A Realistic View at 2022: Part I

[moonslav59]

Like I said you are the only one I heard say that about Kike. We need to get others on here who have 50+ years watching the Red Sox, and see if they agree with you that Kike is the best defensive CF the Sox have ever had.

 

I'm not looking for agreement of support. I don't "need" to hear what others think, but I'm guessing some think he had one of the best defensive seasons any Sox CF'er has had in our viewing period. Maybe not the very best but close- perhaps.

 

It's my opinion, based on a small sample size. As he ages and gets worse, my opinion might change.

 

I also said Cora is the best Sox manager I have seen, but that, too was based on a very limited sample size.

 

Again, I won't argue with anyone liking Lynn, JBJ or Tito better than Kike (on D only) or Cora.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Moon I wasn’t responding to you on this.

 

Ok, but you said "you guys..."

[Old Red]

I'm not looking for agreement of support. I don't "need" to hear what others think, but I'm guessing some think he had one of the best defensive seasons any Sox CF'er has had in our viewing period.

 

It's my opinion, based on a small sample size. As he ages and gets worse, my opinion might change.

 

I also said Cora is the best Sox manager I have seen, but that, too was based on a very limited sample size.

 

Again, I won't argue with anyone liking Lynn, JBJ or Tito better than Kike (on D only) or Cora.

 

 

I’m not out for any kind of argument, but would be just curious to see what other people think.

[Old Red]

Ok, but you said "you guys..."

 

Ok, but I wasn’t talking about just people on here, but sports in general. I don’t care for any kind of analytics, and never will. I know I’m in the minority on that, and that’s the way the sports world is today, but just my opinion.

[moonslav59]

I’m not out for any kind of argument, but would be just curious to see what other people think.

 

I would expect many to say Lynn. Younger fans: JBJ.

 

I also think many look at longevity when saying who was "the best."

 

I would agree, those two should be in the top 3-5 and would be 1-2, if you count most innings played well.

[moonslav59]

Ok, but I wasn’t talking about just people on here, but sports in general. I don’t care for any kind of analytics, and never will. I know I’m in the minority on that, and that’s the way the sports world is today, but just my opinion.

 

You have many who share that opinion.

 

I respect analytics but realize no one metric or data source can ever tell the whole story or definitively solve most debates.

[Old Red]

You have many who share that opinion.

 

I respect analytics but realize no one metric or data source can ever tell the whole story or definitively solve most debates.

 

I’m just an old school guy, who goes by old school stats.

[moonslav59]

I’m just an old school guy, who goes by old school stats.

 

There was a time nobody really looked at K rates and OBP.

[moonslav59]

One article on Rule 5 by Ben Kairalla says ...

 

It’s a certainty that Downs will be protected. It’s also very likely Jimenez and Bello are protected as well.

 

Beyond those three, the right-handed pitching trio of Ward, Crawford, and Winckowski all rank among the Top-30 Red Sox prospects, and could provide depth to a team looking to add fresh arms and new faces to their pitching staffs without having to trade for a pitcher or look to the free agent market for pitching.

 

Players currently on the 40-man roster who my find themselves in danger of being removed to prevent the Rule 5 eligible prospects from being drafted include: Eduardo Bazardo (RHP), Phillips Valdez (RHP), Ronaldo Hernandez ©, Hudson Potts (1B/3B), Jeisson Rosario (OF). Another player who could be at least temporarily jettisoned from the 40-man roster is infielder Jonathan Arauz.

 

n all, the Red Sox have nearly 50 players in their minor league system that are Rule 5 draft eligible. Beyond the top organizational prospects mentioned above, other recognizable names to keep an eye on include outfielder Franchy Cordero and relief pitcher Durbin Feltman.

 

 

[mvp 78]

I could care less about all the analytics that you guys throw out there about anybody. Player, or position. All I said was that the Sox could do better than Kike as the CF for the next 4-5 years. What does JBJ have to do with the next 4-5 years?

 

They could do better at literally every position. No Sox player is the single greatest player at their position.

[mvp 78]

Like I said you are the only one I heard say that about Kike. We need to get others on here who have 50+ years watching the Red Sox, and see if they agree with you that Kike is the best defensive CF the Sox have ever had.

 

Don't worry, in a couple of years I'll be close to that group. I guess only 40+ years doesn't quite count. Need to really put in the work!

[mvp 78]

I would expect many to say Lynn. Younger fans: JBJ.

 

I also think many look at longevity when saying who was "the best."

 

I would agree, those two should be in the top 3-5 and would be 1-2, if you count most innings played well.

 

The Sox have a long line of mediocre CFers. Damon and Ellsbury couldn't throw the ball.

