somewhat flexible. Only time will tell.

 

Merry Christmas season.

[Nick]

I'm not sure if I have any sympathy for the players.

 

First of all, it's difficult to have one union represent someone that just signed a $200M long term contract versus another that is surviving on league minimum. Just really think about it.

 

I see a guy like Marwin Gonzalez making $3M. I bet 95% of population doesn't make that in a lifetime. Some on this board will argue but 95% of people aren't as good as Marwin. I simply can't have any sympathy for the guy.

 

Owners take all the risk. Players don't have to play.

 

Go start your own league and pay yourselves zillions of dollars.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'm not sure if I have any sympathy for the players.

 

First of all, it's difficult to have one union represent someone that just signed a $200M long term contract versus another that is surviving on league minimum. Just really think about it.

 

I see a guy like Marwin Gonzalez making $3M. I bet 95% of population doesn't make that in a lifetime. Some on this board will argue but 95% of people aren't as good as Marwin. I simply can't have any sympathy for the guy.

 

Owners take all the risk. Players don't have to play.

 

Go start your own league and pay yourselves zillions of dollars.

 

Not only do owners risk still having to pay players who get injured or have operations and thus miss significant playing time, but imagine having to pay guys to stay home because their personal choices risk the health and subsequent team contributions of other teammates, coaches and managers?

[Bellhorn04]

Owners take all the risk. Players don't have to play.

 

On the flip side of that:

 

-Owners are clearly making huge piles of money, especially in the growth in market value of franchises.

-The players are the ones who generate all the revenue.

 

I don't really feel sympathy for either side. But it's sure as heck frustrating that they can't do a better job bargaining with each other.

[moonslav59]

On the flip side of that:

 

-Owners are clearly making huge piles of money, especially in the growth in market value of franchises.

-The players are the ones who generate all the revenue.

 

I don't really feel sympathy for either side. But it's sure as heck frustrating that they can't do a better job bargaining with each other.

 

Good points.

 

It’s a unique business, and the secret financial situation of most teams makes bargaining difficult.

[notin]

On the flip side of that:

 

-Owners are clearly making huge piles of money, especially in the growth in market value of franchises.

-The players are the ones who generate all the revenue.

 

I don't really feel sympathy for either side. But it's sure as heck frustrating that they can't do a better job bargaining with each other.

 

That’s how capitalism works. Do people think Jeff Bezos is personally grabbing items off the shelves and packaging them for delivery?

 

I want to side with the players. But I can’t because their “union” doesn’t care about its lowest paid members. If they were trying to institute better conditions or pay for players in A ball instead of fighting to have anyone with a $20mill salary upped to $25million, I’d be more sympathetic.

 

The baseball CBA is the Bible of Greed. It’s an endless struggle in which a couple hundred people cannot agree on how to divide up several billion dollars…

[notin]

Good points.

 

It’s a unique business, and the secret financial situation of most teams makes bargaining difficult.

 

It’s out really unique?

 

Isn’t that how every company works? The lowest paid people generate the money by building products or performing services.

 

I’ve never heard of any company with any other structure…

[Bellhorn04]

It’s out really unique?

 

Isn’t that how every company works? The lowest paid people generate the money by building products or performing services.

 

I’ve never heard of any company with any other structure…

 

Pro sports is a somewhat unusual industry. It's an organized entertainment business in which, as you say, a relatively small number of people share a vast amount of money.

[moonslav59]

It’s out really unique?

 

Isn’t that how every company works? The lowest paid people generate the money by building products or performing services.

 

I’ve never heard of any company with any other structure…

 

There are huge differences. The biggest being players can't choose what boss to work for until the time after most players are out of baseball.

 

There are other things, too.

 

Yes, the owners make the lion share of the profits- that is not much different.

[notin]

Pro sports is a somewhat unusual industry. It's an organized entertainment business in which, as you say, a relatively small number of people share a vast amount of money.

 

So… like Walmart? Or Amazon? Or like lots of other companies. Really, almost all of them.

 

Really the only difference is we all know who the CEO of Walmart and the CEO of Amazon and the CEO of Google is. Those are the famous people. They’re also the richest people in their own organization. Google CEO Sundar Pinchai makes more money than the people we actually interact with, like whoever created today’s Google doodle.

 

In MLB, THAT is the reverse. I would have to go look up whoever owns the Texas Rangers. But I can name everyone who’s been in their starting lineup for the past umpteen years.

 

So the money really goes hand in hand with the names we know. In all walks of life…

[notin]

There are huge differences. The biggest being players can't choose what boss to work for until the time after most players are out of baseball.

 

There are other things, too.

 

Yes, the owners make the lion share of the profits- that is not much different.

 

Not really.

 

MLB is a singular company, not 30 distinct ones. Plenty of people do not get to choose their division in their job, and certainly don’t get to choose who runs that division…

[moonslav59]

Not really.

 

MLB is a singular company, not 30 distinct ones. Plenty of people do not get to choose their division in their job, and certainly don’t get to choose who runs that division…

 

It's unique in many ways.

