Red Sox sign Alex Bregman

[moonslav59]

I'm hopeful, Devers will hear all the banter and come around to seeing what is best for the team.

Lost in all this is the fact that Bregman has been around as long as Devers and has pride, too. He earned the pride in his defense at 3B. 

If this wasn't about a near best defensive 3Bman vs a near worst defensive 3Bman, maybe the choice would be murkier, but Bregman at 3B clearly makes us better.

If we have to start factoring in how much a pouting Devers might hurt the team, then we find something out about Devers. This should never be part of the equation, but Devers has made it one. 

I'm sure Cora (and maybe Brez) will have a sit-down to try and convince Devers what is best for the team, and maybe try to get him to try a 1Bman's mitt, if he really hates DH, so much. I'm hopeful, Raffy comes around. He does not seem like the pouting type or a super egomaniac. The part that got me is when he said he felt he was a good fielder, last year. "Good" vs what? High school or college?

We should not have to force feed Campbell into the OF, either. There is more to this than just Raffy vs Bregman at 3B.

[jad]

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm hopeful, Devers will hear all the banter and come around to seeing what is best for the team.

Lost in all this is the fact that Bregman has been around as long as Devers and has pride, too. He earned the pride in his defense at 3B. 

If this wasn't about a near best defensive 3Bman vs a near worst defensive 3Bman, maybe the choice would be murkier, but Bregman at 3B clearly makes us better.

If we have to start factoring in how much a pouting Devers might hurt the team, then we find something out about Devers. This should never be part of the equation, but Devers has made it one. 

I'm sure Cora (and maybe Brez) will have a sit-down to try and convince Devers what is best for the team, and maybe try to get him to try a 1Bman's mitt, if he really hates DH, so much. I'm hopeful, Raffy comes around. He does not seem like the pouting type or a super egomaniac. The part that got me is when he said he felt he was a good fielder, last year. "Good" vs what? High school or college?

We should not have to force feed Campbell into the OF, either. There is more to this than just Raffy vs Bregman at 3B.

This sounds like a recipe for disaster.  I can't imagine trying to convince my best employee or colleague that they really need to adjust to the new guy I'm bringing in because I (not them) know what's best for everyone.  Then being sure to bring this up publicly so that EVERYONE (i.e, reporters in this case) begins to harass that employee with their wisdom.  I don't know what's in Devers' head (apparently, a lot of posters here do), but I do know pretty much what a colleague or employee would do in this situation, and it wouldn't be rah rah team team rah rah ...

[moonslav59]

2 minutes ago, jad said:

This sounds like a recipe for disaster.  I can't imagine trying to convince my best employee or colleague that they really need to adjust to the new guy I'm bringing in because I (not them) know what's best for everyone.  Then being sure to bring this up publicly so that EVERYONE (i.e, reporters in this case) begins to harass that employee with their wisdom.  I don't know what's in Devers' head (apparently, a lot of posters here do), but I do know pretty much what a colleague or employee would do in this situation, and it wouldn't be rah rah team team rah rah ...

How many "best employees" lead the industry in mistakes made on the job? 

Then, have that employee say "How dare you try to move me to a new position where mistakes are impossible to make?"

[Old Red]

3 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm hopeful, Devers will hear all the banter and come around to seeing what is best for the team.

Lost in all this is the fact that Bregman has been around as long as Devers and has pride, too. He earned the pride in his defense at 3B. 

If this wasn't about a near best defensive 3Bman vs a near worst defensive 3Bman, maybe the choice would be murkier, but Bregman at 3B clearly makes us better.

If we have to start factoring in how much a pouting Devers might hurt the team, then we find something out about Devers. This should never be part of the equation, but Devers has made it one. 

I'm sure Cora (and maybe Brez) will have a sit-down to try and convince Devers what is best for the team, and maybe try to get him to try a 1Bman's mitt, if he really hates DH, so much. I'm hopeful, Raffy comes around. He does not seem like the pouting type or a super egomaniac. The part that got me is when he said he felt he was a good fielder, last year. "Good" vs what? High school or college?

