The 2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[mvp 78]

It’s the time of year when everything starts to Bloom.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'm not in favor of signing an old, expensive pitcher. Scherzer has a tired, dead arm and can't start with his club facing elimination. He won't be any younger a year from now.

 

Meanwhile, pre- primetimers like Vlad and Wander will be even better next season. Stop-gaps won't stop them. The best way for the Red Sox to compete with that kind of talent is to develop their own (including adding players to the system via trades). Bloom could go out and sign this year's version of Teixeira, CC and AJ -- Crankee trivia; see NY's last ring (before my son was born) -- and the Sox still may not get as far as they did this year.

 

I prefer dealing for a guy like Berrios -- someone 20-something, with upside, under control. Where are the candidates? Astute posters are already pointing to Oakland, Colorado and Miami...

[Kimmi]

I don't have the time to look into possible trade scenarios and free agent signings like many of you do.

 

I trust Bloom. I agree with his philosophy. That's enough for me.

[Bellhorn04]

It's going to be another interesting one. But once again we better be prepared to be patient. Bloom is not exactly a rapid-fire wheeler-dealer.

[Nick]

What I want and what Bloom will do are two different things.....I trust Bloom. I really don't know much.

 

You start with what you have and make improvements.

 

C Vaz (no reason to think we won't pick up his option)

1B Dalbec (he has potential plus he's back up options for Devers, Casas and DH)

2B Arroyo (we may look to upgrade this position and make him a utility player)

SS Xander

3B Devers

LF Verdugo

CF Kike

RF Renfroe (he was a bargain at $3M)

DH JD

 

We'll know shortly after the World Series, what JD will do. Not too much concern here. If he opts out, we have $22M to play with. Next DH won't be that expensive.

 

SP Sale

SP Eovaldi

SP Pivetta

SP ????

SP ????

 

Again we'll know shortly the fate of E Rod.

 

Pen

Barnes (yep, we're stuck with him after giving him a $5M raise, his trade value is all time low)

Whitlock

Houck

Brasier

Darwinzon

Taylor

Sawamura

Valdez (?)

 

The bullpen may take work especially if one or two are moved to starter status

 

Is this lineup (assuming JD returns and E Rod stays) good enough to win the Division? We were 8 back. Probably not.

 

Pluses

We'll have Sale for entire year and he maybe improving.

I would expect Pivetta to continue to get better.

Eovaldi has become a pitcher, not just a guy that throws 100mph.

Minuses

Barnes falling off the ridge.

Not sure if defense can improve.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Nick

[moonslav59]

What I want and what Bloom will do are two different things.....I trust Bloom. I really don't know much.

 

You start with what you have and make improvements.

 

C Vaz (no reason to think we won't pick up his option)

1B Dalbec (he has potential plus he's back up options for Devers, Casas and DH)

2B Arroyo (we may look to upgrade this position and make him a utility player)

SS Xander

3B Devers

LF Verdugo

CF Kike

RF Renfroe (he was a bargain at $3M)

DH JD

 

We'll know shortly after the World Series, what JD will do. Not too much concern here. If he opts out, we have $22M to play with. Next DH won't be that expensive.

 

SP Sale

SP Eovaldi

SP Pivetta

SP ????

SP ????

 

Again we'll know shortly the fate of E Rod.

 

Pen

Barnes (yep, we're stuck with him after giving him a $5M raise, his trade value is all time low)

Whitlock

Houck

Brasier

Darwinzon

Taylor

Sawamura

Valdez (?)

 

The bullpen may take work especially if one or two are moved to starter status

 

Is this lineup (assuming JD returns and E Rod stays) good enough to win the Division? We were 8 back. Probably not.

 

Pluses

We'll have Sale for entire year and he maybe improving.

I would expect Pivetta to continue to get better.

Eovaldi has become a pitcher, not just a guy that throws 100mph.

Minuses

Barnes falling off the ridge.

Not sure if defense can improve.

 

Nice summary.

 

I'm not sure I have ever seen an off season where just about all our free agents to be are additions by subtractions or close to it.

 

ERod is good, but at $18.5M (QO), there are likely pitchers similar to him that can be signed.

 

Ottavino's numbers were deceivingly good. He can be replaced at $8M.

