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Posted

Not sure why we are looking at war. I am talking head to head playoff matchups 

game 1 - crochet (bos).  Cole (ny).  Gausman (tor).   I feel confident in crochet 

game 2 -  gray (bos).  Fried (ny).  Bieber (tor).     I have no confidence gray can win this. 
 

game 3 - bello (bos).  Rodon (ny).  Cease (tor).      I have no confidence in bello to win. 
 

game 4 - Oviedo (bos).  Shitlister (ny).  Pounce (tor).    I have no clue what we have in Oviedo. 
 

Two options available to us. 
option 1 - we sign framber. I feel confident he has a chance in game 2 against fried or Bieber. 
 

option 2 - we throw cutter in game 2 and take the loss. Then pray gray can take game 3. 

Old-Timey Member
Posted
1 hour ago, Larry Cook said:

Not sure why we are looking at war. I am talking head to head playoff matchups 

game 1 - crochet (bos).  Cole (ny).  Gausman (tor).   I feel confident in crochet 

game 2 -  gray (bos).  Fried (ny).  Bieber (tor).     I have no confidence gray can win this. 
 

game 3 - bello (bos).  Rodon (ny).  Cease (tor).      I have no confidence in bello to win. 
 

game 4 - Oviedo (bos).  Shitlister (ny).  Pounce (tor).    I have no clue what we have in Oviedo. 
 

Two options available to us. 
option 1 - we sign framber. I feel confident he has a chance in game 2 against fried or Bieber. 
 

option 2 - we throw cutter in game 2 and take the loss. Then pray gray can take game 3. 

How about getting to the postseason first?  Bieber wasn’t on the Blue Jays roster a year ago today…

Posted
48 minutes ago, Larry Cook said:

Not sure why we are looking at war. I am talking head to head playoff matchups 

game 1 - crochet (bos).  Cole (ny).  Gausman (tor).   I feel confident in crochet 

game 2 -  gray (bos).  Fried (ny).  Bieber (tor).     I have no confidence gray can win this. 
 

game 3 - bello (bos).  Rodon (ny).  Cease (tor).      I have no confidence in bello to win. 
 

game 4 - Oviedo (bos).  Shitlister (ny).  Pounce (tor).    I have no clue what we have in Oviedo. 
 

Two options available to us. 
option 1 - we sign framber. I feel confident he has a chance in game 2 against fried or Bieber. 
 

option 2 - we throw cutter in game 2 and take the loss. Then pray gray can take game 3. 

You can't just throw out projected fWAR, or for that matter 2024 and 2025's fWAR.

You acknowledged before not knowing Rodon was going to start the year on the IL, and now you are b ack to expecting greatness from him.

Cole and Bieber are question marks, too.

Crochet >>> Fried & Cease (all seem durable and reliable. Fried turns 32 soon)

Gray => Cole & Gausman (Most likely to be on the IL? Cole)

Bello <= Rodon & Bieber but I have more faith in Bello not on the IL in OCT than these two.

I'll take Schlitter and the Jays' 4 & 5s over BOS, but in the playoffs, they don't matter as much.

I just don't see the top 3 the way you do. If all are 100% and on their game, maybe.

Let's assume all these pitchers match their highest fWAR in the last 4 years:

3.0+ fWAR seasons

6.2 Rodon '22, 3.2 '25

5.7 Crochet '25, 4.6 '24

5.5 Gausman '22, 5.3 '23, 4.1 '25, 3.0 '25

5.4 Gray '23, 3.8 '24, 3.6 '25

5.3 Cole '23, 3.4 '22

4.9 Fried '22, 4.8 '25, 3.4 '24

4.8 Bieber '22

4.7 Cease '24, 4.4 '22, 3.6 '23

3.7 Sandoval '22

_______________

Now, look at 3.6+ seasons last 3 seasons:

 

6.2 Rodon '22

5.7 Crochet '25, 4.6 '24

5.5 Gausman '22, 5.3 '23, 4.1 '25

5.4 Gray '23, 3.8 '24, 3.6 '25

5.3 Cole '23

4.9 Fried '22, 4.8 '25

4.8 Bieber '22

4.7 Cease '24, 4.4 '22, 3.6 '23

3.7 Sandoval '22

The Sox have 2 two-time pitchers, TOR 2 and NYY 1. All have 3 pitchers on the list. The Sox have 2 of the top 3 single season events.