We should not have to force feed Campbell into the OF, either. There is more to this than just Raffy vs Bregman at 3B.

Right now Raffy feels betrayed, and lied to, and it even appears blindsided. It doesn’t matter to him who told him he’d be the Red Sox 3B for a long time. Bloom, Cora or Brez. To him it was the Boston Red Sox. For Cora to say Bloom isn’t here anymore is how he sees, but not Raffy. Bregman may have been around as long as Raffy, but that was with another team, and most likely that matters nothing to Raffy.. Raffy’s been in the organization since he was a teenager. Unfortunately for the zRed Sox Raffy sees himself as a better 3B than everyone else, but that’s how he sees it. Cora wasn’t surprised by Raffy’s reaction, and neither should anyone else be. He does not seem like the pouting type? Obviously you haven’t seen Raffy stay at 3B when the rest of the IF was having a meeting at the mound🤭 Bregman despite JH lighting up a cigar may only be a one year rental, and might not be worth losing Raffy over. Physically, mentally, or both.

[Hugh2]

Man how quick people are to jump down Raffy's throat, guys been nothing but good since he's been here (except his defense). 

I think it's obvious at this point that the media has blown this story out of proportion. 

Raffy is going to play where the Sox tell him too, even if he's upset he will get over it.  Plenty of other good baseball players have been upset when they've been moved, moved, were fine, and everything was fine with the team.  He's an adult. 

It really feels like Raffy was blindsided by this.  As if the team had never told him he was moving off of third. 

Raffy should move off third, and he will.  But if anyone thinks for one second he doesn't have a right to be upset that they do so without having a conversation with him and he has to find out about it during a press conference then you're just being unreasonable. 

[Old Red]

8 minutes ago, jad said:

This sounds like a recipe for disaster.  I can't imagine trying to convince my best employee or colleague that they really need to adjust to the new guy I'm bringing in because I (not them) know what's best for everyone.  Then being sure to bring this up publicly so that EVERYONE (i.e, reporters in this case) begins to harass that employee with their wisdom.  I don't know what's in Devers' head (apparently, a lot of posters here do), but I do know pretty much what a colleague or employee would do in this situation, and it wouldn't be rah rah team team rah rah ...

Well said. Bregman is a good player, but he’s no Mike Schmidt, or Manny with the bat either. Raffy’s actions was predictable as predictable can be in this case, but how it turns out isn’t.

[Hugh2]

7 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

How many "best employees" lead the industry in mistakes made on the job? 

Then, have that employee say "How dare you try to move me to a new position where mistakes are impossible to make?"

If someone was hired to replace an aspect of your job that you like and you had to hear about it on live TV taken by surprise how do you think you would react?

Devers SHOULD move off of third if they ask, and he ultimately will.  But if they've had no conversations with him about it then he has every right to be upset about that. 

[Old Red]

1 minute ago, Hugh2 said:

Man how quick people are to jump down Raffy's throat, guys been nothing but good since he's been here (except his defense). 

I think it's obvious at this point that the media has blown this story out of proportion. 

Raffy is going to play where the Sox tell him too, even if he's upset he will get over it.  Plenty of other good baseball players have been upset when they've been moved, moved, were fine, and everything was fine with the team.  He's an adult. 

It really feels like Raffy was blindsided by this.  As if the team had never told him he was moving off of third. 

Raffy should move off third, and he will.  But if anyone thinks for one second he doesn't have a right to be upset that they do so without having a conversation with him and he has to find out about it during a press conference then you're just being unreasonable. 

👍👍👍 Well said too.

[Hugh2]

1 minute ago, Old Red said:

Well said. Bregman is a good player, but he’s no Mike Schmidt, or Manny with the bat either. Raffy’s actions was predictable as predictable can be in this case, but how it turns out isn’t.

I don't believe anything that has happened can't be rectified. 

My experience as a boss is probably complete irrelevant as I pay people between 50-75k but hey maybe it's all the same. 