 

As you pointed out, if JD opts out, we have $22M cleared from the lux tax ($19.4M in actual salary.)

 

A lot depends on what Bloom's winter budget is, what the new tax laws are going to be, and how Bloom spends the budget. It should be pointed out that Bloom swung and missed with a big chunk of his winter signings, last year, and a bigger budget does not mean he'll do better. He actually did worse with his biggest signings and additions:

 

$10M Richards

$8M Ottavino

$7M x 2 Kike (Great deal)

$6M Perez

$3M Marwin

$3M Andriese

$3M Renfroe (Great deal)

$2M Santana

$1.5M Sawamura (OK deal)

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Ottavino's numbers were deceivingly good. He can be replaced at $8M.

 

 

 

Something like ('21 salaries, in millions): Wisler $2 + Kittredge $1.5 + Anderson $1 + Fairbanks $.5 + Rasmussen $.5 + Feyereisen $.5 + Thompson $.5 + Chargois $.5 + Flemming $.5...

[moonslav59]

Something like ('21 salaries, in millions): Wisler $2 + Kittredge $1.5 + Anderson $1 + Fairbanks $.5 + Rasmussen $.5 + Feyereisen $.5 + Thompson $.5 + Chargois $.5 + Flemming $.5...

 

It's hard to acquire guys like that via trade an impossible via free agency.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It's hard to acquire guys like that via trade an impossible via free agency.

 

All at once, yes... but a couple this year, then swap one for a couple more next year, then the next, and before you know it: you win 100 games and finish first without any full-time starting pitchers...

 

But that's just one method of bullpen-building. It can help you throw a shutout in the opener of the ALDS, but you also risk getting your doors blown in three straight when an opponent with a stacked line-up exploits a weak reliever or two who just aren't on in each day's endless parade to the mound.

[dgalehouse]

Keeping both J.D. and Schwarber , while a bit redundant, could be a good idea if the Sox are willing to spend what it takes to do it. But the main task this off season has to be improving the pitching, especially the bullpen. In today's game , having a strong and reliable bullpen is absolutely vital.

[Bellhorn04]

Keeping both J.D. and Schwarber , while a bit redundant, could be a good idea if the Sox are willing to spend what it takes to do it. But the main task this off season has to be improving the pitching, especially the bullpen. In today's game , having a strong and reliable bullpen is absolutely vital.

 

We may get to the point we don't even talk about starting rotations and bullpens any more, just pitching staffs.

[YastrzemskI]

We may get to the point we don't even talk about starting rotations and bullpens any more, just pitching staffs.

 

Boy watching some of these post season games.. it sure seems to be heading in that direction. You get three innings from your table setter aka opener and then mix and match for six innings.

[Bellhorn04]

Boy watching some of these post season games.. it sure seems to be heading in that direction. You get three innings from your table setter aka opener and then mix and match for six innings.

 

Yeah, gone are the days when you thought the goal was to knock out the starter early so you could get into the crappy part of their bullpen.

[moonslav59]

All at once, yes... but a couple this year, then swap one for a couple more next year, then the next, and before you know it: you win 100 games and finish first without any full-time starting pitchers...

 

But that's just one method of bullpen-building. It can help you throw a shutout in the opener of the ALDS, but you also risk getting your doors blown in three straight when an opponent with a stacked line-up exploits a weak reliever or two who just aren't on in each day's endless parade to the mound.

 

Agreed, and Bloom has not done all that well finding RP'er gems in the rough, so far.

 

He's gone through a lot since 2020 --49 total, including a few everyday players doing mop up duty.

 

40 with more than 2 IP in relief 2020-2021:

Barnes

Whitlock

Valdez

Ottavino

Taylor

Sawamura

DHern

Andriese

Brasier

Brice

Weber

Workman

Richards

Robles

Rios

Springs

 

Under 20 IP

Davis

Covey

Perez

Osich

Stock

Walden

Brewer

Houck

 

Under 10

Henbree

Kickham

Mazza

Hall

Feliz

Gonsalves

Tapia

Godley

Triggs

Leyer

Schreiber

Bazardo

Brennan

Peacock

Espinal

Hart

 

 

[moonslav59]

We may get to the point we don't even talk about starting rotations and bullpens any more, just pitching staffs.

 

If starters only go 18 batters, maybe they can go back to 4 man rotations.