_____________________

Now, last 3 seasons only:

 

5.7 Crochet '25, 4.6 '24

5.4 Gray '23, 3.8 '24, 3.6 '25

5.3 Gausman '23, 4.1 '25

5.3 Cole '23

4.8 Fried '25

4.7 Cease '24

The Sox have the top 2 and 2 two timers.

___________________

Last 2 years:

 

5.7 Crochet '25, 4.6 '24

 

4.8 Fried '25

4.7 Cease '24

4.1 Gausman '25

3.8 Gray '24, 3.6 '25

BOS & TOR both have 2 of the top 5, but BOS has the only pitchers with 2 two timers.

I'm not sure why you project two NYY and two TOR pitchers will do better than Crochet and Gray. Sure, they can, but Cole hasn't been great is a while. 

BOS: One old

Yes, Gray is 36 but has aged well. (5.4>3.8>3.6)

Crochet is just entering prime: 4.6 >5.7 and age 26.

Bello is entering prime, too: 1.6>2.0>1.9 (3 yr total beats Rodon's)

____________________

TOR: One old and one not good for 3 years

Gausman will be 35 and is also aging well: 5.3>3.0>4,1 (very similar to Gray.)

Cease is 30: 3.6>4.7>3.4 could bounce back at 30.

Bieber turns 31 midseason and hasn't had a great year since 2022 (4.8) His 3 year trend: 2.1>0.8>0.3. Hell, Buehler did better than that!

_____________________

NYY: all 32 or older

Fried is 32 and is trending well: 1.9>3.4>4.8

Rodon is 33: -0.1>1.6>3.2 (will be on IL)

Cole is 35 and is coming off a major injury: 5.3>1.8> n/a '25

________________________

Nobody has a slam dunk better 3, but I think BOS's matches up pretty well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted
7 minutes ago, notin said:

How about getting to the postseason first?  Bieber wasn’t on the Blue Jays roster a year ago today…

Who has the highest odds of being on the IL for most of 2026 of in OCT '26?

1.Bieber

2. Rodon

3. Cole

Posted
45 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Who has the highest odds of being on the IL for most of 2026 of in OCT '26?

1.Bieber

2. Rodon

3. Cole

Health is a wild card for all 30 teams!  And injuries happen to all 30 teams. And it seems injuries always strike where teams have the least amount of depth!   Another reason to start the year with as much quality depth as follows. 

Posted
32 minutes ago, Larry Cook said:

Health is a wild card for all 30 teams!  And injuries happen to all 30 teams. And it seems injuries always strike where teams have the least amount of depth!   Another reason to start the year with as much quality depth as follows. 

Yes, but the point was we have better depth than almost every other team, AND our top 3 match up pretty well with almost every other team.

Out top 3 seem pretty reliable, when compared to TOR and NYY, but yes, anything can happen.

Last year, we lost #2 Houck, and arguably our #4 Crawford & #5 Sandoval for just about the full season. Later, we lost Dobbins and in the playoffs we lost just about everyone not named Crochet.

Posted

Could we see Contreras and his decent OBP bat second?

1. L Anthony LF

2. R Contreras 1B

3. L Duran DH

4. R Story SS

5. L Abreu RF

6. L Mayer 3B

7. R Narvaez C/ R Romy 2B

8. L DHam 2B/ R Narvaez C

9. R Rafaela C

_________________

If we trade Duran, maybe Yoshida/Romy up 2nd?

1. L Anthony LF

2. L Yoshida DH/R Romy 2B

3. R Contreras 1B

4. L Abreu RF

5. R Story SS

6. L Mayer 3B/R Narvaez C

7. R Narvaez C/L Mayer 3B

8. L DHam 2B/ R Campbell DH

9. R Rafaela CF

_______________________

I hope we add a 2B/3Bman and don't have to do this.

Posted

I know some of my trade suggestions are wild, and this may be my wildest...

To TBR: Duran ($7.7M), DHam, Wong and Yoshida ($36M/2) + $10M cash

To BOS: Y Diaz ($26M/2) & Jax Griffin ($9M/2)

The money is about even. The Rays get a 2Bman and catcher. Yoshida replaces Diaz at DH and Duran gives them a pretty cheap star.