If I was the Sox brass I would sit down with Raffy and apologize to him.  Let him know that he IS moving to DH (perhaps still get 40-50 games in the field) but they should of had a conversation with him earlier.  Let him know that he is an important part of their organization and their team, and that they're paying him $30 million a year. 

Devers may not have liked moving off of third either way, but he would have done it and this only makes it worse.  A sincere apology goes a long way. 

[Old Red]

12 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

I don't believe anything that has happened can't be rectified. 

My experience as a boss is probably complete irrelevant as I pay people between 50-75k but hey maybe it's all the same. 

If I was the Sox brass I would sit down with Raffy and apologize to him.  Let him know that he IS moving to DH (perhaps still get 40-50 games in the field) but they should of had a conversation with him earlier.  Let him know that he is an important part of their organization and their team, and that they're paying him $30 million a year. 

Devers may not have liked moving off of third either way, but he would have done it and this only makes it worse.  A sincere apology goes a long way. 

I agree. For Cora to say there is new leadership now, and Bloom is in St. Louis was not was not a good statement to make to soothe the situation.

[Hitch]

My main worry is that Devers feels disconnected from the game, only getting at bats. I'd HATE to be a DH and not be involved in every play. I can only imagine how a professional of his age and talent feels at the idea of sitting on his ass for most of every game. I hope that doesn't affect his hitting. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'm not sticking up for Raffy, but I'm not even thinking about trading him, either.

Right now it's awkward, but Bregman and Devers are linked together -- not only because of one position on the field, but also in their inevitable positions in the batting order. They are the Red Sox' two best hitters (no disrespect to Duran, but no one wants to face the other two with the game on the line).

This may be a situation where AB's clubhouse skills can contribute -- he actually cited Raffy's inside-the-park homer in the '17 playoffs as his most electrifying Fenway moment -- and maybe he can help make peace by deferring and reiterating he'll play wherever. 

If not, maybe a positive will be that the situation forces Devers to be more vocal in his role as the face of the franchise.

[Hitch]

One of the issues is - Devers was vocal about the club needing to invest in better players (rightly so), so he can't really complain when the better players that do come in are also requiring him to move as the worst starting 3rd baseman in baseball. 

[Old Red]

5 minutes ago, Hitch said:

My main worry is that Devers feels disconnected from the game, only getting at bats. I'd HATE to be a DH and not be involved in every play. I can only imagine how a professional of his age and talent feels at the idea of sitting on his ass for most of every game. I hope that doesn't affect his hitting. 

Good point. Not everyone can function as a FT DH.

[Hugh2]

6 minutes ago, Hitch said:

My main worry is that Devers feels disconnected from the game, only getting at bats. I'd HATE to be a DH and not be involved in every play. I can only imagine how a professional of his age and talent feels at the idea of sitting on his ass for most of every game. I hope that doesn't affect his hitting. 

I think they could allow Devers to either remain at 3B for 1/3 of the games or start exposing him to 1B and let Casas DH a little. 

There's a chance that Bregman opts out and we need a 3B next year.  

[Hitch]

6 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

I think they could allow Devers to either remain at 3B for 1/3 of the games or start exposing him to 1B and let Casas DH a little. 

There's a chance that Bregman opts out and we need a 3B next year.  

Yeah, a lot up in the air at the moment. Playing time at 1B feels like the obvious compromise and I don't want Raffy on 3rd next year regardless. I think the chance of Bregman opting out is limited, but we'll see. 

 

edit to add: Devers was asked about playing 1st yesterday and gave a firm no.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

3 minutes ago, Hitch said:

One of the issues is - Devers was vocal about the club needing to invest in better players (rightly so), so he can't really complain when the better players that do come in are also requiring him to move as the worst starting 3rd baseman in baseball. 

...like the old slow-pitch softball team, originally formed by a group of close friends. We were pretty good, but could never beat the champs, who always stockpiled the best ringers from other clubs.

"We could recruit ringers, too," someone suggested. 

"Ya, we'd finally be Number One," another replied, "... but none of us would get to play."

[harmony]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

Devers would have had more games if not for 2020. 