 

Teams can have 8 -4 inning men and 5 short relief guys.

[Nick]

Possible Help from the Farm per Sox Prospects

Position Players

2022

1B Casas

OF Duran

SS Downs

C Wong

2023

C Hernandez

2024

SS Mayer

2B Yorke

3B Blaze

OF Jimenez

 

Pitchers

2022

Seabold

Winchowski

2023

Bello

Groome

Matta

Murphy

Walter

Ward

2024

Song

[Nick]

If starters only go 18 batters, maybe they can go back to 4 man rotations.

 

Teams can have 8 -4 inning men and 5 short relief guys.

 

8 starters and 5 closers...that works for me....

[vegasbob]

We may get to the point we don't even talk about starting rotations and bullpens any more, just pitching staffs.

 

 

With the need for 7-8 traditional "starters" to cover a 162 game season , and shortage of effective pitchers who can go 6-7 innings, the transition to pitching staffs with 2-3 inning guys (Houck; Whitlock ?) and bullpen games using a planned 5-6 pitchers is already well under way.

 

The analytic stats about the 3rd time through a lineup, along with the requirement to be hard throwing 94-98mph throwers, and prevalence of TJ surgery dictates a change in how to manage pitching. You won't see playoff intense pitching decisions but you will see a departure from old school Ace--#5 staffs.

[Nick]

With the need for 7-8 traditional "starters" to cover a 162 game season , and shortage of effective pitchers who can go 6-7 innings, the transition to pitching staffs with 2-3 inning guys (Houck; Whitlock ?) and bullpen games using a planned 5-6 pitchers is already well under way.

 

The analytic stats about the 3rd time through a lineup, along with the requirement to be hard throwing 94-98mph throwers, and prevalence of TJ surgery dictates a change in how to manage pitching. You won't see playoff intense pitching decisions but you will see a departure from old school Ace--#5 staffs.

 

Good points....

 

I'm also wondering if teams are factoring in the cost of traditional starting pitchers.....

 

Has nothing to do with anything but I read in a Tampa paper indicating 3 starters that were used against the Sox lacked major league experience (very little that is)....that they were all newbies if you well. Feeling is they are all good pitchers and will be a factor in 2022. I'm wondering if the owners are beginning to question G Cole type signings. It's scary to think the Yankees have eight or nine more years at $36M per for Cole (that's $10M+ more than Sale).....if they can win couple of World Series then maybe it would have been worth it.

 

Bottom line is they need to upgrade the team. G Cole alone will not get them to the Promise Land.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Nick

[moonslav59]

8 starters and 5 closers...that works for me....

 

If starters all start going just 3-4 innings, we will need more long men who can go 3-4 innings, so yes, basically 8 "starter/longmen."

[Nick]

Question for you Moon

 

Are we destine to be that wait for that big inning team? I don't know if we can manufacture runs. Most frustrating thing at Fenway is three singles will not guaranty a run. I don't know if there are any stats out there for percentage of run scored from second on a single but I'm sure we're at the bottom, having to play half of our games at Fenway.

 

Just not sure what our 'identity' should be going forward.

[Maxbialystock]

Yeah, gone are the days when you thought the goal was to knock out the starter early so you could get into the crappy part of their bullpen.

 

To Cora's credit, he went with long relievers--Valdez, Whitlock, and Houck--before the postseason. Your fundamental point, however, is correct. Forget starters and relievers. Think longers, shorters, and bridgers.

[moonslav59]

The problem is when one of your 4 inning guys get shelled and can only go 1-2 innings. Can another guy go on 3 days rest? Do you need 10 guys that can go 3-4? That doesn't leave any room for 1 inning guys. Edited October 24, 2021 by moonslav59

[Nick]

Red Sox’s impressive assets should have Yankees very concerned NY Post...make the Yankee fans worry....

 

1 and 2 (tie). Xander Bogaerts and Rafael Devers

3. Alex Cora

4. Garrett Whitlock

5. Chaim Bloom

[Larry Cook]

Top 10 - the offseason playlist (pre Halloween)

 

1.) we issue Rodriguez a q.o. And he does not take it.

2.) Martinez does not opt out.

3.) we pick up the Vazquez option.

4.) we sign chris Taylor in free agency.