We get Diaz to DH, unload Masa and can play Contreras at C, instead of Wong, play Diaz at 1B and DH Campbell or Romy, when Diaz is at 1B. We also get a nice RP'er.

I'm not sure that's the best we can get for Duran, but we do unload Masa without taking on a salary dump in return and we stay even on the budget, which could allow us to still sign Suarez or Okamoto or ...gasp ... Breggie or Bichette.

Let's say we sign Suarez...

1. L Anthony LF

2. R Diaz DH/1B

3. R Contreras 1B/C

4. L Abreu RF

5. R Suarez 3B

6. R Story SS

7. L Mayer/ R Romy 2B

8. R Narvaez C/ L Casas DH or R Campbell DH

9. R Rafaela CF

Now, we'd have a very RHB tilted line-up. (Okamoto is a RHB, too.)

Posted

A perfect fit for the Sox would be Jose Ramirez from the Guardians, but I'm sure they are not looking at trading him. He is 33 and has 3 years of control ($23M adjusted AAV.)

BTV has the switch hitter (career splits both at about .855) worth just $34M, which I find puzzling.

They say Crawford (22) + Campbell (19) would be an overpay, but I'd do it in a heartbeat.

1. L Anthony LF

2. S Ramirez 3B

3. L Duran DH

4. R Contreras 1B/C

5. L Abreu RF

6. R Story SS

7. L Casas 1B/ R Narvaez C

8. L Mayer 2B/ R Romy 2B

9. R Rafaela CF

Posted
7 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

this may be my wildest...

To TBR: Duran ($7.7M), DHam, Wong and Yoshida ($36M/2) + $10M cash

To BOS: Y Diaz ($26M/2) & Jax Griffin ($9M/2)

No on every account.  Diaz is a slightly better hitter, and a righty.  But he is also 34.  Jax was great, but he was sketchy last year.  I seriously doubt Contreras plays any catcher, let alone back-up catcher.  And three years of Duran for two years of Diaz?  No.

Look for a 2B/3B, or a #2 SP, or a really good prospect.

Community Moderator
Posted
5 minutes ago, JoeBrady said:

No on every account.  Diaz is a slightly better hitter, and a righty.  But he is also 34.  Jax was great, but he was sketchy last year.  I seriously doubt Contreras plays any catcher, let alone back-up catcher.  And three years of Duran for two years of Diaz?  No.

Look for a 2B/3B, or a #2 SP, or a really good prospect.

It may work on BTV, but Rays would have no interest in this trade. They wouldn't want to take on two additional 40 man spots. Wong and Masa are net negatives in the trade. Hamilton also probably doesn't start ahead of Palacios in their minds and they've spent a lot of high draft picks on 2b recently. 

Old-Timey Member
Posted
9 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I know some of my trade suggestions are wild, and this may be my wildest...

To TBR: Duran ($7.7M), DHam, Wong and Yoshida ($36M/2) + $10M cash

To BOS: Y Diaz ($26M/2) & Jax Griffin ($9M/2)

The money is about even. The Rays get a 2Bman and catcher. Yoshida replaces Diaz at DH and Duran gives them a pretty cheap star.

We get Diaz to DH, unload Masa and can play Contreras at C, instead of Wong, play Diaz at 1B and DH Campbell or Romy, when Diaz is at 1B. We also get a nice RP'er.

I'm not sure that's the best we can get for Duran, but we do unload Masa without taking on a salary dump in return and we stay even on the budget, which could allow us to still sign Suarez or Okamoto or ...gasp ... Breggie or Bichette.

Let's say we sign Suarez...

1. L Anthony LF

2. R Diaz DH/1B

3. R Contreras 1B/C

4. L Abreu RF

5. R Suarez 3B

6. R Story SS

7. L Mayer/ R Romy 2B

8. R Narvaez C/ L Casas DH or R Campbell DH

9. R Rafaela CF

Now, we'd have a very RHB tilted line-up. (Okamoto is a RHB, too.)

Agree on wildest, and a big NO on the rest. Tampa would most likely take Duran, but no on the rest. You put to much focus on money, and not enough on the want, need, and fit. BTV will accept anything if the values align.