20.4 fWAR - Sandoval (2.6 average ages 25-27)

25.5 fWAR - Devers (4.2 average ages 25-27)

Trending "somewhat better" is being much too kind to Pablo. 

A more encouraging comp might be David Ortiz in his age 27 season.

Here are the platoon splits for Rafael Devers and Ortiz in their age 27 seasons:

RD vs. RHP 377 PA, 24 HR, .293/.385/.601/.986

RD vs. LHP 224 PA, 4 HR, .240/.304/.382/.686

DO vs. RHP 386 PA, 27 HR, .313/.404/.654/1.058

DO vs. LHP 123 PA, 4 HR, .216/.260/.414/.674

In their age 27 seasons Ortiz posted an OPS+ of 144 and Devers an OPS+ of 134.

[Bellhorn04]

18 hours ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

This is reminiscent of the offseason when the Sox thought they had ARod to replace Nomar, and in an interview Millar said he preferred ARod at shortstop... but then the trades didn't happen, Nomar pouted for half a season (not just from turning down a $60 million dollar offer he'd never sniff again), and Epstein had to trade him.

Now that Theo is back, maybe he advised all not to alienate Raffy until they knew for sure Bregman is signed, and then deal with it and resolve it in Spring Training -- before the games count. 

What is happening now may be part of the plan, or at least expected.

I think this is an excellent observation.  They had no way of knowing if they'd be landing Bregman or Arenado or not.  There was apparently a LOT of doubt that Bregman would sign with us.

[Hugh2]

29 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Yeah, a lot up in the air at the moment. Playing time at 1B feels like the obvious compromise and I don't want Raffy on 3rd next year regardless. I think the chance of Bregman opting out is limited, but we'll see. 

 

edit to add: Devers was asked about playing 1st yesterday and gave a firm no.

I think there's a decent chance he doesn't opt out, but if he wants more money it should be easy. 

All he has to do is get more than 125 to get more than what he'd have this year at 165. 

If a few teams were willing to give him 165/6 this year.   Why wouldn't someone give him 140/6 or 130/5 next year?

I do think there's a good chance he stays for two years though. 

[notin]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

How many "best employees" lead the industry in mistakes made on the job? 

Probably all of them, because “best employees” are often workaholics who put in far too many hours…

[Hugh2]

35 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Yeah, a lot up in the air at the moment. Playing time at 1B feels like the obvious compromise and I don't want Raffy on 3rd next year regardless. I think the chance of Bregman opting out is limited, but we'll see. 

 

edit to add: Devers was asked about playing 1st yesterday and gave a firm no.

I also heard from people who speak Spanish that the translation was not very good at all.  We are all assuming a lot based on a s*** translation. 

Maybe he thought he was being asked if he'd would like to play 1B which is far different from will you play there. 

Maybe he thought he was being asked if he's been WORKING on 1B, which he hasn't.  

A lot gets lost in translation.  Media jumped on it and people are blowing this up to be bigger than it needs to be right now. 

[Hugh2]

Just now, notin said:

Probably all of them, because “best employees” are often workaholics who put in far too many hours…

Sometimes you put your best employees on the toughest tasks, so more error is and should be expected. 

Obviously apples and oranges here because Raffy is not good at defense. 

[Hitch]

7 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

I think there's a decent chance he doesn't opt out, but if he wants more money it should be easy. 

All he has to do is get more than 125 to get more than what he'd have this year at 165. 

If a few teams were willing to give him 165/6 this year.   Why wouldn't someone give him 140/6 or 130/5 next year?

I do think there's a good chance he stays for two years though. 

My feeling is he really wants to win and would lose a little money-wise to make that happen. Short of the Dodgers calling (and maybe the Mets), we feel best primed to take multiple stabs at winning a championship over the next 4 or 5 years. (3 specifically for him) 

Queue up an 81-81 season. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

36 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I think this is an excellent observation.  They had no way of knowing if they'd be landing Bregman or Arenado or not.  There was apparently a LOT of doubt that Bregman would sign with us.

Thanks, I heard Tom Caron repeat the Nomar parallel on the Red Sox Report last night. 