 

When I looked at JBJ, I saw a really good CF. Was he the best Sox CFer of my lifetime? Maybe, but he wasn't even the greatest CFer in his division while he was here (Kiermaier).

[mvp 78]

One article on Rule 5 by Ben Kairalla says ...

 

It’s a certainty that Downs will be protected. It’s also very likely Jimenez and Bello are protected as well.

 

Beyond those three, the right-handed pitching trio of Ward, Crawford, and Winckowski all rank among the Top-30 Red Sox prospects, and could provide depth to a team looking to add fresh arms and new faces to their pitching staffs without having to trade for a pitcher or look to the free agent market for pitching.

 

Players currently on the 40-man roster who my find themselves in danger of being removed to prevent the Rule 5 eligible prospects from being drafted include: Eduardo Bazardo (RHP), Phillips Valdez (RHP), Ronaldo Hernandez ©, Hudson Potts (1B/3B), Jeisson Rosario (OF). Another player who could be at least temporarily jettisoned from the 40-man roster is infielder Jonathan Arauz.

 

n all, the Red Sox have nearly 50 players in their minor league system that are Rule 5 draft eligible. Beyond the top organizational prospects mentioned above, other recognizable names to keep an eye on include outfielder Franchy Cordero and relief pitcher Durbin Feltman.

 

 

 

If Bello wasn't protected, he'd be the #1 pick of the draft.

[notin]

If Bello wasn't protected, he'd be the #1 pick of the draft.

 

Well, didn’t that depends who else is unprotected? A lot of teams have roster crunches this time of year and leave good prospects exposed…

[Old Red]

Don't worry, in a couple of years I'll be close to that group. I guess only 40+ years doesn't quite count. Need to really put in the work!

 

Well the longer you’ve been watching the more choices you have. I didn’t see Jimmy Piersall play with the Sox, but I’ve heard from a few that did that he was the best defensive CF the Sox ever had.

[moonslav59]

The Sox have a long line of mediocre CFers. Damon and Ellsbury couldn't throw the ball.

 

When I looked at JBJ, I saw a really good CF. Was he the best Sox CFer of my lifetime? Maybe, but he wasn't even the greatest CFer in his division while he was here (Kiermaier).

 

I was a huge JBJ fan and supporter, when people bashed him. I loved his defense. He made hard plays look easy, and maybe that hurt his image, a little.

 

At his peak, I'd have no issues saying he was as good or better than Kike, and it might not seem fair to penalize him for longevity and decline, but that's my own personal perspective.

 

Lyn was unbelievable. That 1975 season was fantastic- both on O and D. He was great on defense for a few years with the Sox. He went all out and got hurt playing 110% all the time. Again, with him, I'd have no beef with anyone calling him the best.

 

I just think what I saw of Kike, this year, we the best I have ever seen in a Sox CF'er. The metrics don't back me up, but it's what I think, right now.

[moonslav59]

Well the longer you’ve been watching the more choices you have. I didn’t see Jimmy Piersall play with the Sox, but I’ve heard from a few that did that he was the best defensive CF the Sox ever had.

 

I've heard that about Piersall, too. I started watching the Sox in the very early 70's.

[mvp 78]

Well the longer you’ve been watching the more choices you have. I didn’t see Jimmy Piersall play with the Sox, but I’ve heard from a few that did that he was the best defensive CF the Sox ever had.

 

I think a fair case could be made for that. The ANALYTICS say as much.

[sk7326]

The Sox have a long line of mediocre CFers. Damon and Ellsbury couldn't throw the ball.

 

When I looked at JBJ, I saw a really good CF. Was he the best Sox CFer of my lifetime? Maybe, but he wasn't even the greatest CFer in his division while he was here (Kiermaier).

 

Damon was a meh CF defensively - clear he was about the bat.

Ellsbury became a very good CF - but his injuries meant he had basically two all-world level seasons, and the Red Sox got his last one.

Crisp was a good CF when they had him, probably the best rangewise of the lot.

Bradley's arm plus his smarts made him fantastic. Just became hard to keep due to his spectacular volatility on the offensive side.

 

That said, in my lifetime (I started in 1985 or so), I'd probably put the 2013 version of Ellsbury at #1 as a total package on both sides of the ball.

[notin]

Whether or not Kike is the “best Sox centerfielder of all time” is a moot point. He’s the best centerfielder they have today…

[moonslav59]

Damon was a meh CF defensively - clear he was about the bat.

Ellsbury became a very good CF - but his injuries meant he had basically two all-world level seasons, and the Red Sox got his last one.

Crisp was a good CF when they had him, probably the best rangewise of the lot.

Bradley's arm plus his smarts made him fantastic. Just became hard to keep due to his spectacular volatility on the offensive side.

 

That said, in my lifetime (I started in 1985 or so), I'd probably put the 2013 version of Ellsbury at #1 as a total package on both sides of the ball.