Posted
On 1/2/2026 at 10:02 AM, Old Red said:

Agree on wildest, and a big NO on the rest. Tampa would most likely take Duran, but no on the rest. You put to much focus on money, and not enough on the want, need, and fit. BTV will accept anything if the values align.

Exactly. That's all BTV does, and they seem to overvalue and undervalue several players, so it is what it is. Nobody is pretending it matches what GM want ot need.

Here are a few examples of where I think the get some Sox players' value wrong- some seem way off.

$22M Crawford: Okay, he was pretty good in '23 and led the team in IP in '24. I'm higher on Harrison at $6.6M than Kutter.

$18M Casas: Again, a few years ago, he showed he could hit. They have Romy at $12M. 

These two might be the worst: $11M Cespedes & $10M Romero. Why? Bennett & Harrison are $7M,  Valera is just $6M.

When you take away the salary and look at how they just plain value the players, it looks more realistic, but then guys like Cespedes have zero value. Their rankings of prospects seems suspect, at best. On vets, the years of control is a big component, as it should be:

$240 Crochet, 220 Anthony, 112 Campbell

94 Rafaela, 83 Duran, 79 Mayer, Early, 76 Bello

56 Abreu, 50 Tolle, 41 Narvaez, 36 Whitlock, 35 Kutte

32 Gray, 27 Contreras & Casas, 26 Slaten, 21 Romy

20 Story, 18 Chapman & Sandoval, 14 Harrison, 13 Oviedo

10 Masa, 7 Weissert, 5 Sogard & Wong, 4 Hicks & DHam

0 Everyone else

Old-Timey Member
Posted
On 1/2/2026 at 10:02 AM, Old Red said:

You put to much focus on money, and not enough on the want, need, and fit. BTV will accept anything if the values align.

Do you honestly think money isn’t a bigger factor?  I don’t care if it used to not be or should not be - it’s a huge factor, and in many cases seems to be more important than need and fit.  The Cardinals didn’t trade Sonny Gray because they thought the oft-injured Richard Fitts was a better fit. Even for a rebuilding team, he’s a questionable fit.  His service clock has started, he’s injured far too often, and his overall ability is debatable.  Certainly a rebuilding team would be better off with a non-40 man pitcher.

But Whats not debatable is he made far, far, far (keep repeating as often as possible) less money than Sonny Gray

Old-Timey Member
Posted
2 minutes ago, notin said:

Do you honestly think money isn’t a bigger factor?  I don’t care if it used to not be or should not be - it’s a huge factor, and in many cases seems to be more important than need and fit.  The Cardinals didn’t trade Sonny Gray because they thought the oft-injured Richard Fitts was a better fit. Even for a rebuilding team, he’s a questionable fit.  His service clock has started, he’s injured far too often, and his overall ability is debatable.  Certainly a rebuilding team would be better off with a non-40 man pitcher.

But Whats not debatable is he made far, far, far (keep repeating as often as possible) less money than Sonny Gray

I was talking about BTV values, and not money in the REAL world of baseball, and the swapping of bad contracts for bad contracts. Trying to keep trying to swap Hicks, and Masa on BTV is easy, but not so much in real baseball.

Old-Timey Member
Posted
1 hour ago, Old Red said:

I was talking about BTV values, and not money in the REAL world of baseball, and the swapping of bad contracts for bad contracts. Trying to keep trying to swap Hicks, and Masa on BTV is easy, but not so much in real baseball.

Of course BTV cannot incorporate getting g two GMs to agree.  But overall they do a good job, despite the flaws.  The biggest one is you can make any deal equal out by pumping in ungodly sums of money.

 

But maybe BTV should be a tool for some folks.   So far this off-season, I’ve seen baseball bloggers and podcasters - folks hoping to be taken seriously and using their real names to make it happen - throw around proposals that “made sense for both sides” like Andy Ashby, Nick Mears and Robert Gasser for Jarren Duran, and the even worse “Jake Cronenworth and Wandy Peralta for Brayan Bello”.  And the thing is, that guy used your exact logic - “Boston needs a 2b and a lefty reliever”.  Sure, they do.  But they don’t need two underwater contracts for mediocre players at the expense of a starting pitcher with a lock on a rotation spot.  But, as that Padre dork said “need and fit” for Boston.  And both deals, massively unfair to Boston on BTV and in real life…

Posted
1 hour ago, notin said:

Do you honestly think money isn’t a bigger factor?  I don’t care if it used to not be or should not be - it’s a huge factor, and in many cases seems to be more important than need and fit.  The Cardinals didn’t trade Sonny Gray because they thought the oft-injured Richard Fitts was a better fit. Even for a rebuilding team, he’s a questionable fit.  His service clock has started, he’s injured far too often, and his overall ability is debatable.  Certainly a rebuilding team would be better off with a non-40 man pitcher.