But I don't like Tom any more, because he keeps rubbing in it how New England viewers are shoveling snow and sanding sidewalks while he's getting a suntan. 

Last night I helped the neighbor push an Amazon driver out of his driveway, after he got stuck delivering rock salt. Hey, T.C. -- we get you're so lucky to be "working" in Florida right now. Just don't bust my balls about it.

[mvp 78]

14 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

Sometimes you put your best employees on the toughest tasks, so more error is and should be expected. 

Obviously apples and oranges here because Raffy is not good at defense. 

That's not what Raffy thinks.

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Thanks, I heard Tom Caron repeat the Nomar parallel on the Red Sox Report last night. 

But I don't like Tom any more, because he keeps rubbing in it how New England viewers are shoveling snow and sanding sidewalks while he's getting a suntan. 

Last night I helped the neighbor push an Amazon driver out of his driveway, after he got stuck delivering rock salt. Hey, Tom -- we get you're so lucky to be "working" in Florida right now. Just don't bust my balls about it.

I think it's a little bit of a stretch to compare it to the Nomar situation. I remember listening to the radio when Nomar's bizarre interview happened in Spring Training. He was really pissed off and showed that he really didn't want to be there at all. Raffy isn't at that spot yet. He came in early to camp and still believes in this team. 

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

Right now Raffy feels betrayed, and lied to, and it even appears blindsided. It doesn’t matter to him who told him he’d be the Red Sox 3B for a long time. Bloom, Cora or Brez. To him it was the Boston Red Sox. For Cora to say Bloom isn’t here anymore is how he sees, but not Raffy. Bregman may have been around as long as Raffy, but that was with another team, and most likely that matters nothing to Raffy.. Raffy’s been in the organization since he was a teenager. Unfortunately for the zRed Sox Raffy sees himself as a better 3B than everyone else, but that’s how he sees it. Cora wasn’t surprised by Raffy’s reaction, and neither should anyone else be. He does not seem like the pouting type? Obviously you haven’t seen Raffy stay at 3B when the rest of the IF was having a meeting at the mound🤭 Bregman despite JH lighting up a cigar may only be a one year rental, and might not be worth losing Raffy over. Physically, mentally, or both.

When I say I don't think he is the pouting type, it's just my opinion. He seems like a happy-go-lucky type person. Sure, he is upset, and may show signs of that for a while, but how long that goes on will determine if he's "pouting" or not. Of course, none of us know how he will continue feeling, if we decide to move him, and that's why I made sure I worded my statement like an opinion and said the words "seems like."

If this comes to the point where he is being very stubborn or even says he will want to be traded, if moved, then we move into a whole new realm on the decision, and my opinion on Devers will change 180.

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Hugh2 said:

If someone was hired to replace an aspect of your job that you like and you had to hear about it on live TV taken by surprise how do you think you would react?

Devers SHOULD move off of third if they ask, and he ultimately will.  But if they've had no conversations with him about it then he has every right to be upset about that. 

I totally understand Raffy being upset, especially in light of hearing him say he had a "really good" defensive season, last year.

I have said the same thing: they should have spoken to him, as soon as they felt Bregman coming to Boston was a real possibility. (Maybe they always felt Bregman was a longshot, so they felt, why upset Raffy over nothing, but waiting a few days after signing him was not wise.

I hope Raffy decides to do what is best for the team. There is one aspect to this situation that is not really pertinent: Devers does not need to stay at 3B to build up value for a big FA payday, ahead. He has his big contract that will pay him the same, whether he's a DH, a 1Bman or a 3Bman.

I hope this does not turn into a long-standing cluster ____.

[jad]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

How many "best employees" lead the industry in mistakes made on the job? 

Then, have that employee say "How dare you try to move me to a new position where mistakes are impossible to make?"

Yup.  You're making the best possible argument for my case.  Just keep bringing this up and be sure to tell the reporters to keep asking him this.  I'm SURE that will turn him into the team player of your dreams.

(My best colleagues, btw, were often the ones who make the most mistakes.  The worst ones made no waves.)