 

At the risk of blowing up the posse, I disagree.

 

[Bellhorn04]

It's unique in many ways.

 

At the risk of blowing up the posse, I disagree.

 

 

There's always been plenty of infighting amongst the posse.

[dgalehouse]

There's always been plenty of infighting amongst the posse.

 

Not so much a " posse" . More like a little " Mean boys club."

[moonslav59]

Not so much a " posse" . More like a little " Mean boys club."

 

That's a mean thing to say.

[dgalehouse]

That's a mean thing to say.

I was trying to be nice.

[jad]

It's an amazing success-story of the capitalist system that the average victim of this system (i.e., the ordinary schmuck paying thousands a year in health insurance and trying to figure out a way to pay for education), still sides with the owners and CEOs, even mouthing all the attendant b.s. justification--they worked hard, they risk so much, they lose so much more money than we do--there's a nice scene in Bertolucci's 1900 that deals with this idiocy). And it doesn't seem to matter whether the workers are prof. athletes or some poor bastard flipping burgers.

[moonslav59]

I was trying to be nice.

 

Very telling, indeed.

 

Your whole idea that there is a mean posse is delusional.

 

Sure, people get emotional and personal, at times, but that comes from both sides and all sides.

 

IMO, most people are pretty respectful of each other's opinions, and if they think one is absurd, they may say things that offend. I don't think most is intentional on anyone's part, except a couple posters- none of which are part of this so-called posse.

 

[moonslav59]

It's an amazing success-story of the capitalist system that the average victim of this system (i.e., the ordinary schmuck paying thousands a year in health insurance and trying to figure out a way to pay for education), still sides with the owners and CEOs, even mouthing all the attendant b.s. justification--they worked hard, they risk so much, they lose so much more money than we do--there's a nice scene in Bertolucci's 1900 that deals with this idiocy). And it doesn't seem to matter whether the workers are prof. athletes or some poor bastard flipping burgers.

 

Even the worst and lowest budget teams have seen their value multiple exponentially over a very short time.

 

Even if we convince ourselves some teams are losing money, they amount these owners make when they sell their team is so astronomical, this whole talk of "risk" is comical.

[Old Red]

Very telling, indeed.

 

Your whole idea that there is a mean posse is delusional.

 

Sure, people get emotional and personal, at times, but that comes from both sides and all sides.

 

IMO, most people are pretty respectful of each other's opinions, and if they think one is absurd, they may say things that offend. I don't think most is intentional on anyone's part, except a couple posters- none of which are part of this so-called posse.

 

 

Not much of a posse. No authority, or jurisdiction at all, but wears the posse label with honor, and distinction. The funny part is they fancy themselves like the Cartwrights, but are more like Barney Fife with Gomer, and Goober as the deputies. They just think they are mean. I don’t think they bite.

[Bellhorn04]

Not much of a posse. No authority, or jurisdiction at all, but wears the posse label with honor, and distinction. The funny part is they fancy themselves like the Cartwrights, but are more like Barney Fife with Gomer, and Goober as the deputies. They just think they are mean. I don’t think they bite.

 

And we'll call you Yosemite Sam.

[moonslav59]

And we'll call you Yosemite Sam.

 

Oh, heavens to Mergatroid! More name calling by the men posse!

[moonslav59]

And we'll call you Yosemite Sam.

 

How 'bout some Cypress Hill...

 

 

Livin' on phat pockets on flat wit tha gat

Rollin' around nine deuce Cadillac

Still got my homies to watch my back

And they'll smoke ya ass if ya wanna come chat

That's why some pigs an tha kids come sweatin' they follow

A hollow point shell's hard ta swallow

Why wallow when ya come ta roll on I put tha clip an dust

Bring ya ass on, kickin' dust on ya head as tha gat busts

My grip surrounded I'm about ta get rushed I brushed wit death

How many shells stuffed in my closet?

When tha s*** goes down ya better be ready (when tha s*** goes down)

When tha s*** goes down ya better be ready (when tha s*** goes down)

When tha s*** goes down ya better be ready (when tha s*** goes down)

When tha s*** goes down ya better be ready (ya better be ready)

I told tha boyz get tha sawed off glock and tha rest of tha gats

As I strapped on tha bullet-proof vest

Boom! I think I got one to tha chest

Hot damn I didn't want to kill a man s***

I still stand tall with tha hill clan y'all better stand back

Niggas bout ta fall I'm comin' out blastin' like Yosemite Sam

get tha cheese an tha bread for tha ham

When tha s*** goes down ya better be ready (when tha s*** goes down)

When tha s*** goes down ya better be ready (when tha s*** goes down)

When tha s*** goes down ya better be ready (when tha s*** goes down)

When tha s*** goes down ya better be ready (ya better be ready)

[notin]

I was trying to be nice.

 

Try harder...

[notin]

Oh, heavens to Mergatroid! More name calling by the men posse!

 

That's Snagglepuss you're quoting.

 

Also, not so sure he was straight...