But Whats not debatable is he made far, far, far (keep repeating as often as possible) less money than Sonny Gray

The Gray trade looks similar to the Sale trade, without the injury history.

STL paid us to take him, and they "saved money" by doing so. BTW, I think Clarke was who STL viewed as the prize on their end, kinda like how we viewed Grissom in the Sale trade.

When you put the two Cards trades together, we see this through the eyes of BTV:

To BOS: +5 but skill value or 59.5

+11.1 Gray (Skill value: 32.1)

-6.1 Contreras (Skill: 27.4)

To STL:  +33.5 (Skill: 26.9) -$20M cash=13.5

15.6 Clarke (Skill: 0)

8.6 Fitts (16)

4.5 Dobbins (10.9)

4.8 Fajardo (0)

0.0 Aita (0)

BTV accepts the reverse trade made now.

 

Posted
20 minutes ago, notin said:

But maybe BTV should be a tool for some folks.

I agree.  I make up my own mind, but adding up WAR v salaries is how I come to a conclusion.  BTV does the same thing.  But like any calculation, put it aside for a day, and see if it still makes sense in the morning.

Posted
1 hour ago, JoeBrady said:

I agree.  I make up my own mind, but adding up WAR v salaries is how I come to a conclusion.  BTV does the same thing.  But like any calculation, put it aside for a day, and see if it still makes sense in the morning.

I should try that! LMAO!

Old-Timey Member
Posted
1 hour ago, JoeBrady said:

I agree.  I make up my own mind, but adding up WAR v salaries is how I come to a conclusion.  BTV does the same thing.  But like any calculation, put it aside for a day, and see if it still makes sense in the morning.

I’m sure no MLB teams use BTV itself, but I’m also sure all of them use something similar when evaluating trade possibilities…

Posted
2 hours ago, notin said:

I’m sure no MLB teams use BTV itself, but I’m also sure all of them use something similar when evaluating trade possibilities…

Indeed, and even if a trade fills "a need" very well, while giving away a player in a logjam situation, they still won't make what they feel are significantly unbalanced trades.

They may also disagree with fans and pundits who thing there is a great ned or logjam. For example, Brez might feel totally confident in Romy as the FT 2bman with DHam and Sogard as good enough depth. He may have already decided he doesn't want Masa DH'ing and will trade or demote him, so Duran is the FT DH. Presto: no OF logjam exists. It's only in some fans' minds.

Posted

For what it's worth, here is how fangraph's projects Sox pitchers, if pro-rated to 180 IP:

5.6 Crochet

3.9 Gray

3.3 Early

2.8 Sandoval

2.8 Tolle

2.6 Oviedo

2.2 Crawford

2.2 Bello

2.0 Harrison

If these numbers are close to accurate as projections for full seasons, we have some SP'ers other team would very much want in trade.

(I'm sure other teams have some lower IP guys who would see similar boosts, but I'm not sure how many MLB teams have 9 SP'ers at 2.0 or more.

How about batters at 650 PAs?

3.1 Anthony

3.1 Narvaez

3.0 Rafaela

2.7 Abreu

2.3 Duran

2.1 Contreras & Mayer

2.0 Romy

1.9 Story & Casas

1.7 Campbell

1.3 Yoshida

1.0 Wong & Sogard

Posted

BTV accepts:

Tolle, Campbell ($8M AAV), Bello ($13M AAV), Yoshida ($18M AAV)+ $18M= ($9M AAV)

for

Logan Webb ($23.3 AAV) & Trevor McDonald

We save about $6M.

Sign E Suarez to $66M/3 ($22M AAV) which puts us about $12M over the tax line and $8M below the second line.