 

If you had to name the best defensive CF'er you have seen on the Sox, who would it be?

 

[moonslav59]

Whether or not Kike is the “best Sox centerfielder of all time” is a moot point. He’s the best centerfielder they have today…

 

It may be "moot," but it's a long winter, so spending a day or so on discussing the best Sox defensive CF'er can be an interesting topic.

[sk7326]

If you had to name the best defensive CF'er you have seen on the Sox, who would it be?

 

 

Probably Bradley. 2013 Ellsbury was outstanding - the metrics were certainly competitive with peak JBJ seasons - but the man was never healthy.

 

And Damon probably deserves to be celebrated more defensively than I did in my original rumination, considering he basically had to play the entire outfield by himself given that he had Kevin Millar and Manny being Manny on either side of him.

[Old Red]

I've heard that about Piersall, too. I started watching the Sox in the very early 70's.

 

Casey Stengel called Piersall the best he ever saw, and he managed Mays, and Mantal.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

If you had to name the best defensive CF'er you have seen on the Sox, who would it be?

 

 

My favorite player of the Seventies was Lynn, the Sox' best all-around centerfielder of my lifetime. But for just pure defense, JBJ wins out. Kike had a great year, but he wasn't great the first month while learning how to go back on balls, at least in Fenway. Bradley was a finished product in the field his first game. Fans and media remember the spectacular catches and throws, but what I recall is that no one made more plays look easy, because Jackie got a better jump on long blasts than anyone. Kiermaier and Pillar were superdupermen, but I'll bet some of those web gems don't even make the highlights if JBJ grabs them without leaving Earth.

 

Can anyone even remember many all-out, scrambling sprints by Bradley Jr.? But any time we saw Jogging Jackie, we knew he knew he had it -- even on flies way over his head.

[moonslav59]

Probably Bradley. 2013 Ellsbury was outstanding - the metrics were certainly competitive with peak JBJ seasons - but the man was never healthy.

 

And Damon probably deserves to be celebrated more defensively than I did in my original rumination, considering he basically had to play the entire outfield by himself given that he had Kevin Millar and Manny being Manny on either side of him.

 

His arm was so bad, I can't place him in the top 5.

 

Remember, Manny once cut off one of his throws!!!!

[moonslav59]

My favorite player of the Seventies was Lynn, the Sox' best all-around centerfielder of my lifetime. But for just pure defense, JBJ wins out. Kike had a great year, but he wasn't great the first month while learning how to go back on balls, at least in Fenway. Bradley was a finished product in the field his first game. Fans and media remember the spectacular catches and throws, but what I recall is that no one made more plays look easy, because Jackie got a better jump on long blasts than anyone. Kiermaier and Pillar were superdupermen, but I'll bet some of those web gems don't even make the highlights if JBJ grabs them without leaving Earth.

 

Can anyone even remember many all-out, scrambling sprints by Bradley Jr.? But any time we saw Jogging Jackie, we knew he knew he had it -- even on flies way over his head.

 

Fair enough.

 

JBJ did make some diving plays, too.

 

He mastered the triangle and other weird angles.

 

He got a great jump on balls, almost always took the exact correct route and positioned himself correctly.

 

Lynn was fantastic- even to the point of being recklessly great. He was all about making the catch- screw his own body!

 

No argument on any of these guys.

 

Beniquez, Miller, Crisp and a couple others were all close, but didn't play very long.

 

Maybe saying Kike's last 3 months in 2021 were the best 3 months in Sox CF defense history. (The dropped ball in the playoffs would not count.)

[Old Red]

Fair enough.

 

JBJ did make some diving plays, too.

 

He mastered the triangle and other weird angles.

 

He got a great jump on balls, almost always took the exact correct route and positioned himself correctly.

 

Lynn was fantastic- even to the point of being recklessly great. He was all about making the catch- screw his own body!

 

No argument on any of these guys.

 

Beniquez, Miller, Crisp and a couple others were all close, but didn't play very long.

 

Maybe saying Kike's last 3 months in 2021 were the best 3 months in Sox CF defense history. (The dropped ball in the playoffs would not count.)

 

Like I’ve said before don’t mistake making diving catches as being good when some would get better jumps, and not having to dive at all.

[Nick]

Like I’ve said before don’t mistake making diving catches as being good when some would get better jumps, and not having to dive at all.

 

Yep

[Bellhorn04]

Lynn made a catch on a Saturday Game of the Week, it was in Baltimore. A ball that was headed over the fence, Lynn had a long run, leaped and caught the ball on its way over the fence and pulled his glove back in the same motion. It was one of the best I've seen.

 

Here's the clip - it's the second highlight.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Bellhorn04