5.) we trade Duran and two minor league pitchers to Oakland for manea.

6.) arizona does not pick up the option on Merrill Kelly and we sign him.

7.) we do not pick up the options on Perez and Richards.

8.) we sign two relievers this offseason, just don’t know who yet.

9.) we acquire an unknown closer.

10.) hang’em Chaim publicly apologizes fir bungling the Benintendi trade!

 

Book your 2022 World Series reservations now.

[moonslav59]

Top 10 - the offseason playlist (pre Halloween)

 

1.) we issue Rodriguez a q.o. And he does not take it.

2.) Martinez does not opt out.

3.) we pick up the Vazquez option.

4.) we sign chris Taylor in free agency.

5.) we trade Duran and two minor league pitchers to Oakland for manea.

6.) arizona does not pick up the option on Merrill Kelly and we sign him.

7.) we do not pick up the options on Perez and Richards.

8.) we sign two relievers this offseason, just don’t know who yet.

9.) we acquire an unknown closer.

10.) hang’em Chaim publicly apologizes fir bungling the Benintendi trade!

 

Book your 2022 World Series reservations now.

 

The Beni trade is far from over.

 

It was two years of Beni control, and with the money saved, we got Renfroe and Sawamura.

 

Win-win, and that's before what we see on any of the 4 prospects.

[Swiharts Ghost]

Great season .

 

Wish list

1 extend Devers

2 extend Kike

3trade Xander

4 trade JDM supplemented If needed

5 trade Bobby .

6Sign Kyle

7sign Bryant

8Sign Marcus Semien

9Trade Duran

10 trade Renfroe

11.Sign Izzy

12trade Arroyo or release

13Promote Casas

14 sign Ray

15Sign Verlander

16 transition Whit to starter

17 trade Barnes supplemented

18 Houck to compete for closer .

19 if no verlander look for Thor .

20 jettison Perez Erod Richards Darwinzon sawamura

21Keep Pivetta in Pen

22Keep Robles

I know this is an insane list but I’d be happy for a few of these to come to fruition.The Farm is pretty decent will surely help either in player acquisitions now or supplement what we have

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

What exactly happened to Barnes? Did I miss the announcement where the Red Sox said why he wasn't used down the stretch and was left off the ALCS roster? Sore arm? Covid side-effects? Seriously, even if there were mental health issues, you'd think someone in the media would have inquired in an interview with Cora or Bloom this month... unless they all know and are keeping it quiet...

 

The reason a team's All-Star closer was unavailable in the playoffs is news that at least the national media would report. Did any players or coaches ever talk about it?

 

At least Devers now admits that he was injured. Maybe we won't find out about Barnes until someday soon when the PR dept. subtly issues a press release about an operation.

[harmony]

What exactly happened to Barnes? Did I miss the announcement where the Red Sox said why he wasn't used down the stretch and was left off the ALCS roster? Sore arm? Covid side-effects? Seriously, even if there were mental health issues, you'd think someone in the media would have inquired in an interview with Cora or Bloom this month... unless they all know and are keeping it quiet...

 

The reason a team's All-Star closer was unavailable in the playoffs is news that at least the national media would report. Did any players or coaches ever talk about it?

 

At least Devers now admits that he was injured. Maybe we won't find out about Barnes until someday soon when the PR dept. subtly issues a press release about an operation.

https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/10/15/matt-barnes-left-off-red-sox-alcs-roster-but-cbo-chaim-bloom-remains-confident-in-all-stars-future/

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/red-sox-matt-barnes-suffered-bizarre-thumb-injury-late-season

[moonslav59]

What exactly happened to Barnes? Did I miss the announcement where the Red Sox said why he wasn't used down the stretch and was left off the ALCS roster? Sore arm? Covid side-effects? Seriously, even if there were mental health issues, you'd think someone in the media would have inquired in an interview with Cora or Bloom this month... unless they all know and are keeping it quiet...

 

The reason a team's All-Star closer was unavailable in the playoffs is news that at least the national media would report. Did any players or coaches ever talk about it?

 

At least Devers now admits that he was injured. Maybe we won't find out about Barnes until someday soon when the PR dept. subtly issues a press release about an operation.

 

Blame it on a pepper...

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/red-sox-matt-barnes-suffered-bizarre-thumb-injury-late-season