SP: Crochet, Webb, Gray, Sandoval, Oviedo (Crawford/Harrison/EarlY)

RP: CHapman, Whitlock, Slaten, McDonald, Weissert, Watson, Hicks, Moran/Kelly

1. L Anthony LF

2. R Contreras 1B/C

3. L Duran DH

4. R Suarez 3B

5. L Abreu RF

6. R Story SS

7. L Mayer/ R Romy 2B

8. R Narvaez C/ L Casas DH

9. R Rafaela CF

Posted
10 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Tolle, Campbell ($8M AAV), Bello ($13M AAV), Yoshida ($18M AAV)+ $18M= ($9M AAV)

for

Logan Webb ($23.3 AAV) & Trevor McDonald

That leaves us with two guys (Bello & Tolle) that might be part of our regular rotation in 2026, and probably definitely part of our 2027 rotation.  That would make our 2027 rotation:

  • Crochet
  • Webb
  • Early
  • Gray (maybe)
  • Witherspoon, Harrison, Sandlin, etc.

I don't think I'd do it, but I also don't think it is that far off.  Unfortunately, SF won't trade their ace whether or not it makes sense.

Posted
4 hours ago, JoeBrady said:

That leaves us with two guys (Bello & Tolle) that might be part of our regular rotation in 2026, and probably definitely part of our 2027 rotation.  That would make our 2027 rotation:

  • Crochet
  • Webb
  • Early
  • Gray (maybe)
  • Witherspoon, Harrison, Sandlin, etc.

I don't think I'd do it, but I also don't think it is that far off.  Unfortunately, SF won't trade their ace whether or not it makes sense.

We'd also have Oviedo, Crawford, Houck, Bennett and Holobetz in the 2027 mix.

I doubt SFG says yes, too.

Posted

Here is a BTV approved trade that sends $6$M of value to CIN and just $47M to BOS, but I'd do it:

To CIN: 46 Duran, 22 Crawford, 1 Hamilton & -18 Hicks +$14M cash.

To BOS: 31 Lodolo & 16 McLain

AAV balance:

$4.6 Lodolo +$2M McLain = $6.6M to BOS

$7.8 Duran+ $2.7 Crawford + $1M DHam + 3.5M Hicks balanced with cash= $15M.

The Sox gain about $8M on the tax line and can maybe afford Breggie or Suarez.

Posted
1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

Here is a BTV approved trade that sends $6$M of value to CIN and just $47M to BOS, but I'd do it:

To CIN: 46 Duran, 22 Crawford, 1 Hamilton & -18 Hicks +$14M cash.

To BOS: 31 Lodolo & 16 McLain

AAV balance:

$4.6 Lodolo +$2M McLain = $6.6M to BOS

$7.8 Duran+ $2.7 Crawford + $1M DHam + 3.5M Hicks balanced with cash= $15M.

The Sox gain about $8M on the tax line and can maybe afford Breggie or Suarez.

swap Abreu for Duran and it's a done deal.

Old-Timey Member
Posted
3 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

Here is a BTV approved trade that sends $6$M of value to CIN and just $47M to BOS, but I'd do it:

To CIN: 46 Duran, 22 Crawford, 1 Hamilton & -18 Hicks +$14M cash.

To BOS: 31 Lodolo & 16 McLain

AAV balance:

$4.6 Lodolo +$2M McLain = $6.6M to BOS

$7.8 Duran+ $2.7 Crawford + $1M DHam + 3.5M Hicks balanced with cash= $15M.

The Sox gain about $8M on the tax line and can maybe afford Breggie or Suarez.

Why are the Sox paying more money than they owe Hicks?  At that point, just keep Hicks.  Otherwise you still have to replace, which isn’t free, and you’re giving up on a guy who had a decent career as an MLB relief pitcher because he didn’t set the world on fire after EIGHTEEN INNINGS in Boston…

Posted
53 minutes ago, notin said:

Why are the Sox paying more money than they owe Hicks?  At that point, just keep Hicks.  Otherwise you still have to replace, which isn’t free, and you’re giving up on a guy who had a decent career as an MLB relief pitcher because he didn’t set the world on fire after EIGHTEEN INNINGS in Boston…

Hicks is owed $24M/2 and the tax nhit is $10.2M x 2.

$24M-$14M= $10M we save and CIN pays.

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